More fermentation temperature reproach

[geoffey]

I'm perplexed by this thread. Why start a thread to discuss the lack of temp control if you're not at all willing to objectively consider anyone else's opinions on the matter? Over and over again when any others have listed a reason or a source for why temp control matters you either ignore it, suggest you've already done enough reading or disregard the opinion/source. You accuse people of being rude to you and at the same time continue to ignore the advice given to you about using proper grammar and punctuation.

It's like trying to argue logically with a five year old.

Hey, cool that you like what you make. Doesn't matter a bit to me if you like your beer or think it's as good as commercial beers made using professional temp control. I have absolutely zero faith in your palette, so can not take any of your comments about the quality of your beer seriously.

This point was made before (and you chose to write it off because commercial brewing practices apparently have no bearing whatsoever on homebrew practices), but if temp control didn't matter then commercial breweries wouldn't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on them. That's about the best evidence there is out there that temp control matters. So you tell me, since you're the one who started this discussion and have read most of Palmers book and at least one more: why does every commercial brewery across the globe waste money on temp control systems for their fermentation? If it really didn't matter as you suggest, why are breweries across the world all wasting so much money on it? Are they all wrong? Are they?

Again, cool that you like what you make. No arguments from me there. But sorry, you've completely failed to convince me that temp control doesn't matter. You've offered nothing to the overall discussion. You've convinced me that you're someone who likes to start arguments and doesn't take criticism very well.

 

[applescrap]

According to the yeast packets, 24 degree range is sufficient. When i get my 1000 bbl system, ill call you for advice. I havent ignored any of this opinion. Its a given isnt it that temperature control works. What isn't given is how much it matters, thus the discussion. You make some good points through your insults. Breweries should consider how much they spend on temperature control. I would if i owned one obviously.

 

[applescrap]

Expected to get a little flack on my brewing process, thoughts? I cant believe im saying this, but i am considering getting a hydrometer. Im want to try 30 or even shorter mashes and boil. Also i want to make a party-girl ris. I want to know efficiency etc in both of those scenarios.

 

[The_Bishop]

Jesus, you're just a petulant, childlike troll. Welcome to my ignore list.

 

[8rnw8]

I really want to leave this thread but can not seem to get myself.

It's like a train wreck, i think the OP is literally only trolling and spouting idiocy, but I can't look away.

Like watching a chimpanzee debate politics.

 

[geoffey]

Ive got a few more points here.

Pku

I have already answered all this. So i was speaking about commercial brewing? Really? Go fly a kite. When im at gourmet on gore this weekend in vail eating duck sliders from sweet basil like i have pretty much every year for the last 12. I hope my pallette works. Im not responding to garbage like this anymore

How is it even possible you could so completely miss the point so often??? You weren't talking about commercial brewing, therefore what commercial breweries do regarding temp control doesn't matter? Yep, that's pretty logical. (This is why people are coming across as harsh to you, you completely dismiss their points without defending your position and with no regard to logic).

So you eat fancy food, therefore you have refined palette? Is that how it works? Cool.

One interesting point about the brulosopher experiment you referred to from the get go: their experiments were all done under very controlled conditions. His high end temp range for that "lager" yeast was 66f. That's a bit different from no temp control at all in an environment you don't even know what the temp is.

Also, his experiments are tested in a way where the testers know nothing at all about the beers or what the differentiators are. He calls it a statistical difference when 14 out of 26 people can correctly tell the difference in a triangle test. I get why, but just keep that in mind. It means if 10 people in that group CAN tell a difference between the beers it's not statistically enough of a difference. My point is: if you took those same two beers side by side and served them to a beer judge (or anyone) and told them specifically what the differences were they would taste it with an eye toward fermentation flavor profile and would likely find more of a difference in the beers. Yes, that makes their judging more biased, I really get it. But my point is that this more closet mimics what happens in real life: Brewers brew beer with different variables and taste them side by side to see which one is better, fully aware of what the variables are.

So yes, the brulosopher experiments are interesting. And you can take what you want from them. But they don't nearly tell the whole story.

