MM2, 3 - Losing set? Cranken?

[cbier60]

Thanks Stealth. Looks like this might be it. Amazon, over $600 new! But gives some sniffing to do. Thanks again. Very cool solution.

Man, Gadjobrinus, I'm not sure if you're just impulsive or fickle. If you want to vacillate some more, I assume you have already checked out this Motorized Grain Mills thread. I don't know why you would want a separate AC motor and gear reducer at twice the cost or more than the DC motor you already bought with integrated reducer. In addition to expense, it's a LOT bigger and heavier. Size matters!

Here's another, with speed controls and what not.

Tons of stuff out there!

https://hgrinc.com/surplus/electric...+Motor&per_page=24&min_price=&max_price=&pn=1

Look at the $39.99 Bodine Electric Co. Dc Motor Speed Control or some others at that website.

I'm assuming you're more intimidated by the electrical than the mechanical.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Bottom line cbier, ultimately, I want something a switch that has an "on" label above and an "off" below; or "reverse" below. The least amount of wiring I have to do, the more giddy this food guy feels, the closer I can get to ending playing around with everything but the brewing itself. The AC seemed simpler, that's all. And as I was just introduced to the world of surplus....everything, I have no idea of relative costs.

I think it was So-Cal Doug who said some good words: Take your time, be patient, plan, no rush.

Tough one for me, but he's right.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

I think it was So-Cal Doug who said some good words: Take your time, be patient, plan, no rush.

Tough one for me, but he's right.

"You'll have that, from time to time".



I gathered my stuff, ( for the mill), over the course of about 3 years.

Yep, I think the A/C , reversible is simpler.


I have a mantra of sorts I usually refer to: "Buy once, cry once", after doing research.

If ya' have good mechanical and scrounging skills, you can re-purpose easier, and I had access to some choice scrounge over the 30 years in my trade.

I've seen some sweet mill drives, that a nice treadmill donated it's soul to.

DC motor, plenty o'torque, built in speed controls.
Choose your pulleys and belts, and rock and roll!

 

[Gadjobrinus]

BTW, guys, I just checked out the DC speed controls and....have absolutely no understanding of what I'm looking out, lol. And not sure yet how to find out if any would marry up with this DC motor. But I do appreciate and will keep trying to look and learn.

Cbier, as to the "why" of all this, I should have just answered truthfully, eternally curious.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Testing:

One awesome setup, Stealth. I love seeing the switch. I think it was on that "motorize your mill" thread, 82 pages, but somebody had this beautiful setup outside and someone joked about the rarely spotted outdoor mill. One switch, two, and a heck of a beast.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Alright guys, I give you the gift of laughter. Motor arrived (a bit dinged on the back housing. Don't think it matters) and...hold on to your hats....I DON'T SEE ANY OF THOSE THINGIES CALLED CHORDS, OR WIRES!!!!

OK, I need to get two armature wires out, right? I presume other wires, which I don't know what the He!! to do with yet, because I presumed the AC input lines on the speed controller came from a cut off AC plug-line.

Anyway, I'll start with just getting the wires out. Once you're through laughing, help?

BTW: I am pretty geeked about this. Cbier, I know I swirled back and forth on this, just trying to learn, actually. I truly appreciate your help, and the help of everyone else who has contributed to this thread. Can't wait to get this one part of the process chain - the mill - finished. Next will be frame and we're very close at that point.

Edit: Added some more pics. Rear shot, a shot showing what looks like a kind of tab, hinge? (shows some damage, sorry for the shot). Don't want to pull or unscrew anything till I know what I'm doing. Then a shot of the smallish screws at top and bottom. I see in later models what looks like an AC power chord comes out the top, but I'm truly lost here.

 

[cbier60]

Alright guys, I give you the gift of laughter. Motor arrived (a bit dinged on the back housing. Don't think it matters) and...hold on to your hats....I DON'T SEE ANY OF THOSE THINGIES CALLED CHORDS, OR WIRES!!!!

OK, I need to get two armature wires out, right? I presume other wires, which I don't know what the He!! to do with yet, because I presumed the AC input lines on the speed controller came from a cut off AC plug-line.

Anyway, I'll start with just getting the wires out. Once you're through laughing, help?

BTW: I am pretty geeked about this. Cbier, I know I swirled back and forth on this, just trying to learn, actually. I truly appreciate your help, and the help of everyone else who has contributed to this thread. Can't wait to get this one part of the process chain - the mill - finished. Next will be frame and we're very close at that point.

