MM2, 3 - Losing set? Cranken?

[Stealthcruiser]

augiedoggy knows mills now!

And the recommended shaft supports, for particular drive methods!.......

 

[augiedoggy]

augiedoggy knows mills now!

And the recommended shaft supports, for particular drive methods!.......

Its actually something thats been repeated by many including yourself earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure MM also mentioned it on thier website along with offering a ball bearing version of the pro mills but it seems they have reworded their descriptions this week to omit any mention of ball bearings unless im mistaken. I suspect the ball bearing option has been renamed to the "PD" (pulley drive) version of thier pro mills but they removed the mention of actual bearings as an upgrade as I suspect as it might look unfavorable for those looking for the best bang for the buck since they would only be offered at the $600 price range (without crank or hopper) on mills like the MM2pro SL for some of the same options that seem to come standard on the $150 kegco mill.

One good thing has come out of this though... This discussion seems to have gotten someones attention as the MM3 and others have dropped about $100 from last weeks pricing to $189 without the hopper or crank handle.

This is what MM says about using a pulley drive setup currently,

"NEW NEW NEW!!! We are now offering a keyed 1/2" drive shaft on our heat treated Pro series mills. (2Pro, 3Pro, and 2Pro SL) This is the option you want if you plan to drive your mill exclusively with a gear motor/coupler. This drive shaft option makes it unnecessary to widen one flat on our standard 1/2" shaft for a setscrew. It can also be used in low volume pulley drive applications where the pulley is keyed. For higher output pulley drive applications, the PD option is the way to go. This option can be selected on the roller material or drive shaft size pulldown menu on the product pages for the applicable mills, and is only available on heat treated rollers."

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Its actually something thats been repeated by many including yourself earlier in this thread. I'm pretty sure MM also mentioned it on thier website along with offering a ball bearing version of the pro mills but it seems they have reworded their descriptions this week to omit any mention of ball bearings unless im mistaken. I suspect the ball bearing option has been renamed to the "PD" (pulley drive) version of thier pro mills but they removed the mention of actual bearings as an upgrade as I suspect as it might look unfavorable for those looking for the best bang for the buck since they would only be offered at the $600 price range (without crank or hopper) on mills like the MM2pro SL for some of the same options that seem to come standard on the $150 kegco mill.

This is what MM says about using a pulley drive setup currently,

"NEW NEW NEW!!! We are now offering a keyed 1/2" drive shaft on our heat treated Pro series mills. (2Pro, 3Pro, and 2Pro SL) This is the option you want if you plan to drive your mill exclusively with a gear motor/coupler. This drive shaft option makes it unnecessary to widen one flat on our standard 1/2" shaft for a setscrew. It can also be used in low volume pulley drive applications where the pulley is keyed. For higher output pulley drive applications, the PD option is the way to go. This option can be selected on the roller material or drive shaft size pulldown menu on the product pages for the applicable mills, and is only available on heat treated rollers."

I'm hip to all that, Brother!


I guess "facetiousness" doesn't come through in a post........

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm hip to all that, Brother!


I guess "facetiousness" doesn't come through in a post........

see my edits including the mm price reductions this week.

 

[user 246304]

Ignore the "which ones discounted" on the other thread, Augie. Thanks for this notice. That's quite a break......!

 

[user 246304]

I'm literally one key stroke from buying the CK from AIHB. It's only competitor is the keystroke ready to buy the Kegco 3 roller from Bev Factory.

$50 more, and I'm not convinced you realize that much greater an extract efficiency or lauter quality, basically a brewing optimization, with the addition of a 3rd, passive roller.

But convince me otherwise. Fingers are twitching.

 

[cbier60]

As unpopular as this info will likely be, Im going to point out that the AAW motor is imported for all the folks concerned with the american made aspect..

I motorized my MM2 mill this past year, and spent too much time looking into motor options after reading through the vast Motorized Grain Mills: Time to show them off! thread. AAW just imports the motors from China and provides support if you have any issues. You could order the same or equivalent motor directly via Alibaba, but you don't save that much due to the high shipping cost, and it would be a PITA if you had any issues. I ended up buying a smaller made in the USA Bodine 42A5BEPM-E2 1/4HP DC Gearmotor via eBay (not Craigslist, as I originally wrote); this required buying a Bodine WPM-2137E1 controller as well. The huge advantage is that it's variable speed, providing very high start-up torque, even with lower HP. You could get this with a 3-phase AC motor as well, but it also would need a controller. I paid ~$100 total for the motor and controller. Just adding this info, since most discussions in that thread specify that such a large motor is needed, but that's not necessarily the case. That 1/2HP AAW motor is a beast, as in large and heavy. Guess I ought to post more info in that thread.

