More fermentation temperature reproach

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
applescrap said:
Sure ok...you ask I'll answer, thats an honest post. I appreciate your genuineness and am sorry if my responses come off as not nice, im tired and quite frankly tired of this ridiculous beat down over my thinking.
Click to expand...

Why do you keep it going then?
 
I love talking and discussing brewing as well as finding new methods. I think there is a lot of good information on this thread worthy of consideration.
 
I put gelatin in it. Tomorrow night will see. The cascade hops are definitely adding a fruit character making it hard to determine warm ferment effects. Also the freshness is playing a role in determining its different flavors. Finally, if i got better than 75 percent efficiency and i wouldnt bet against that, it is fairly strong; which is also making it difficult to determine yeast effects. Finally i was tasting it warm and that aint helping anything. Regardless of anything its enjoyable i think.

I lost .7 gallons of wort in 11 pounds grain (I squeeze my sack hard) and my mesh bag isn't world class, so I think some of those things could be affecting clarity at least in the short term. Almost all the beer I make clears over the time in keg, but I am not overly opposed to gelatin. Two changes in my process throughout this thread: camden tablets and gelatin.
 
stadtbrau said:
The temp in the fermentation chamber dipped a little low briefly at the beginning of fermentation, approx 50 degrees, for 10 days. (Likely not significant)
Afterwards I dropped this beer to 34 degrees for a few weeks as I didn't have an empty keg available at the time (poor planning on my part) but I doubt it did anything.
Click to expand...


All of that is absolutely significant lol. You fermented at lager temp, brought it up for a diacetyl rest then started lagering. That's a bit different than what the OP has been doing riding the whole thing out in the 60s.
 
KeyWestBrewing said:
All of that is absolutely significant lol. You fermented at lager temp, brought it up for a diacetyl rest then started lagering. That's a bit different than what the OP has been doing riding the whole thing out in the 60s.
Click to expand...

I think he was being sarcastic bro.
 
There have to be others who have tried this. Would love to hear their experiences. Over 8k views now, awesome. Reviewed michael dawson blog on northern brewer, he claims this process worked for him and that he would try it again. As it gets cold in denver i will no doubt be able to try again at a lower temperature somewhere in the house. This lager i think 7 days was pushing it, but we'll see. Cheers
 
applescrap said:
Oops blog...

https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2012/01/time-to-brew-rye-maibock-un-lager-experiment/
Click to expand...

I don't understand your point, these are two temperature temp controlled beers one with a ale yeast and one with a lager (conveniently cut out by your screenshot) although at higher than typical lager temps and were lagered.

https://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/2012/01/time-to-brew-rye-maibock-un-lager-experiment/ said:
S2-B: fermentation with Wyeast 2124

Yeah, this is a lager yeast – Bohemian Lager. Once, over pints, my homebrewing friends in the lab at Wyeast confided something counterintuitive: they have had good results brewing lager-ish beers using this strain fermented at ale temps. Whaa? Let’s make a 1500 mL yeast starter on a stir plate and give it a shot.

Primary fermentation at 66-68 F. Very vigorous with lots of rotten-egg sulfur coming from the airlock 18 hours in – it being a lager yeast, I took this aroma as a good sign.
Click to expand...

Note their conculusion is
2124, I hypothesize that a true lager fermentation would have lowered the ester profile even further and smoothed out some of the rough edges, but this is definitely tasty
Click to expand...

In addition from Wyeast:
https://www.wyeastlab.com/rw_yeaststrain_detail.cfm?ID=30 said:
This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range. It may also be used for Common beer production with fermentations at 65-68°F (18-20°C). A thorough diacetyl rest is recommended after fermentation is complete.
Click to expand...

Common beer = steam beer =/ lager
 
jddevinn said:
I don't understand your point
Click to expand...

Neither does he. He's stuck in a loop of defending his practices even though people are simply taking issue with his continued brewing of steam beer, calling it a helles, and saying it's indistinguishable from a commercial helles.
 
So here we are at the end, my friends, and people who have been ignored. A simplest of beers, the most humblest of proof that g-d loves us. A brew that wasn't brewed to win a competition. No, a brew that a person makes as part of ones life. Consider this paradigm shift, just like making a cake or pizza dough. Just another chore. Threw lager yeast in and made some beer! This beer is killer. First off it was 14 dollars for the batch. Whats the problem there. True it is not a helles or a basic lager. In fact ibu calculators estimate 1.5 oz of cascade at 27/28 ibus for 45 minute boil. I think with the power of a 5500 watt element isomerization was stronger than that and plausibly could have equaled the 60 minute boil ibu of 30+. Couple that with the brewing method potentially making a 6 % plus beer and you have .....a pale ale lager. Slightly hazy, beautifully crisp and golden. A pale ale lager. This is not an ale period. It is different than an ale, cleaner and better in my opinion. Just like cystal 60 or jolly ranchers the yeast is an ingredient imo. Which one you choose matters. I like this clean fermenting lager yeast. Its not better or worse than ale yeast, its just different. Just like you could add coffee or orange flavor. You can use lager or ale yeast.