 

[specharka]

Everybody feels so free to ask me questions, but very few have answered mine. Here are some questions, you don't have to post them but i hope they give you something to think about.

Are you married to your process and system? If so why?
No, if someone proposes a faster/easier/better process improvement I would be glad to make the jump. I took fast lagering to heart and it's given me some excellent beers.

Why do you do the things you do in brewing?
Research, reading blogs, and of course, this forum.

How do you know that some of these processes are the only way?
I don't. I'm not willing to profess my methods as the best, but they are mine.

Have you ever made a warm ferment lager? If not how do you know it won't work?
No. It might work but I'm unwilling to risk a five gallon batch on experimentation.

Have you ever tasted a warm ferment lager? If not how do you know what it tastes like?
No, but I'd be happy to try one. However, a Munich dunkel has enough malty character that it would probably mask any off flavors arising from warm fermentation.

How often do you change the way you brew?
About as frequently as I encounter issues. I keep a detailed log of lessons learned to encourage me not to make the same mistakes twice.

How willing are you to change the way you brew?
Very.

Have you tasted every grain in your LHBS?
For the most part. I'm not big on smoked or crystal malt so I have my limits.

What is your pony in this conversation anyways?
I'd like to contribute more but I am honestly having trouble understanding most of your posts.

Do you trust the way people brew?
For the most part. I don't take anecdotal evidence as gospel, though. One of the more unfortunate consequences of the age of the internet is that everyone professes expertise, so it can be tough to wade through misinformation to arrive at something meaningful. Which is why that individuals like Marshall Schott are so uniquely positioned to change the landscape of homebrewing by challenging the preconceived notions that have clung to the hobby.

Why does the beer someone makes have to be the best?
I think homebrewing is a teleological hobby. If you are going to invest in equipment, time, and ingredients, it probably makes sense to achieve the best possible product for your efforts.

I will think of more, this is a good start

This is actually a very thoughtful post. Answers above.
Here's my most recent lager, an o-fest...
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1472929926.511702.jpg

 

[g-star]

Since this thread is such a disaster it would be great if you didn't post again.

Likewise

 

[applescrap]

looks tasty. Did you fine it?

 

[jddevinn]

I agree, this is both the most coherent and well formatted post by you in this thread.

Everybody feels so free to ask me questions, but very few have answered mine. Here are some questions, you don't have to post them but i hope they give you something to think about.

Are you married to your process and system? If so why?

No I constantly change my process as I gain more knowledge and revise equipment. I started with a Kal Electric style system using carboys and a chest freezer. I've built other equipment and now use conicals and a glycol chiller to ferment. I've done experimental batches with different methods. Post fermentation oxygen control has made the biggest difference in my beer quality and stability so far.

Why do you do the things you do in brewing?

I've read several books, some of them contradictory. Lots of stuff in Palmer's book (especially the free online version) and other homebrew books are contradicted by actual textbooks. I read and learned A LOT on this forum before I built any system.

How do you know that some of these processes are the only way?

The way I do things are NOT the ONLY way. However, some things such as best practices in O2 control, yeast quality, pitch amounts, temperature control, recipe calculations and so on aren't process variables they are a know science. How you go about following the science is your process.

Have you ever made a warm ferment lager? If not how do you know it won't work?

No. It will work but have off flavors. I know this because of the immense amount of evidence in published works, countered only by your empirical experience.

Have you ever tasted a warm ferment lager? If not how do you know what it tastes like?

No, see above. If you want to send me one I'll taste it.

How often do you change the way you brew?

Whenever I feel it is necessary, or whenever I build equipment to do something that I've been wanting to do. I've recently done several batches following the recommendations in the paper On Brewing Bavarian Helles:
Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing released my the guys at the German Brewing Forum to mixed results and will continue experimenting with the method, including natural fermentation in kegs.

How willing are you to change the way you brew?

If i have a reason to.

Have you tasted every grain in your LHBS?

No, I'm not going to walk around putting my hands in things and trying them. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.

What is your pony in this conversation anyways?

You posted in a technical discussion forum on Brewing Fermentation & yeast, did you not want a discussion?