Edit: Added some more pics. Rear shot, a shot showing what looks like a kind of tab, hinge? (shows some damage, sorry for the shot). Don't want to pull or unscrew anything till I know what I'm doing. Then a shot of the smallish screws at top and bottom. I see in later models what looks like an AC power chord comes out the top, but I'm truly lost here.

RDWHAHB (aka, chill)

You're good. You're going to crimp or solder some spade lugs onto 16AWG or preferably 14AWG wire to apply the DC voltage to the motor armature. The DC voltage is applied between the unlabeled screw terminal and the CW one. Then, you'll connect an earth ground connection to the GR terminal. These will come from either your motor controller or if you go augie's route, the DC voltage comes off the bridge (or via a switch if you install one like I linked to earlier to reverse polarity. I think there is at least one schematic in the 82-page "Show us your motor" thread, but I can send you a detailed schematic and instructions if you can't find anything.

The damage shouldn't be an issue as long as the shock that caused it didn't damage anything internally. This should be evident once you run it and hopefully don't hear any strange noise. I'll post pictures of my motor shortly, but mine got damaged even worse than yours, so bad that the seller agreed to refund me and let me keep the motor, which led to my contacting Bodine. These motors are heavy and really need to be packed well with rigid foam or at least a lot of bubble wrap, but I guess some of these surplus dealers just don't pack it well enough.

The rounded area (maybe what you referred to as the tab, hinge?) and screw hole in the upper left corner is for installing a strain relief for the wire. It would be nice to have, but not absolutely necessary depending on your installation.

Until you get something to power this, there's not a lot you can do other than figuring how to mount it and use the couplings to drive the mill. If you have an old PC supply that can put out something like 12V or maybe +/- 12V, you could connect +12 to one armature and -12V to the other. Your motor should rotate at 125 rpm with 130VDC, so if you apply 24V, it scales linearly to give you 24/130 x 125 = ~23 rpm. You could actually even mill grain like this, but it will just take a little while. But, hey, you could see this thing working.

I'll try to see if I can find a deal on a controller that you'll be able to use, but if you see something you have questions about, send me a link and I'll give you some feedback. I should be able to tell you exactly how to wire it once you/we find what to buy.

 

[cbier60]

OK, here are some pictures of my mill stand. This is an old butcher block microwave stand my wife had bought for ~$15 on CL or a local thrift store. I moved the bottom shelf up so that I have only ~1/8" clearance from a 7G brew bucket to keep dust down. I aligned everything on the diagonal so I'd have enough room for my "weigh station", something I had seen from a few brewers in that other thread.

This shows the connections to the armature and ground, as well as my broken housing. Yes, those are the armature windings visible.

The controller I bought didn't have its cover, and I still haven't gotten around to making one (out of the black metal piece you see down on the floor). I'll mount the controller just under the lip of the table on the side, right below where it's sitting.

You can see the L-bracket mounting the motor. I then had to raise the mill quite a bit to align them.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Perfect. Thank you as always. Worth a thousand words, etc., and it clears it up. I'm extremely impressed by the "tightness" of your design, in a good way. Maybe efficient is better. Beautiful, and thanks again because I have a better idea. I've got the controller literature and they contain hookup info. (I know you know this - just saying I think I'm good).

I did see the connections on the back and figured out CW must have meant clockwise, knew the GR, but didn't know what the unlabeled one was. Thanks, cbier.

Then guess what? Awesome move. Unscrewed top and bottom, popped off the "strain" tabs, and realized....crap. Figuring out how to get it back together took this moron's time and a couple paper clips to hold spring back to retract those - metal posts? - all while keeping the metal "washers" (?) from flying to the magnet and repeat. I got great at learning how to put a small spring and holding tab in place. Every time I was able to get the back sliding on the....sorry, rotor?....the spring's little retaining tab would pop off and sproing! through the "strain" aperture. Good times.

Knock on wood I didn't screw it up. Ironic you mention the damage you had, and your experience with the seller (bad damage, cbier - I'm glad they refunded and allowed you to keep it), because just now the seller wrote me. Haven't opened her e-mail yet. And spot on as to the cause - she lined the bottom with one layer of bubble wrap, and all that was destroyed, so the motor rode on the cardboard of the box only. Knocking on wood there, too.

Thanks again.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Just for info, Y'all.
Monster Brewing posted up a sale post, on that F B thingy.:

https://www.facebook.com/MonsterBre...sNi57lnfDsP2xp_EChL87Zj246hjj58JK1x8Q&fref=nf

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I wanted to clean this up because I know it was a mess to read through previously. I hope it helps make clearer what I'm looking for.

