Missed OG mark in first all grain brew

[David Kozelenko]

Hi, I brewed a pale ale with a 10lb grain bill of 9lbs 2 row, 1/2lb carapils and 1/2lb crystal 20l. This was done in a Brewzilla with 24qts of strike water and accounting for 5 qts grain abortion and 3qts boil off, I sparged with 6qts or so and have 5.5 gallons in my primary fermenter. When cooling my wort I drew a sample and found my OG was around 1.032 not 1.048 as expected. To rescue the beer, I added 1lb of dme to bring the wort to a 1.042 SG before adding yeast. At this point my fermentor was almost full to the brim so i bailed out some of the wort to leave me with 5.5 gallons. In hindsight, I should have taken the wort level down to accommodate the dme, oh well. I had the grain milled the day before at my local brewery supply store and the husks looked cracked, not everything ground to flour like consistency. I mashed at 152F for 1 hour and the boiled for 1 hour before cooling and transferring to the fermenter. I was wondering what went wrong here ie why did I miss the Brewer's Friend calculated OG so badly? The grain looked ok to my rookie eye and I mashed at 152F. Any ideas of where I went wrong? Did I over sparge? I was hoping for a close to 5% abv but will have to settle for about 4.2 this time. Thanks in advance for any help. PS, I was thinking of buying a refractometer so I could check my SG after the mash so that if I had to add dme, i could do it during the boil, is this a good idea? Thanks, Dave

 

[Zadkiel]

What efficiency value was selected in brewer's friend (not familiar with it to know how it's efficiency settings work) and what efficiency do you have to manually adjust it to in order to get it to show 1.032 instead?
Were you relying on the brewzilla temp sensor or using a secondary probe into the mash?
What temperature was your sparge water? You didn't over-sparge, if anything you should have used less mash water and more sparge water. In my Brewzilla I split about 60% mash 40% sparge.
Did you recirculate during mash? If so how high was the flow on the recirc and did you adjust the flow using the manual knob or the pump value (good answers are yes, low flow, knob)

 

[RM-MN]

The first 3 causes of low mash efficiency are:
1 The crush.
2. The crush.
3. The crush.

A refractometer will give you a quick reading of the gravity so you can make a choice between extending the mash (90 minutes might have helped) or adding DME.

The real solution is to mill the grain yourself. A cheap Corona mill will get you there but it might take a few batches to get it right. Same will be true of any other mill.

 

[fluketamer]

i agree the crush is big. but there are a few things you can do to help . stir the grain bed a few times in the first 20 mins or so. that helps me at least.
dont oversparge.
acid malt can lower the pH and i think that helps my efficiency.
i dont think 90 mins has much over 60 mins in terms of efficieny

i think mashing at lower temps yields more sugar .(up to a point)

 

[DBhomebrew]

You didn't miss your OG. You haven't assessed your particular system/process to ascertain its lauter efficiency yet. You hit the side of the barn you were aiming at, well done.

Any particular suggestions of how to 'fix' things don't mean much until you gather more information. Your car won't move, mechanics are suggesting a fuel additive, new tires, a new alternator. Maybe it's just stuck in the mud. You have to do some system/process sussing before knowing whether crush, pH, temp, or whatever might help. Maybe nothing's wrong at all.

 

[mac_1103]

The first 3 causes of low mash efficiency are:
1 The crush.
2. The crush.
3. The crush.

You forgot one - the crush. But seriously, there are some other big ones - dough balls for instance.

BTW, 1.048 from that grain bill in Brewer's Friend would be 72% brewhouse efficiency; 1.032 is 48%.

 

[Bobby_M]

Hi, I brewed a pale ale with a 10lb grain bill of 9lbs 2 row, 1/2lb carapils and 1/2lb crystal 20l. This was done in a Brewzilla with 24qts of strike water and accounting for 5 qts grain abortion and 3qts boil off, I sparged with 6qts or so and have 5.5 gallons in my primary fermenter. When cooling my wort I drew a sample and found my OG was around 1.032 not 1.048 as expected. To rescue the beer, I added 1lb of dme to bring the wort to a 1.042 SG before adding yeast. At this point my fermentor was almost full to the brim so i bailed out some of the wort to leave me with 5.5 gallons. In hindsight, I should have taken the wort level down to accommodate the dme, oh well. I had the grain milled the day before at my local brewery supply store and the husks looked cracked, not everything ground to flour like consistency. I mashed at 152F for 1 hour and the boiled for 1 hour before cooling and transferring to the fermenter. I was wondering what went wrong here ie why did I miss the Brewer's Friend calculated OG so badly? The grain looked ok to my rookie eye and I mashed at 152F. Any ideas of where I went wrong? Did I over sparge? I was hoping for a close to 5% abv but will have to settle for about 4.2 this time. Thanks in advance for any help. PS, I was thinking of buying a refractometer so I could check my SG after the mash so that if I had to add dme, i could do it during the boil, is this a good idea? Thanks, Dave

If you had to discard wort because your fermenter was too full, you need to tweak your volumes calculation. Most likely, you didn't boil off as much volume as the software profile initially predicted. If you're running the 120v version, the boil off is closer to .5 an hour. It certainly was NOT the 1 pound of DME that displaced too much.