Do you trust the way people brew?

To the extent that I trust there cooking. Trying their beer isn't going to hurt me.... but there is a chance it isn't good.

Why does the beer someone makes have to be the best?

Why would I go through the effort to make beer and not make it as good as I can? I'm not going to buy a steak and bring it home and microwave it!!

 

[geoffey]

I agree, this is both the most coherent and well formatted post by you in this thread.







No I constantly change my process as I gain more knowledge and revise equipment. I started with a Kal Electric style system using carboys and a chest freezer. I've built other equipment and now use conicals and a glycol chiller to ferment. I've done experimental batches with different methods. Post fermentation oxygen control has made the biggest difference in my beer quality and stability so far.







I've read several books, some of them contradictory. Lots of stuff in Palmer's book (especially the free online version) and other homebrew books are contradicted by actual textbooks. I read and learned A LOT on this forum before I built any system.







The way I do things are NOT the ONLY way. However, some things such as best practices in O2 control, yeast quality, pitch amounts, temperature control, recipe calculations and so on aren't process variables they are a know science. How you go about following the science is your process.





No. It will work but have off flavors. I know this because of the immense amount of evidence in published works, countered only by your empirical experience.





No, see above. If you want to send me one I'll taste it.







Whenever I feel it is necessary, or whenever I build equipment to do something that I've been wanting to do. I've recently done several batches following the recommendations in the paper On Brewing Bavarian Helles:

Adapting to Low Oxygen Brewing released my the guys at the German Brewing Forum to mixed results and will continue experimenting with the method, including natural fermentation in kegs.







If i have a reason to.





No, I'm not going to walk around putting my hands in things and trying them. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion.





You posted in a technical discussion forum on Brewing Fermentation & yeast, did you not want a discussion?





To the extent that I trust there cooking. Trying their beer isn't going to hurt me.... but there is a chance it isn't good.





Why would I go through the effort to make beer and not make it as good as I can? I'm not going to buy a steak and bring it home and microwave it!!

Mobile like.

 

[jddevinn]

Since we are doing pictures suppose I have to pour me a Pilsner.

 

[jddevinn]

Mobile like.

 

[applescrap]

What are you doing, now i feel like i have to answer them . They were kind of food for thought, but they offer insight into our backgrounds. I would like to learn more about oxygen after fermentation. Also would like to read the information you have on warm fermented lagers.

 

[applescrap]

Since we are doing pictures suppose I have to pour me a Pilsner.

So pretty where you live, jealous. Beer looks good.

 

[seabass07]

According to the yeast packets, 24 degree range is sufficient. When i get my 1000 bbl system, ill call you for advice. I havent ignored any of this opinion. Its a given isnt it that temperature control works. What isn't given is how much it matters, thus the discussion. You make some good points through your insults. Breweries should consider how much they spend on temperature control. I would if i owned one obviously.

That range is what they will ferment at, not necessarily the best range for a particular style. Since most of us start out with no temp control and realize that it makes a huge difference when we start paying attention to it, we know how important it is.

Expected to get a little flack on my brewing process, thoughts? I cant believe im saying this, but i am considering getting a hydrometer. Im want to try 30 or even shorter mashes and boil. Also i want to make a party-girl ris. I want to know efficiency etc in both of those scenarios.

No one cares about your brewing practices. Experiment all you want. We all do.

 

[applescrap]

I doubt thats true, about my brewing.

 

[ChefRex]

I would enjoy your company on a lighter thread. Join us on the friendly thread. Cheers

Hey quoting me out of context, thats not playing fair. Of course i dont own a hydrometer, gave a really good rationale once will try to find it. The rest doesn't really add up to i dont measure, clean, sanitize understand brewing etc..

Consider this, would it be possible for me to not care at all about brewing and make good beer because i know how to?

I doubt thats true, about my brewing.