I'm literally one key stroke from buying the CK from AIHB. It's only competitor is the keystroke ready to buy the Kegco 3 roller from Bev Factory.

$50 more, and I'm not convinced you realize that much greater an extract efficiency or lauter quality, basically a brewing optimization, with the addition of a 3rd, passive roller.

But convince me otherwise. Fingers are twitching.

In addition to the 3rd roller, there's another big difference. The CK roller size is 5" long and 1.25" diameter; the crank shaft has a 10mm diameter. Kegco 3 roller roller size is 6" long and 1.5" diameter (which is a big deal); the crank shaft has a 12mm diameter, according to reviews (which is also significant if motorizing).

 

[user 246304]

I motorized my MM2 mill this past year, and spent too much time looking into motor options after reading through the vast Motorized Grain Mills: Time to show them off! thread. AAW just imports the motors from China and provides support if you have any issues. You could order the same or equivalent motor directly via Alibaba, but you don't save that much due to the high shipping cost, and it would be a PITA if you had any issues. I ended up buying a smaller made in the USA Bodine 42A5BEPM-E2 1/4HP DC Gearmotor via Craigslist; this required buying a Bodine WPM-2137E1 controller as well. The huge advantage is that it's variable speed, providing very high start-up torque, even with lower HP. You could get this with a 3-phase AC motor as well, but it also would need a controller. I paid ~$100 total for the motor and controller. Just adding this info, since most discussions in that thread specify that such a large motor is needed, but that's not necessarily the case. That 1/2HP AAW motor is a beast, as in large and heavy. Guess I ought to post more info in that thread.
In addition to the 3rd roller, there's another big difference. The CK roller size is 5" long and 1.25" diameter; the crank shaft has a 10mm diameter. Kegco 3 roller roller size is 6" long and 1.5" diameter (which is a big deal); the crank shaft has a 12mm diameter, according to reviews (which is also significant if motorizing).

Sorry, yep, spaced that, that is a big deal. Thanks!

Edit: Thanks on the motor and controller issue too, since I'm absolutely clueless. Someone mentioned the ability to "grind rocks," I think they said, with the AAW motor. I see other things beside rock grinders work well too. Another area to show my noob status is....

Edit: This motor, and this controller, right?

Am I reading it wrong - 125 RPM - aren't these mills optimized somewhere around double that? Or is that built into the speed controller?

 

[cbier60]

This motor, and this controller, right?

Am I reading it wrong - 125 RPM - aren't these mills optimized somewhere around double that? Or is that built into the speed controller?

I often found that the suffix on the Bodine motors didn't correspond to a unique model and gear ratio, but mine was a -E2, and 250 rpm, not -E3 & 125 rpm. So mine is the same with 2X the (max) rpm. The 0791 model controller is what I bought.

Regarding speed, I never run my mill at full speed. I expect I usually run it at <100rpm. My view, which I think is valid, is that a slower rate provides a "better" crush with lower risk of tearing husks. The drawback is slower throughput. Well, the benefit of a motorized mill is that you can put the grain in the hopper and leave it while you do other things. As a homebrewer, unless you're doing a huge high gravity brew, you probably aren't too concerned with throughput. The optimal rpm rate (for max throughput w/o being too fast so as to tear the husks) is a function of roller diameter, since it's really a function of linear speed of the contact, but it's typically in the range of ~150-250 rpm. Bottom line is if I found a deal on a 125 rpm motor on eBay or CL instead of my preferred 180 rpm, I'd still jump on it.

If you have a DC motor and controller, then the specified RPM is the maximum speed. You can adjust the speed anywhere from 0 up to the specified value (e.g., 125 or 250rpm). For a single phase AC motor like the 180 rpm AAW one, that's the only (fixed) speed. The reason the motor needs to be oversized is because the torque is inversely proportional to speed (and the gear reduction ratio), so the higher the speed, the lower the torque. High torque is necessary only when the motor first starts up if the hopper is preloaded prior to starting, essentially jamming the rollers prior to starting up. If you can start a motor up at zero rpm, then the required torque is much lower; therefore, you can get by with a much smaller (lower HP) motor.

 

[user 246304]

Thank you, ciber60, that's a really helpful tutorial. Really looking forward to getting the mill and motor together. I might start with a drill, but will be keeping my eyes out for a nice motor to match. Many thanks.