1. I'd like to have both an on-off switch, and the ability to reverse the mill. I did end up buying the KBWD 16, and I don't see any provision on the controller for either, so maybe the ship has sailed, and you just don't have these options with this controller?

2. When the instructions say, earth the chassis because it's metal, I don't know what that means, except that the chassis is metal, and when something in electrical instruction says ground, you'd best do it. I also don't know where to connect the two grounds off the two wire cable I have - 1 off the armature, 1 off the AC chord.

3. I'm not sure what kind of enclosure to use. I'd love to just find a fitting model that will work, but don't know if I need a particular type (metal outlet box, plastic, etc.). Ideally, cbier and all, I'd love to have something close to what I see on yours, though I know your controller is different. Just something I can properly mount the board to, allow the pot, ideally allow both an on off ac switch and for-rev switch, and then sealed openings for ac power and armature cable. I have no idea of I'm asking for the moon, given this simple and inexpensive controller.

4. I am completely confused on the fuses for the AC line and armature. It looks like they say, 10 A fuse for the AC, but I can't decipher which fuse I'm supposed to use for this motor's armature. The motor is 0-130 VDC, but they only list fuses as for either 90 or 180 VDC.

5. Finally, I have the KB pot, large dial, etc. Coming. I don't know what kind of wire you use to go from the pot to the proper points on the controller board.

Many thanks, all.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I wanted to bump this just because it was a mess before, and I hope anyone who read it previously might be able to better see what I was looking for. Thanks.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Here's what I have.

Motor Connection:

MOTOR CONNECTIONS–Feed the motor cable through the opening in the bottom of the enclosure. For clockwise armature rotation, connect the “+” motor wire (white wire on Bodine motors) to terminal “A2” and the “–” motor wire (black wire on Bodine motors) to terminal “A1”. For counterclockwise rotation, reverse the motor connections. Reinstall enclosure cover.

So, for the motor connection, white from "CW (-)" to A2; black from unlabeled on back of motor to A1. Green is ground, but per below, I don't know where to connect this ground line.

For the AC cord,

A cord should be used for the AC power connection in order to properly seal against water through the liquid tight fitting. See Step 5 for cord and wire specifications. Connect the hot side of the line to “L1” and the neutral side to “L2.” Connect earth ground to the terminal labeled “CHASSIS GROUND.” The barrier terminal block screws should be tightened to 6 lb-in (0.678 Nm).

Line = hot = black
Neutral = white
Green = ground

So, White to L2, Black to L1, Green to ground, though I don't know where to hook the ground wire up, because unlike other models, I see no ground terminal on the board.
I also don't know how to "connect chassis to earth." The only earth grounding I know is from farming, and that's not much help here. What am I missing, folks? (let's keep it to this subject, OK?)

Potentiometer: I know the proper connections. I just don't know the kind of wire you use for things like this (would imagine direction and on/off switches use the same wire?).

Fuses:

AC Fuse: KB Part 9746. 10 Motor Current (DC Amps), Fuse Rating 15 Amps (AC). Will try to find a way to connect the fuse box inside the enclosure. White to L2, Black to fuse to L1.

Motor Fuse: I presume part no. 9742. 2.5 Motor current (DC A), 4 A (AC). Fuse box, same, will try to find a place to install it. White to fuse to A2. Black to A1. (This seems weird to me - isn't B alway hot, and white neutral?).

I hope this is right. If your eyes are still open, I appreciate any confirmation or assistance. At the risk of repeating my query, still looking to see if it's possible to put an on/off and direction switch. Also looking for a suitable enclosure.

Thanks.

 

[cbier60]

Sorry, Gadjobrinus. Can't always be on call to respond to HBT forums.

Motor Connection:

So, for the motor connection, white from "CW (-)" to A2; black from unlabeled on back of motor to A1. Green is ground, but per below, I don't know where to connect this ground line.

Correct on the motor connections. More on the ground below.

For the AC cord,

So, White to L2, Black to L1, Green to ground, though I don't know where to hook the ground wire up, because unlike other models, I see no ground terminal on the board.
I also don't know how to "connect chassis to earth."

The ground from your power cord is usually green, connected to the round ground pin on your 3-wire plug. If the KBWD-16 has a metal chassis, then you'd connect the wire here; if there's no way to connect, it's probably OK to not make a connection. However, you'll want to connect the ground from the AC cord to the ground on the cord going to motor, which then gets attached to the motor's GR terminal. This ground is "earth ground"; in the absence of a fault, there should never be any current flow on this wire.