I could care less about your brewing practices, this thread as since you have shown up has been a train wreck, I can't turn away.
You first turned up with the ridiculous emogies you use as your avatar, I thought you might be a 12yo, the reason I called out PP last night as he gave you a membership, you haven't proven to me you are not 12yo with your unreadable grouping of words, punctuation, and spelling, I'm not great at it and I refrain from putting long winded posts in writing.
You taking over the friendly place and talking to yourself and saying it was vacated, screw you, start your own thread.
I can't say you are the most unlikable person I have dealt with on the forum but you do seem to be the most prolific in the threads that I frequent.

Cheers

 

[geoffey]

I could care less about your brewing practices, this thread as since you have shown up has been a train wreck, I can't turn away.

You first turned up with the ridiculous emogies you use as your avatar, I thought you might be a 12yo, the reason I called out PP last night as he gave you a membership, you haven't proven to me you are not 12yo with your unreadable grouping of words, punctuation, and spelling, I'm not great at it and I refrain from putting long winded posts in writing.

You taking over the friendly place and talking to yourself and saying it was vacated, screw you, start your own thread.

I can't say you are the most unlikable person I have dealt with on the forum but you do seem to be the most prolific in the threads that I frequent.



Cheers

Mobile like.

 

[seabass07]

I doubt thats true, about my brewing.

It's true. No one cares what you do. They do care when you incorrectly claim your way is better.

 

[Pappers_]

So the lessons here are:

1) don't troll (see the forum rules, if you continue to troll you will be given a vacation from HBT, either temporary or permanent)

2) as hard as it is, don't respond to the trolls - feel free to refute bad advice, but after you do that, put the keyboard down - its tough, but much better than encouraging troll-like posting

 

[g-star]

I'm leaning this way as well. I take Marshall's work to mean "don't freak if you're a bit off with temps, etc." And none of the Brulosophy crew take their findings as reason to abandon the "best practices." Even they're skeptical in regards to their results.

Exactly, but many naive and intellectually challenged homebrewers fail to see this. The utter inability to view the results of the "exbeeriment" for what they truly are - poorly controlled experiments done on a minuscule sample size = inconclusive data.

But as the OP's blind enthusiasm demonstrates, these things can be so woefully interpreted to fit and support the common homebrewer "shortcut" bias, which is often validated by useless statements such as "my friends like it" or "I can't tell the difference". when I underpitch and ferment my lager at 70F.

 

[slym2none]

@mismost and screwybrewer, thanks for adding your thoughts here, appreciate it. Feeling temp
control is important i ask: Should people not make lagers because they can't control temperature in your opinion?

I don't speak for anyone else, ever, but I personally don't make lagers for that very reason.

 

[slym2none]

So therefore a steam beer is a lager and a lager is a steam beer.

I am sorry, but you're wrong.

I just can't get over it though, talking about the difference in flavors of these common simple beers. Does keeping the temperature control turn this into an elevated IPA. This is a common drink, a simple drink, a cheap drink to make and a crisp drink that one should always have around.



Hope i don't come off to jerky here, really enjoy the discussion

Temp control does not a beer style make.

I think I am going to stop reading right here, because this... threads like this are the kind of stuff I get in trouble for.

Cheers.

 

[slym2none]

*redacted*

 

[slym2none]

Omg no, that was for funny flars. You are awesome and i enjoyed your answers. You're a professional that's not fair. Saw that about cooking and was like this guy can Brew. A talented chef can no doubt clearly see many of the points i am making. I assume similar conversations happen in your field about processes. Anyways appreciate your post. And hope you add more

A talented chef can see your points are quite far off-base. You think you can just wing cheese? Just throw some rennet (how much, doesn't matter) in some milk, who cares about the milk's temperature or butterfat content or any of that, throw in a little salt, it's cheese, right?

Wrong. Very wrong.

How about a cake? Throw some cake flour, eggs, sugar, vanilla, and oil in a bowl. Slap the mess in a pan. Throw it in a hot oven - 350°? 500°? Doesn't matter, right?

WRONG. Very wrong.

I said I wasn't going to post here again. This post, I had to reply to, as I am also a chef.

Gah. End of thread. I am now, literally and figuratively, done.

 

[jschein]

I am sorry, but you're wrong.




Temp control does not a beer style make.

I think I am going to stop reading right here, because this... threads like this are the kind of stuff I get in trouble for.