 

[augiedoggy]

you can use a speed controller with a dc gear reduction motor as well like I do... to make a pwm dc power supply tou just need about $10 in hardware (light dimmer switch and bridge rectifier to convert ac to dc..) theres you tube videos on it.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks Augie. Up in the northern hinterlands attending to family business, but wanted to acknowledge your help. Kegco 3 ordered early this morning, and not sure I have a 1/2" chuck drill to get me started, (2 dtills in basement, think both are 3/8") but regardless, very excited to get this all going. Need the frame, the Spike HLT, 5L stirstarter/5L Erlenmeyer, as I'll be propping up from Black Sheep, some Fawcett MO and other ingredients from NB, and we're in business. (May seem like a lot, but much closer than I was!). I'll be adding in more lab equip., most especially, but this will get me drinking bitters, over buying APA/IPAs...!

 

[augiedoggy]

I received my 3 roller kegco today... I'm very impressed and am fairly certain its from the same maker of my CK... rollers also have the same bearings setup and knurling which is good because mine has held up great.

 

[cbier60]

to make a pwm dc power supply tou just need about $10 in hardware (light dimmer switch and bridge rectifier to convert ac to dc..) theres you tube videos on it.

I'm not sure how you quantify this as a PWM power supply. Variable inefficient linear supply yes, but PWM? As long as you don't have a thermal problem, then this would still work, since the DC gearmotor (gear reduction motor) speed is simply controlled by the variable DC supply voltage. PWM just makes it efficient.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'm not sure how you quantify this as a PWM power supply. Variable inefficient linear supply yes, but PWM? As long as you don't have a thermal problem, then this would still work, since the DC gearmotor (gear reduction motor) speed is simply controlled by the variable DC supply voltage. PWM just makes it efficient.

Yes your correct its not pwm it does lower the voltage instead I knew this too but simply mispoke. all of my other DC motors like my pumps are using variable pwm controllers but I could not find something cheap and powerful enough to drive this motor at the time.
The motor is 110v DC and I honestly haven't adjusted it down very much for sustained periods of time due to the rpm being slow enough to work well even at 115v dc. I have never even had the motor get warm oddly enough.

 

[user 246304]

I often found that the suffix on the Bodine motors didn't correspond to a unique model and gear ratio, but mine was a -E2, and 250 rpm, not -E3 & 125 rpm. So mine is the same with 2X the (max) rpm. The 0791 model controller is what I bought.

Regarding speed, I never run my mill at full speed. I expect I usually run it at <100rpm. My view, which I think is valid, is that a slower rate provides a "better" crush with lower risk of tearing husks. The drawback is slower throughput. Well, the benefit of a motorized mill is that you can put the grain in the hopper and leave it while you do other things. As a homebrewer, unless you're doing a huge high gravity brew, you probably aren't too concerned with throughput. The optimal rpm rate (for max throughput w/o being too fast so as to tear the husks) is a function of roller diameter, since it's really a function of linear speed of the contact, but it's typically in the range of ~150-250 rpm. Bottom line is if I found a deal on a 125 rpm motor on eBay or CL instead of my preferred 180 rpm, I'd still jump on it.

If you have a DC motor and controller, then the specified RPM is the maximum speed. You can adjust the speed anywhere from 0 up to the specified value (e.g., 125 or 250rpm). For a single phase AC motor like the 180 rpm AAW one, that's the only (fixed) speed. The reason the motor needs to be oversized is because the torque is inversely proportional to speed (and the gear reduction ratio), so the higher the speed, the lower the torque. High torque is necessary only when the motor first starts up if the hopper is preloaded prior to starting, essentially jamming the rollers prior to starting up. If you can start a motor up at zero rpm, then the required torque is much lower; therefore, you can get by with a much smaller (lower HP) motor.

cbier, I'm looking around and I'm not finding your particular motor anywhere south of $400. But I know I'm just starting and I have a lot of learning to do regardless, so I expect it will be part hunting for a motor, part learning what it is I'm hunting for.

Can I just ask? If I permanently mount the mill (as opposed to use a handheld drill), it will make no difference I suppose because I'll flip a switch and it's hands off regardless - but presuming I want to fill the hopper and start cold, do I understand you that with the AC, as in the AAW, you need a relatively more powerful motor to give enough torque, because you're already running at max RPM as soon as you kick it on; but with something like the (variable RPM) DC, you can get by with a smaller motor, because, starting at zero to lower RPM's, you're applying more torque starting off, as a matter of course?

 

[user 246304]

FWIW, I've found a Bodine DC 1/4 HP 125 RPM 90 torq. motor for $100. Sound OK? And dumb question, but can you use lovejoys without keyway shafts?