The great debate, how does it do warm. Well Fermentis put up to 72 degrees on the packet, and i have made 2 now, and marshall and company has tested it 5 times, and michael dawson from northern brewer has done it, and there is a proverbial s..t ton of anecdotal evidence like mine, and not one, not one piece of evidence other than some one said it was true, has been offered so everyone is free to think what they want. Thats it, either you agree, disagree, or are on the fence. I may very well change my mind some day too!


8k plus views for these quirky and thoughtful posts. I have poured hours of time and work into long answers and detailed responses. Like me, dont like me, agree, disagree, i hope there is enough value in what i have added here that at least a little deference is given if not enjoyment somewhere along the way. I look forward to seeing you on future threads for people who want to brew warm lagers and make beer quick. In that clip I offered John Palmer states beer is science and art. I think many people who have posted here overlook the art of homebrew and focus only on the science. And that is ok because ultimately this process and beer making should be whatever soothes the soul and makes one happy.

Throughout this thread the concept of best came up over and over. What is the best? The commercial version, a cold lagered beer, an ice cold keystone light after a hard days work, the most expensive beers at the liquor store, your first beer with your father, the first time you order a beer at a baseball game, ipas, stouts, and sours. What really is the best. I can assure you that the best ingredients make better beer. Especially water considering it makes up the majority of the product. Are we talking about the best process? What is the best process? what the large breweries do, having the most expensive equipment, the processes prescribed by professors of Brewing. At $0.25 a beer and made in two and a half hours I think my process is very good for homebrewers. Im not saying it's right for you and I'm not saying it's the best. Just that it's pretty good. Perhaps someday I will have a total change of heart and Brew completely differently. I doubt that as what I'm interested in now is going to 30 Minute Mash and boil and getting the brew day under 2 hours. So there you go that's it. Cheers and happy brewing!
 
FYI, regardless how much power your element can provide, the wort only gets to 212 degrees. So, element power alone isn't going to affect your hop utilization.

Beer looks very drinkable. I don't like any yeast flavor in my beer (hefe's = yech), so if that cloudiness is yeast then it's not for me. But if those are hop proteins, bring it on :) I like to make clear beers, even dark ones, but it's hard to get hoppy beers clear without a lot of cellaring time.
 
passedpawn said:
FYI, regardless how much power your element can provide, the wort only gets to 212 degrees. So, element power alone isn't going to affect your hop utilization.

Beer looks very drinkable. I don't like any yeast flavor in my beer (hefe's = yech), so if that cloudiness is yeast then it's not for me. But if those are hop proteins, bring it on :) I like to make clear beers, even dark ones, but it's hard to get hoppy beers clear without a lot of cellaring time.
Click to expand...

Good point, on its own, element power doesn't have any effect, unless it's too weak to provide a sufficient boil.

I'm also with you on cloudy beers like the ones he's brewing. I don't like yeasty beers at all. Even in my FG samples, I have a hard time deciding if the final flavor is going to be ok (and even doubt how good the batch is) because of all of the suspended yeast. But especially for any lager style, I prefer crystal clear.
 
applescrap said:
Just like cystal 60 or jolly ranchers the yeast is an ingredient imo. Which one you choose matters.
Click to expand...

But I thought you said 2-row and pinch of hops will taste like 2-row and pinch of hops, irrespective of the yeast?
 
In about 4 weeks I will be doing my first brews in my new 1bbl brewery. 2 batches. The two recipes I have brewed the most these past 10+ years of brewing. Going from 10 gallon all grain and using 5 gallon buckets for fermenters fermenting in a cool basement, to 31 gallons and 1bbl SS conical fermenters not in a basement but I believe the air temps will be in the low to mid 60's.

It will still be awhile till I can get a glycol system up and running so these first batches will be temp controlled by the ambient air temp.

Now my wife and I know these beers we've been drinking them for years. So I will record the temps both airwise and the fermenters. Then when they are finished I will give you a report on the differences.
 
applescrap said:
Better for you = better for me, I see cold crashing and gelatin in my brewing future.

I still remain very curious about the qualities of super fresh beer right from the fermenter. Any thoughts?
Click to expand...

I'm not a fan, due to the suspended yeast. I never drink hefeweisen for this reason. Yea, I cold crash and gelatin every beer I make (I've stopped using gelatin on IPAs though).

I've had beer right from the bright tanks in germany. Same. While it's clearly "fresh", it isn't ideal. I like to wait till the yeast is out of the picture. Then, game on!
 