Cheers.

Yeah we sure don't want passeddawn giving you the ban hammer, you bring up some funny s$&@

 

[jschein]

A talented chef can see your points are quite far off-base. You think you can just wing cheese? Just throw some rennet (how much, doesn't matter) in some milk, who cares about the milk's temperature or butterfat content or any of that, throw in a little salt, it's cheese, right?



Wrong. Very wrong.



How about a cake? Throw some cake flour, eggs, sugar, vanilla, and oil in a bowl. Slap the mess in a pan. Throw it in a hot oven - 350°? 500°? Doesn't matter, right?



WRONG. Very wrong.



I said I wasn't going to post here again. This post, I had to reply to, as I am also a chef.



Gah. End of thread. I am now, literally and figuratively, done.

That is why I don't make cake

 

[applescrap]

Helles brewed. Kind of miserable from the start, what could happen, did. 5 gallons in fermentor. Pitched at 68. Brew log attached. Brew water .5 gallons short, 2 wasps flew in (got them out), ic dripped a couple drips before i caught it and had to repair it. Hope it doesnt infect this one, never had an infection before (knock on wood). It was a whopping 14 dollars to make this beer. Palmer and zainasheff recipe with 2row substituted for pilsner. Short shot what i know i needed for mash to rest at 152, so let it rest at 148. Lost normal 3 degrees over 40 minutes. Stirred the s..t out of it at start and finish. Lost 0.7 gallons to grain. Normally would add some boiling water to bring temp up a bit but know it doesnt really matter anyways. Worst part took 2hours 45 minutes to make.Will see in a few days.

View attachment 1473124473350.jpg

View attachment 1473124482970.jpg

 

[ChefRex]

Helles brewed. Kind of miserable from the start, what could happen, did. 5 gallons in fermentor. Pitched at 68. Brew log attached. Brew water .5 gallons short, 2 wasps flew in (got them out), ic dripped a couple drips before i caught it and had to repair it. Hope it doesnt infect this one, never had an infection before (knock on wood). It was a whopping 14 dollars to make this beer. Palmer and zainasheff recipe with 2row substituted for pilsner. Short shot what i know i needed for mash to rest at 152, so let it rest at 148. Lost normal 3 degrees over 40 minutes. Stirred the s..t out of it at start and finish. Lost 0.7 gallons to grain. Normally would add some boiling water to bring temp up a bit but know it doesnt really matter anyways. Worst part took 2hours 45 minutes to make.Will see in a few days.

You are twelve, nice handwriting.
Cheers

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Since Brulosophy is oft-cited in this thread I thought I'd post this one

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/05/off-flavor-series-pt-1-dimethyl-sulfide-dms-exbeeriment-results

I found this interesting because it pretty well supports the idea that 'a lot of people cannot differentiate off-flavors'.

Spoiler alert: The result was not significant (the N was too small to be meaningful anyway). Despite all that the author, Marshall was able to consistently identify the beer with DMS despite others failing.

What does this mean? Not much (much like most 'citizen science experiments'). Anecdotally though it does indicate that a goodly number of people in his triangle test couldn't differentiate a beer tasting of 'rancid cabbage and ketchup' from a good one, but that it was apparent to other folks, and that this was a *huge* problem for them.

So, are you certain that your beer is actually *fine* following your methods, or are you just unable to tell the difference, and are fine with that? If the latter, brew on!

 

[joshesmusica]

2-row pale malt, cascade, and fermenting at 68f doesn't make a helles. If you did use a lager yeast, you can call it a pale lager, but you can't call it a helles. Did you use a lager yeast, btw? There are plenty of homebrewers in your area that are active on this site. I'd honestly share some with them and see what they think, if you wanted us to really start to trust you more anecdotally that temp doesn't matter.

Also, I'm sure you're aware, but ambient temp of 68f at the height of fermentation activity will most likely be around 75f, if not higher.

 

[applescrap]

Since Brulosophy is oft-cited in this thread I thought I'd post this one

http://brulosophy.com/2016/09/05/off-flavor-series-pt-1-dimethyl-sulfide-dms-exbeeriment-results

I found this interesting because it pretty well supports the idea that 'a lot of people cannot differentiate off-flavors'.