 

[augiedoggy]

FWIW, I've found a Bodine DC 1/4 HP 125 RPM 90 torq. motor for $100. Sound OK? And dumb question, but can you use lovejoys without keyway shafts?

They have an allen head set screw ..

 

[Stealthcruiser]

And dumb question, but can you use lovejoys without keyway shafts?

Yes, you can.
As long as there are flats or indentations on the shafts, for the set screw to seat.
A drop of Loctite thread locker, (not the red variety!), on the set screws is a good idea, as well as a before use inspection to ensure the screws are tight.

 

[cbier60]

The motor is 110v DC and I honestly haven't adjusted it down very much for sustained periods of time due to the rpm being slow enough to work well even at 115v dc. I have never even had the motor get warm oddly enough.

Efficiency is highest at max voltage, and lowers as the voltage drops. But it's not the motor, which should look like a constant current load. Therefore, its power and thus heat is proportional to voltage (and speed). But since it's rated for that current and power, it shouldn't get too hot. It's your simple cheap regulator which will dissipate more power as the voltage is lowered and may get too hot as you slow it down.

cbier, I'm looking around and I'm not finding your particular motor anywhere south of $400.

FWIW, I've found a Bodine DC 1/4 HP 125 RPM 90 torq. motor for $100. Sound OK?

Yes, the list price for these new motors is even more than that. But there seem to be ones available via eBay that have been sitting in someone's warehouse stock. The motor I got for $50 was almost 20 year old "new old stock". If that motor you linked to is unused (probably also new old stock, that's a great deal.You can always make a cheap crude supply as augiedoggy suggested or hopefully find a deal on a controller like I did; it doesn't have to be made by the same company Bodine, as there are quite a few on the market. If you buy the motor and are having trouble finding a controller, PM me and I can help you find something. I'm an electrical engineer, know what I'm talking about and what you need, and went through the same exercise just this past year. I'm not a motor guru, but did a lot of research and understand the lingo and know enough to give advice from not just another homebrewer.

do I understand you that with the AC, as in the AAW, you need a relatively more powerful motor to give enough torque, because you're already running at max RPM as soon as you kick it on; but with something like the (variable RPM) DC, you can get by with a smaller motor, because, starting at zero to lower RPM's, you're applying more torque starting off, as a matter of course?

Yes, that's correct. A single phase AC motor, which is most common and easiest to control, is fixed speed and therefore can have issues with startup with a full hopper (but can work fine if you start it and then add the grain). A DC motor or 3-phase AC motor, both of which require controllers to manage the applied voltage, can operate at variable speed by varying the DC voltage or phase (AC). Less start-up torque is needed at lower speed, so a smaller motor will do. As I said earlier, a lot of people in thsat other thread just oversize their motor to be sure it starts up fine; after it's running, the torque requirements are much lower. Not only does this cost more, but the motor can be really big and heavy; I think the 1/2 HP AAW is ~35lb. To be fair, my 1/4HP Bodine is still a lot bigger and heavier at ~16lb than I had imagined when I ordered it.

 

[user 246304]

cbier, thanks. Just quickly as I've had a rough day and calling it - believe it or not, I lost balance and did a wonderful concrete face plant today. Awesome for the ego, lol. We've been up north and on our 6 -7 hour return, so add to that a dad with a wonderful few cherries on his face, and....who needs standup.


Anyway, I just noticed the Bodine is a 5/8" shaft. The Kegco is 12 mm so I don't know if it's possible to put those together - can you pair up differently sized shafts somehow? And you nailed it - it appears to be
"new leftover stock."

I know zero, so I'm truly shooting blind. Steve at AAW kindly got back pretty quickly and said he can put the K3 with his 180, with 12mm lovejoys, just not something he usually carries in stock. I appreciated his getting back so quickly.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Anyway, I just noticed the Bodine is a 5/8" shaft. The Kegco is 12 mm so I don't know if it's possible to put those together - can you pair up differently sized shafts somehow? And you nailed it - it appears to be
"new leftover stock."

I know zero, so I'm truly shooting blind. Steve at AAW kindly got back pretty quickly and said he can put the K3 with his 180, with 12mm lovejoys, just not something he usually carries in stock. I appreciated his getting back so quickly.

Peruse your coupling sizes and materials here........I didn't peruse, but research may show you can mix and match, while doctoring face cherries......


https://www.mcmaster.com/#lovejoy-couplings/=1a1uijh

 

[cbier60]

Anyway, I just noticed the Bodine is a 5/8" shaft. The Kegco is 12 mm so I don't know if it's possible to put those together - can you pair up differently sized shafts somehow?

