Mixed fermentation lag time

[BPenny]

i dont think there's a simple answer to the yeast question. but if i had done this and was making a second batch, i think i'd pitch seperately and combine. i dont drink alot of saison, but the ones i think seem to be more popular are tart (pH approaching 4) vs sour (pH in low 3s). so let the philly get super sour. let the saison get super dry. then combine. sour dilutes to tart. and hopefully the saison sticks around to get it super dry.

This is what I would recommend as well. If you have the fermentor space, just take your time and let the sour batch keep doing it’s thing. When you have time, make another batch with whatever saison yeast you want. When it comes to sour beers, I usually let then sit in primary for about a month before I even think about packaging or checking gravity, and I have generally gotten better results by blending them anyway. Personally, I have seen the benefit of keeping a few carboys of aged wild/sour beers around that I will usually blend with younger saison style beers, kind of like a solera or a bière de coupage. Sour/farmhouse style beers can be frustrating if you try to control them too much, or speed the process up, but if you can be patient and flexible with your process and expectations, you will be rewarded with amazingly complex and balanced saisons.

 

[SRJHops]

Reporting back...

Well, my Philly Sour Saison is just OK. After a 10 days of carbonating it's drinking like a slightly tart wheat beer. The ph only got to 3.8, at least on this first measure. (Will measure again this weekend.)

The high ph is disappointing, because I used 5% corn sugar, which was supposed to increase the acidity. 3.8 isn't even really a sour beer. However, it's still very drinkable, and I have a few gallons sitting on some fruit, so I have higher hopes for those.

I'm not getting much Saison character, though it could start to come through after a few more weeks. Still, I think my conclusion is that I should have pitched a lot more Saison yeast. Though even that might not have worked...

As for Philly Sour yeast, I am just not sure. I really need to figure out how to get it under 3.5 ph.

 

[SanPancho]

id wonder if this is simply something that will happen when you copitch philly sour. my understanding is that its acid production is tied in with its normal fermentation process. so possibly "sharing" the sugars/fermentation with the saison caused it to not have enough activity to generate the acid required to get down to low-mid 3s. essentially it only did a "half" ferment and therefore didnt generate the acid it would have if it had fermented on its own...

someone else with better understanding of the metabolic pathways would have to chime in tho, as my understanding isnt expert by any means.

but maybe another indication that philly is best pitched on its own and then blended if you want sour.

 

[SRJHops]

id wonder if this is simply something that will happen when you copitch philly sour. my understanding is that its acid production is tied in with its normal fermentation process. so possibly "sharing" the sugars/fermentation with the saison caused it to not have enough activity to generate the acid required to get down to low-mid 3s. essentially it only did a "half" ferment and therefore didnt generate the acid it would have if it had fermented on its own...

someone else with better understanding of the metabolic pathways would have to chime in tho, as my understanding isnt expert by any means.

but maybe another indication that philly is best pitched on its own and then blended if you want sour.

I had hoped it would sour first, and then I could pitch the Saison yeast. But my plan did not work. I didn't get enough souring, and the Saison yeast did not take off.

 

[SRJHops]

So I decided to open the bottles and dose them with some lactic acid. It worked! Still not much Saison flavor, but at least they are sour.

Kind of begs the question.. maybe I should just make a Saison and add lactic post fermentation. I suppose using Philly would reduce the amount of lactic I'd need. But just tossing in a few ounces of lactic might be less work than doing a split batch...

 

[IslandLizard]

I had hoped it would sour first, and then I could pitch the Saison yeast. But my plan did not work. I didn't get enough souring, and the Saison yeast did not take off.

I'm still puzzled about the lack of souring from your Philly Sour. One of our club brewers has been using that yeast for Red Flanders the past year and a half, and they are quite puckering! The first one he did was definitely the most sour beer in a 10-12 bottle/growler sour beer lineup, in a mini "sour hour."

Now, I'm not sure how many packs he's pitching in his batches. Could that have something to do with it?

 

[SRJHops]

I'm still puzzled about the lack of souring from your Philly Sour. One of our club brewers has been using that yeast for Red Flanders the past year and a half, and they are quite puckering! The first one he did was definitely the most sour beer in a 10-12 bottle/growler sour beer lineup, in a mini "sour hour."

Now, I'm not sure how many packs he's pitching in his batches. Could that have something to do with it?

Well, when I pitched the Saison yeast it appeared to stop the souring... And by then the wort was too acidic for the Saison yeast to work very well, if much at all. So I did not get a sour Saison as planned.

Bottom line is you can't easily co-pitch when using Philly...

I could try a BIG pitch of the second yeast, but the wort would be really acidic. I think that is why the Saison yeast did not work. But I only pitched one pack of Be-134.

Next time, I think I will just do a split batch and blend, then adjust with a little lactic acid if the pH isn't where I want it.

I am going to email the manufacturer and see if they will share tips for co-pitching.

 

[SRJHops]

Turns out that a different yeast, Sourvisiae, from the same company, would have been a better choice. It's a GMO sacch yeast that sours, and can be co-pitched from the start.

On its own it will give a final pH of 3, which is a bit too tart for me. But I wonder if the pH would be a bit higher when co-pitched? I might start a new thread and see if anyone has done it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's way geekier than is needed to directly answer this question, but there's a new paper been published on gene expression in regular yeast in response to being fermented with the Philly Sour species and Torulaspora delbruekii (same species as WLP603 among others) which I've posted in more detail about over on the main Philly Sour thread - which if you've not read then I strongly recommend, including the links to the suigeneris blog where things that affect acidity with Philly and Sourvisiae are discussed. Just in general, it's better to keep on the one thread rather than spread discussion over lots of different ones :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...perience-to-share.682096/page-10#post-9342412
Yes the Philly Sour species is a relatively "weak" competitor against "regular" yeast.

 

[SRJHops]

It's way geekier than is needed to directly answer this question, but there's a new paper been published on gene expression in regular yeast in response to being fermented with the Philly Sour species and Torulaspora delbruekii (same species as WLP603 among others) which I've posted in more detail about over on the main Philly Sour thread - which if you've not read then I strongly recommend, including the links to the suigeneris blog where things that affect acidity with Philly and Sourvisiae are discussed. Just in general, it's better to keep on the one thread rather than spread discussion over lots of different ones :

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...perience-to-share.682096/page-10#post-9342412
Yes the Philly Sour species is a relatively "weak" competitor against "regular" yeast.

Thanks! I will check out that thread.

In the past week I've done more research, started that new Sourvisiae thread, and even corresponded with Lallemand.

My current learning is indeed that co-pitching another yeast with Philly Sour is not a good idea. I do plan to keep using it on its own.

Sourvisiae, on the other hand, is a GMO sacch yeast, so it can be co-pitched. Could take a few batches to dial it in, but pitching 60-70 percent of a different yeast (example: Saison) and 30-40 percent Sourvisiae would be a good place to start.

That percent blend should give the dominant yeast a chance to do its thing, and the Sourvisiae then adds some tartness. I do think having some lactic on hand to lower the final pH a bit would still be prudent.

At least this is what I learned from Lallemand and others. Will go check out that thread to see if that is what others are doing.