Spoiler alert: The result was not significant (the N was too small to be meaningful anyway). Despite all that the author, Marshall was able to consistently identify the beer with DMS despite others failing.

What does this mean? Not much (much like most 'citizen science experiments'). Anecdotally though it does indicate that a goodly number of people in his triangle test couldn't differentiate a beer tasting of 'rancid cabbage and ketchup' from a good one, but that it was apparent to other folks, and that this was a *huge* problem for them.

So, are you certain that your beer is actually *fine* following your methods, or are you just unable to tell the difference, and are fine with that? If the latter, brew on!

The 11 tasters were 4 bjcp judges, 3 certified cicerone servers, 1 hb person who now is professional, 2 craft beer fanatics, and his neighbor who has probably tasted every experiment.

In actuallity you help make my point. If only 3 of the above tasters all very experienced really couldnt tell a beer spiked, let me repeat, SPIKED with dms flavor; what makes one think all these minute differences discussed here matter so much? I get the point, you think i can't taste anything so anything will be good. But what about the other 11 who tasted in that experiment. They all cant taste either right.

These were spiked beers with dms, and only 3 of 11 could tell. Now consider that in light of this thread. My point remaining the same, do these small differences really warrant this kind of aggressive discourse, insulting, and trolling. I mean think of some of the names I've been called and the ways I've been spoken to. Do the differences really warrant that? Thanks for posting something to help my point. If those 11 people couldn't taste the difference in a super spiked beer with DMS blind tasted, what is a couple degrees of mash temp for example, going to change. I think what we ate before, how much we've had to drink and eat that day, etc, really matters in what we taste.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

The 11 tasters were 4 bjcp judges, 3 certified cicerone servers, 1 hb person who now is professional, 2 craft beer fanatics, and his neighbor who has probably tasted every experiment.

In actuallity you help make my point. If only 3 of the above tasters all very experienced really couldnt tell a beer spiked, let me repeat, SPIKED with dms flavor; what makes one think all these minute differences discussed here matter so much? I get the point, you think i can't taste anything so anything will be good. But what about the other 11 who tasted in that experiment. They all cant taste either right.

These were spiked beers with dms, and only 3 of 11 could tell. Now consider that in light of this thread. My point remaining the same, do these small differences really warrant this kind of aggressive discourse, insulting, and trolling. I mean think of some of the names I've been called and the ways I've been spoken to. Do the differences really warrant that? Thanks for posting something to help my point. If those 11 people couldn't taste the difference in a super spiked beer with DMS blind tasted, what is a couple degrees of mash temp for example, going to change. I think what we ate before, how much we've had to drink and eat that day, etc, really matters in what we taste.

I'd hardly call pointing out that people have differing thresholds for off-flavors trolling.

Instead I'm simply pointing out that everyone has different thresholds for off-flavors, and that just because you don't notice flavor X doesn't mean that X is not present. It simply means that X doesn't bother you, and that's cool, however, that's not the same as X not being there at all.

So you may very well be producing a beer that you personally cannot tell from another similar commercial beer, but it doesn't mean that someone else with a lower threshold for a given compound wouldn't be able to/wouldn't be bothered by it.

Or to put it more anecdotally, since we're talking about perception issues, just because my wife isn't bothered by/cannot taste the diacetyl in Old Speckled Hen doesn't mean that I won't pull a face and dump it.

 

[applescrap]

Haha, what is old speckled hen? Omg no, sorry, i wasnt saying you were trolling. I must have made my point really poorly. You make your very valid point again and very clear. It is a good point but i still feel it helps my argument. The fact that only 3 of 11 qualified tasters could taste a turd spiked beer says so much about these little differences we are discussing. My troll point was, consider how people have talked to me, trolled this thread or been insulting to me, over these little differences. Which are certainly little compared to dms pills.