Potentiometer: I know the proper connections. I just don't know the kind of wire you use for things like this (would imagine direction and on/off switches use the same wire?).

This can be smaller wire, maybe anything 18-24AWG stranded. If you have excess wire from an old ceiling fan or anything, it will do. Make it long enough to be easy to work with to wherever you will mount the pot. Twist the 3 wires together (so best to have 3 different colors to make it easy to identify the 3); this is a low-level signal, but mildly susceptible to noise, which is why you twist the wires.

Fuses:

AC Fuse: KB Part 9746. 10 Motor Current (DC Amps), Fuse Rating 15 Amps (AC). Will try to find a way to connect the fuse box inside the enclosure. White to L2, Black to fuse to L1.

Motor Fuse: I presume part no. 9742. 2.5 Motor current (DC A), 4 A (AC). Fuse box, same, will try to find a place to install it. White to fuse to A2. Black to A1. (This seems weird to me - isn't B alway hot, and white neutral?).

You can buy any standard fuses from a hardware or auto parts store, and can get a fuse block from Radio Shack, Amazon, or auto store (probably). Wire colors are standard convention for AC, but the color really doesn't matter for the motor. You really have just DC+ & DC-.

still looking to see if it's possible to put an on/off and direction switch. Also looking for a suitable enclosure.

The on/off switch can be any SPST toggle switch rated for 250VAC minimum, or just a standard wall switch, depending on how you mount it. It will just be in series with the input AC fuse (hot AC input).

For direction, you'll place an on/off/on DPDT switch like this one I used between A1/A2 and the motor, like below. I assume you have a multimeter to check connections or voltages. If you don't, buy an inexpensive one for <$10 from Sears, Amazon, etc. The nice thing about installing the polarity switch is that you don't really care about the motor direction. Just wait to label FWD/REV on your switch after you figure out which direction is which (or if you're anal, just swap the leads on the motor if you want to reverse it after testing.

Finally, the enclosure can be a plastic "project box" or a metal one. Make it big enough to fit the KBWD-16, to mount the pot and switches, and fuses, maybe 4x6x2 or so. It really depends on how you're mounting everything. Plastic is much easier since you'll be drilling a bunch of holes.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Thanks Cbier. If I conveyed anything related to "on call," I apologize. I was revising the posts merely to clean them up and make my queries clearer, and adding new info - meaning, things I learned, hopefully - to avoid redundancy. At any rate, as always, I am grateful for your time and assistance.

1. It is a metal chassis, and instructions say "the control should be connected to ground (earth) since it is a metal chassis." Per your statement above, you mention connecting the ground leads to the metal chassis - but I don't believe there are any terminals for them. That's why I was stumped - how do I "connect the control to ground"....when here aren't any posts on the board?

So, in this case, would I just draw the green wire from both the motor and AC inside the box, twist-connector them together? Or should I do something like solder both somewhere on the chassis?

On the potentiometer, thank you. You mean, twist the 3 color wires together, and not the copper inner strands, correct? Is this twisting just to keep them tidy and out of the way during operation?

Finally, thanks on the fuses, and the switches. AC toggle - before or after the fuse?

Direction: Sorry, you're talking to an electrical child. I see six connections on the switch, and what I believe are 6 connections on your diagram above. I just don't how to literally do it. Most elementary would be the same question as for AC on/off - does the 6 connector direction toggle go before or after motor fuse?

As I have it now, motor unmarked is black coming off motor to A1, with white to A2, per Bodine instructions. Can I just do that, so in your diagram, white off motor CW(-) goes to a toggle connection, black unmarked goes to two more connections. Don't know what the bottom most connection is, nor the two ones going to A1, A2, further to the left.

Again, regretfully, this one, I'll have to ask to talk as if to a child, cbier. I know this must be like pulling eye-teeth. Wish I knew more, but I'm electronically, an illiterate. I do appreciate your help.

 

[cbier60]

Sorry, I just spent 45 minutes giving you the child-speak response and accidentally lost it. Don't have the time or patience to do t again. Here's some quick answers:

1. Put a screw in the threaded hole to connect the grounds to the chassis.
2. Yes, twist the 3 color wires together.
3. Switches before or after the fuse doesn't matter.
4. I have no idea what you mean by Don't know what the bottom most connection is, nor the two ones going to A1, A2, further to the left.. The figure seems pretty self-explanatory.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes, you can.
As long as there are flats or indentations on the shafts, for the set screw to seat.
A drop of Loctite thread locker, (not the red variety!), on the set screws is a good idea, as well as a before use inspection to ensure the screws are tight.