Yes, the Lovejoys (coupling hubs) allow you to pair up almost any size shafts. You'll buy a size L075 hub with a 5/8 bore and appropriate keyway to attach to the motor and a hub with a 12mm bore and no keyway to attach to the mill, and then the 10621 solid spider to mate them. I'd wait until you have both motor and mill in hand to be sure what size you need. Prices on the couplings vary wildly on Amazon. Other sources are Grainger & Zoro, in addition to McMaster Carr, and there are other brands beside Lovejoy.

 

[augiedoggy]

Yes, the Lovejoys (coupling hubs) allow you to pair up almost any size shafts. You'll buy a size L075 hub with a 5/8 bore and appropriate keyway to attach to the motor and a hub with a 12mm bore and no keyway to attach to the mill, and then the 10621 solid spider to mate them. I'd wait until you have both motor and mill in hand to be sure what size you need. Prices on the couplings vary wildly on Amazon. Other sources are Grainger & Zoro, in addition to McMaster Carr, and there are other brands beside Lovejoy.

There is detailed mention of which size lovejoy is needed for the kegco 3 roller in the kegco mill thread since some lacked the caliper to measure it and it has three flat sides.

Gadjobrinus, folks using the AAW motor are also doing just that (using different sized bore lovejoys) its in the kegco thread.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

There is detailed mention of which size lovejoy is needed for the kegco 3 roller in the kegco mill thread since some lacked the caliper to measure it and it has three flat sides.

.

And if lacking a caliper........Open end wrench, of metric or standard variety,will get you close enough.

 

[augiedoggy]

And if lacking a caliper........Open end wrench, of metric or standard variety,will get you close enough.

Very true, The triangle shape of the shaft with the 3 large flats in it would normally make this tough except there is a 1/2" wide area of full diameter shaft at the base to best accomplish this.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks guys. BTW, I do have a pair of both manual and electronic calipers (I used to reload my 45-70, and was as uptight about tolerances there as processes here) and found at least one my c.c.'s is .032". Prophesy?

OK. I'm finding a million motors for what seem like a song, but they all run at 1750 rpm. I don't know how evaluate the worth of a motor, especially from afar, and don't know how to get the speed down. If I don't want a pulley system, am I right in looking for a gear box that attaches to the motor, and that reduction factor is now the increase in torque? E.g., 1750 with a 10:1 box will now spin at 175 rpm and more, if it has a pre-gear box torque of 9, post-box, it will be 90?

BTW, I do think I'm buying that bodine mentioned above.

Edit: Nevermind, lol. Just worked out the buying of the motor from the last page. It looks like I just need couplings and a means to control it, which I'll now work on. Thanks guys.

 

[user 246304]

I'm sorry guys (I really am - I know it must get old to have to repeat things), but presuming I find the right coupling match, now that I have the Kegco 3 and this DC motor, I'll need something like this "Filtered PWM Speed Control" to control the motor, yes? (I am going to learn about it, and likely have an electrician friend do the work unless walking through it is made to be foolproof. As I am an electrical fool).

Anyway, mill, coupling, motor, controller. Correct?

 

[cbier60]

I'm finding a million motors for what seem like a song, but they all run at 1750 rpm. I don't know how evaluate the worth of a motor, especially from afar, and don't know how to get the speed down. If I don't want a pulley system, am I right in looking for a gear box that attaches to the motor, and that reduction factor is now the increase in torque? E.g., 1750 with a 10:1 box will now spin at 175 rpm and more, if it has a pre-gear box torque of 9, post-box, it will be 90?

Sounds like you figured it out, but yes, AC motors run at 1750 and DC motors at ~2500rpm. You need to use either a pulley system or gear reducer to drop the speed and increase the torque. My opinion is that a "gearmotor", motor with integrated gear reducer is the most economical option.

presuming I find the right coupling match, now that I have the Kegco 3 and this DC motor, I'll need something like this "Filtered PWM Speed Control" to control the motor, yes? (I am going to learn about it, and likely have an electrician friend do the work unless walking through it is made to be foolproof. As I am an electrical fool).

Anyway, mill, coupling, motor, controller. Correct?

Correct. If you can't find a controller at a reasonable price in a reasonable timeframe, then you could consider a low-cost option like augiedoggy described. As I mentioned earlier, there are several companies that make controllers that would work. I'll try to post a few of the options that I found.

 

[user 246304]

Thanks cbier. You've mentioned both Augie's solution and that there are other options out there a couple of times, just a bit dense, I'm afraid. I'll go back and read and learn some more. Next up, I think, is the Maelstrom. Bit by bit, coming together. Frame would be good, lol!