Thats why I need a better pipeline. Next time I'm going to make 10 gallons. Give some beers a little more time
 
seabass07 said:
people are simply taking issue with his continued brewing of steam beer, calling it a helles,
Click to expand...

Oh stfu. You don't make a steam beer simply by fermenting a lager yeast warm. Steam beer is a style and lagers are types. The differentiation is the yeast used and not the temperature fermented.
This argument is idiotic on its face. Do you ever say, that beer is not an ale it's a stout? Sounds pretty stupid, no?
 
Last edited:
woah whats going on in this thread? so much hostility maaan.. anyway sounds like a good idea to me. a lot of brewing dogma is belief. and even top science labs have difficulty replicating the simplest experiments perfectly so my two cents are that if you like the idea of a particular method try it. if you like the results keep doing it. thats why i come here, to see what others have done and find out if it worked. as far as naming of things well, that is the definition of semantics.
 
divrack said:
woah whats going on in this thread? so much hostility maaan.. anyway sounds like a good idea to me. a lot of brewing dogma is belief. and even top science labs have difficulty replicating the simplest experiments perfectly so my two cents are that if you like the idea of a particular method try it. if you like the results keep doing it. thats why i come here, to see what others have done and find out if it worked. as far as naming of things well, that is the definition of semantics.
Click to expand...

I just can't stand the self-absorbed snobs. If you use a helles grain bill, noble hops, and lager yeast then you will make a helles! It's pretty simple. Warm temps may make a particularly bad helles (or not) but it would still be helles. My $0.02 anyway.
 
So. What makes a lager beer a “lager”? The only criteria for a “Lager beer” is cold maturation ...even for top fermented lager beers. Recipe ingredients, yeast species, fermentation temp, length of storage or any other self induced constraint cannot be criteria. Here’s why:

Does a certain malt have to be used? If so, which ones? What about all the lagers found in the style guide and the marketplace that don’t use those malts? (e.g. in Germany lagers were brewed with Pils malt with no adjuncts but in the US 6 row with rice and corn were used). So, no, it can’t be the grain bill.

...or Noble hops at a certain IBU level? Different lagers from different countries vary widely on hops and bitterness so it can’t be hops or IBU that defines a “lager” (e.g. New Zealand Pilsner — yum!)

Is it the yeast? If it’s “lager” yeast — which one? Even the yeast labs are finding out some of their yeasts that were thought to be lager yeasts used for centuries to make lager beer are actually ale yeast. ...and others have some DNA from ale yeast making them at a minimum a hybrid. What about obergäriges lagerbier (top-fermented lager beer)? Hmmm, Germans acknowledge top fermented lagers so it can’t be the yeast.

Is it fermentation temp control? I control my ale fermentation temps. Are they lagers because I control temp? No, I don’t think so. So, it can’t be temp control that defines a “lager” (though I highly recommend fermentation temp control).

Is it the fermentation temp itself? If so can the higher limit in the mfr suggested range be used or does it have to be the lower limit in the range? ...or somewhere in between? It can’t be cold temp fermentation: the most widely used lager yeast strain in the world from "The World's Oldest Brewery" — the gold standard in lager breweries — has an upper temp recommendation at ~70*F. Others lager yeast do as well. So... is 65*F low enough to make it legal? It’s within the range and we do have obergäriges lagerbier. So an upper limit of ~65*F fits fairly nicely but that’s too high for other lager yeast. Hmmm.

Or is it storage at a certain storage temp? Based on the term “lager” which means to store or storehouse maybe this is it. At least the Cold Maturation makes the term obergäriges lagerbier legit. If so, what temp makes it a legal lager? Is 33*F OK? What about 35*F? Is 41*F crossing the line?

And how long does this cold storage have to be? The old German brewers could not legally brew in the Summer but they drank all Summer long under the shade of those Chestnut trees they planted above the caves to help keep the caves (and themselves) cool. How did the beer last all Summer? Lagering. ...but the beers drank early weren’t stored nearly as long as those that were consumed at the end of Summer. So does a week count? Or a month? Or 6 weeks? Or only three months? If so, what were the lagers called early on? Were they not lagers? Of course they were. Time may have made them better — some say cleaner or crisper — but when your thirsty and the beer has cleared — it’s been long enough. When cold maturation is complete there’s no other reason to wait.

Cheers!
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Tony B
WLP830 question
Replies
13
Views
573
Tony B
Tony B
csantoni
Conditioning with or without carbonating
Replies
13
Views
538
csantoni
csantoni
S
Lager fermentation temp interrupted by vacation
Replies
7
Views
429
AlexKay
A
U
Lager Yeast Pitching Temperature
Replies
11
Views
753
bailey mountain brewer
bailey mountain brewer
SFC Rudy
Secondary Fermentation Yes, no or maybe?
Replies
10
Views
563
hottpeper13
H
Brewer's Friend 300

Latest posts

Back
Top