Seats extremely tight, though not much more room on the screw. I've used red and blue for gunsmithing, but can't recall blue's strength - "medium?" And I have to say, not that it's mounted all purdy on the mill and everything, would you still use loctite? (Leading question)

 

[Stealthcruiser]

Yes, I would still use Loctite blue, ( yes, medium, removable).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yes, I would still use Loctite blue, ( yes, medium, removable).

OK, thanks Stealth. I had all 3 colors, for various things, just couldn't remember which was the true "permanent" and which was reversible.

It looks great with the hub on board, and with 3 flat sides, anchors down like a champ. Very happy.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Sorry, I just spent 45 minutes giving you the child-speak response and accidentally lost it. Don't have the time or patience to do t again. Here's some quick answers:

1. Put a screw in the threaded hole to connect the grounds to the chassis.
2. Yes, twist the 3 color wires together.
3. Switches before or after the fuse doesn't matter.
4. I have no idea what you mean by Don't know what the bottom most connection is, nor the two ones going to A1, A2, further to the left.. The figure seems pretty self-explanatory.

Thanks Cbier. You've done a considerable amount here to help. I'll try to work it out from here. On the directional switch, I meant the two left-most connections showing in your diagram (I presume that's what the black circles are, on that directional toggle switch since there's 6 connections on the switch and 6 circles on your diagram), one on A1, and one on A2.

Edit: BTW, I believe I understand now. I've never actually read a schematic diagram, so I was confused by the way your diagram looked, when the switch itself is in 2 rows of 3. That's how rudimentary it gets! This, I think, does a pretty cool little job for the illiterate.

Funny, fluent in French by 6 or so, strong sense of language, comparative history, 3.97 Berkeley, etc. - but especially anymore, regarding retention, or anything remotely close to engineering - if you want to see twisted wiring with exposed ends, look inside this cranium.

 

[cbier60]

On the directional switch, I meant the two left-most connections showing in your diagram (I presume that's what the black circles are, on that directional toggle switch since there's 6 connections on the switch and 6 circles on your diagram), one on A1, and one on A2.

The black circles really just symbolize the switches, but yes, there is one terminal per circle. The 2 on the left are the center terminals on the switch, referred to as the commons, since they connect to the 2 poles of each switch. Just wire those to A1 & A2.

If you get the switch in hand and then measure the connections with an Ohmmeter with the switch in both positions, it should become clear to you. If it's not already obvious, the middle position for the switch leaves everything disconnected (e.g., OFF).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

The black circles really just symbolize the switches, but yes, there is one terminal per circle. The 2 on the left are the center terminals on the switch, referred to as the commons, since they connect to the 2 poles of each switch. Just wire those to A1 & A2.

If you get the switch in hand and then measure the connections with an Ohmmeter with the switch in both positions, it should become clear to you. If it's not already obvious, the middle position for the switch leaves everything disconnected (e.g., OFF).

Crossed in the mail. You've been tremendously helpful, cbier. Thanks for the patience.

 

[cbier60]

Crossed in the mail. You've been tremendously helpful, cbier. Thanks for the patience.

Yeah, I thought I was going crazy, like I hadn't read your whole response. But then I realized that I had quoted you, and it wasn't all there. That little video definitely makes it clear (I hope). Good luck. Can't wait to see it once you get it all done. I feel like a proud Mama.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

I've yet to find the cabinet I want to use (easily a dozen that would work, from our local HfH), just wanted to wire it up. I'll need to raise the mill some, as you can see.

I didn't blow up. To the right is the main on-off toggle, center is the Pot (I have the dial and plate), closest to view is DPDT/polarity switch. Put it through it's paces, and it performs beautifully.

Thanks all, in particular cbier. Learned quite a bit.

Happy Thanksgiving, fellow USA'ns. Happy, every other brewer here!

 

[cbier60]

Glad you got it all figured out. That Bud box looks good. I assume the KBWD16 is inside. Looking forward to seeing it once you get it all mounted.

 

[Gadjobrinus]

Yep, the controller is inside. Learned some things there, too - working in tight spaces, never done this. Just pretty rewarding to see the thing go, respond to the pot and fwd/rev like a champ. Probably get the cabinet on Monday and finish it up. Thanks again!