 

[applescrap]

2-row pale malt, cascade, and fermenting at 68f doesn't make a helles. If you did use a lager yeast, you can call it a pale lager, but you can't call it a helles. Did you use a lager yeast, btw? There are plenty of homebrewers in your area that are active on this site. I'd honestly share some with them and see what they think, if you wanted us to really start to trust you more anecdotally that temp doesn't matter.

Also, I'm sure you're aware, but ambient temp of 68f at the height of fermentation activity will most likely be around 75f, if not higher.

I agree, it is a modified recipe. Hops are different and so are base grain. I used 34/70 for this second batch. I know i said i would use white labs but will use something else next time. I figured i would start with 34/70 and go from there. This morning saw video from wyeast guy. He mentioned quite a few yeasts that could work higher. He didn't mention temps above low 60s but did mention a few less delicate yeasts. Seems many companies have "California common" yeast offerings as well.

I agree and would like others to taste this batch. Assuming ic drip and wasps didnt hurt it. I bottle off keg and that plays a factor as i dont have counter filler yet. I also bottle in pet (another no no right?!) And have been out of pet bottles for too long. Also i have asked time and time again for help on shipping pet bottles with little answer. I assume they are more durable than glass. I will send you some joshes but arent you in Norway? But i have nothing to hide and i think a little camden will go a long way in increasing quality.

Thanks for the info and yes i knew that. Tried to get temp in room with instant read but need better tool for measuring room temp. I assume instant read works. It has been constant 74 night and day, or 70. Not sure really i will try to find better tool. Anyways happy brewing

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

Haha, what is old speckled hen?

Sorry I should have qualified that, it's an English pale ale that a goodly number of people like, and that is known to have a fair amount of diacetyl in it (buttered popcorn, slick mouthfeel). Personally I can't stand it, but some others quite like it.

Omg no, sorry, i wasnt saying you were trolling. I must have made my point really poorly. You make your very valid point again and very clear. It is a good point but i still feel it helps my argument. The fact that only 3 of 11 qualified tasters could taste a turd spiked beer says so much about these little differences we are discussing.

Which again goes to the point that to some people (not all people) these minute differences (and they are minute, with typical DMS concentrations in beer we're talking micrograms/L) are VERY palpable. So in the case of these people X kg of malt + Y grams of hops + Z yeast can make a beer that others may regard as tasty, but that these folks might regard as akin to being stabbed in the tongue with a rusty fork.

My troll point was, consider how people have talked to me, trolled this thread or been insulting to me, over these little differences. Which are certainly little compared to dms pills.

I'd love to know what the FlavorActiv rep is regarding as above threshold since their own site has the detection limit at 25 micrograms/L, but does concede that DMS ranges between 10 and 150 micrograms/L. Do these pills get you to 25? 250? It's not mentioned insofar as I can tell in the article, and I definitely would like to see it.

The other point about BJCP judges not being able to tell the difference in some cases, well that's also entirely possible. One of the judges on Dr. Homebrew (either a national or a master level judge) freely admits to being fairly diacetyl blind. So to someone diacetyl sensitive a beer might taste like a night at the movies, but this highly ranked judge may perceive it as precisely to style.

So this is a complex thing, it's not nearly so simple as put X in -> get Y out. Instead one has to consider that there may very well be processes that put out flavors that I can detect if something is done one way, but that someone else may not be able to (or vice versa).

Short of running a chemical analysis post most of the off-flavor experiments and then comparing that to well known, tightly controlled experiments on the flavor thresholds of various compounds, I don't really think we can universally state something like: 'Boiling with the lid on and only for 10 minutes doesn't produce DMS', maybe it's never bothered me, so I could make my beer that way. Does it mean that if I gave it to someone else they wouldn't simply write 'CREAMED CORN' on my sheet and give me a 13? Not at all.

Sensory analysis is tricky, and very subjective, different processes *very likely* produce a different result chemically, the 'xbeeriments' simply point to the fact that most people will never notice the 'rancid cabbage', but that doesn't mean it's not there.

I think that's why a lot of folks will control their ferment temperature, treat their water, boil vigorously, etc, simply because they don't want someone who can 'taste the cabbage' to come back and ding them for it. (I know it's why I do it)

 

[applescrap]

^^Hey no argument here. You make some very valid points. I would personally be very weary of experiments like this as i wouldnt want to over taste dms or diacetyl etc...for fear of then being able to detect the slightest hint in everything.

As far as dms goes, im sure you are aware of the test where marshall boiled german pilsner for 30 and 90 minutes. He sent the 30 minute boil to a lab and no dms was found! While it is plausible that some people are super sensitive to some factors, in the example of boil length and dms, as it relates to home Brewers, it has been tested many times. Or at least enough in my opinion that mandating 90-minute boils is a little overboard. Clearly boil length is a discussion for another thread, but illustrates another facet of brew dogma.

Let's talk about the cake as it relates to beer. I probably make 30 cakes a year. What would happen if you add too much water or too much flour to a cake? Or too much salt, oil, and or sugar? In most instances if you add too much water or flour the results could be far worse than something just tasting bad.* you might end up with something that you completely and totally need to throw away. As a secondary note based on some of the comments here if I make a cake, I guess I need to go to the finest cake maker in Denver and see how mine Compares; otherwise I just shouldn't even be making a cake at all. If I can't be the best cake maker in town then I guess there's just no point, right? What if I told you I make every single one of those cakes with my 3 & 5 year old children as a joyful act we do together. Should I stop making them because they're not the best. I don't remember claiming that I was or wanted to be the best at anything. Let alone cake or beer making.

Now let's consider the beer. What happens if you had a little too much water, or a little too much grain, or a little too many hops. Have you completely ruined the product like it would a cake. Absolutely not. In fact within reason a slight difference either way will make very little difference. Well let's just say you had too little or too much water. What do you have a throw away beer? No you have a beer that is a little stronger or one that is a little weaker. Same with the grain. And if you add to many hops, then im coming over. Not sure I'm ready to compare cake making and beer making. But that being said it would seem that beer is more forgiving.

 

[Yooper]

Now let's consider the beer. What happens if you had a little too much water, or a little too much grain, or a little too many hops. Have you completely ruined the product like it would a cake. Absolutely not. In fact within reason a slight difference either way will make very little difference. Well let's just say you had too little or too much water. What do you have a throw away beer? No you have a beer that is a little stronger or one that is a little weaker. Same with the grain. And if you add to many hops, then im coming over. Not sure I'm ready to compare cake making and beer making. But that being said it would seem that beer is more forgiving.

Well, I have a pretty good palate. I think in many cases, the opposite is true. Cake is more forgiving. A bit more flour, sugar, salt, chocolate? Meh, it'll be about the same.

As an example in beer, say you use cascade hops instead of noble hops in a typical lager recipe. I can smell/taste cascade hops a mile away. Even with .5 ounces of cascade hops vs .5 ounce of hallertauer, I will pick up on that right away, and the flavor profile wouldn't even be a bit close.

That's not to say that your beer with cascade hops is bad, but it would not be anywhere near a dunkel. I would tell just from the aroma.

Remember that while some people genetically cannot taste diacetyl, many others can in ppb- that's parts per billion. Same is true with many other substances.

I love that you love your beer and it's awesome. But remember that some of us have many years (often, decades) of experience and not just from reading. Not only are we pretty successful brewers, we are trained BJCP judges, and have had a lot of beer "samples" sent to us. Few are as great as the brewers claim (due to the ugly baby syndrome I suspect, but could be due to a poorly refined palateon behalf of the brewer), so any claims that a lager fermented at room temperature that used cascade hops tasted just like a commercial Munich Dunkel is going to be suspect I'm afraid.

I really abhor blanket statements, and would never say that all of Narziss' writings are bunk because Marshall make a non-scientific ex-beeriment (even Marshall wouldn't make such a ridiculous claim), and I'd again caution that while your anecdotal experiences are valuable and worth sharing, I'd not come across with an "all or nothing" approach.

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

As far as dms goes, im sure you are aware of the test where marshall boiled german pilsner for 30 and 90 minutes. He sent the 30 minute boil to a lab and no dms was found!

I did mention 'with the lid on' for a reason