With that little grain, you can easily run it as a no sparge with the following parameters:
68% efficiency

Batch Volume: 5.5 gal (into the fermenter)

Boil Time: 60 min

Mash Water: 7.23 gal

Total Water: 7.23 gal

Boil Volume: 6.49 gal

Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043


The benefit of running it as a no sparge is that you can pull samples from the mash and keep it going until the pre boil gravity is reached. Coarser grain crushes take longer to convert so just wait until you get there. If it's stalling, raise the temperature upwards a bit and see if it helps. Yes, a refractometer will let you test the mash wort gravity however often you want. I'd recommend at the 30 minute mark and then every 10 minutes thereafter so you can chart the gravity rise (and learn).

Your crush was probably a bit coarse. If a good portion of the kernels looked intact, whether uncracked or just slightly cracked open, that's going to take a long time to convert. The ones that are not even cracked are not going to convert or the sugar is not going to make it out either way.

The Brewzilla being a recirculating system can't handle a huge portion of fine powder/flour but there's a happy medium to be reached that you'll learn in time.

Add 10% more grain for your next batch for starters and have them crush it a bit finer.

 

[David Kozelenko]

What efficiency value was selected in brewer's friend (not familiar with it to know how it's efficiency settings work) and what efficiency do you have to manually adjust it to in order to get it to show 1.032 instead?
Were you relying on the brewzilla temp sensor or using a secondary probe into the mash?
What temperature was your sparge water? You didn't over-sparge, if anything you should have used less mash water and more sparge water. In my Brewzilla I split about 60% mash 40% sparge.
Did you recirculate during mash? If so how high was the flow on the recirc and did you adjust the flow using the manual knob or the pump value (good answers are yes, low flow, knob)

I think the efficiency was set to 70%. I used the brewzilla temp probe and I also shot the wort with a temp gun I have so I think I was close to or on the correct mash temp. I started with 23 litres of strike water and then sparged with maybe 6. As for recirc, I did for the entire mash but kept the flow rate to a trickle. I saw a video where a guy started to recirc slow the increased the flow later. I went slow for the hole mash as I didn't want to cavitate the pump. Should I have recirced faster? For 10lbs of grain, what would you use for strike water. I thought 10lbs would be 15 qts so I did that plus 8 qts of dead space for 23 Litres as mash water. What would you have filled to for this grain bill? Thanks for your advice...I appreciate it!

 

[David Kozelenko]

If you had to discard wort because your fermenter was too full, you need to tweak your volumes calculation. Most likely, you didn't boil off as much volume as the software profile initially predicted. If you're running the 120v version, the boil off is closer to .5 an hour. It certainly was NOT the 1 pound of DME that displaced too much.

With that little grain, you can easily run it as a no sparge with the following parameters:
68% efficiency

Batch Volume: 5.5 gal (into the fermenter)

Boil Time: 60 min

Mash Water: 7.23 gal

Total Water: 7.23 gal

Boil Volume: 6.49 gal

Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043


The benefit of running it as a no sparge is that you can pull samples from the mash and keep it going until the pre boil gravity is reached. Coarser grain crushes take longer to convert so just wait until you get there. If it's stalling, raise the temperature upwards a bit and see if it helps. Yes, a refractometer will let you test the mash wort gravity however often you want. I'd recommend at the 30 minute mark and then every 10 minutes thereafter so you can chart the gravity rise (and learn).

Your crush was probably a bit coarse. If a good portion of the kernels looked intact, whether uncracked or just slightly cracked open, that's going to take a long time to convert. The ones that are not even cracked are not going to convert or the sugar is not going to make it out either way.

The Brewzilla being a recirculating system can't handle a huge portion of fine powder/flour but there's a happy medium to be reached that you'll learn in time.

Add 10% more grain for your next batch for starters and have them crush it a bit finer.

Well I ordered a couple of all grain beer kits from a supply store(grain to g

If you had to discard wort because your fermenter was too full, you need to tweak your volumes calculation. Most likely, you didn't boil off as much volume as the software profile initially predicted. If you're running the 120v version, the boil off is closer to .5 an hour. It certainly was NOT the 1 pound of DME that displaced too much.

With that little grain, you can easily run it as a no sparge with the following parameters:
68% efficiency

Batch Volume: 5.5 gal (into the fermenter)

Boil Time: 60 min

Mash Water: 7.23 gal

Total Water: 7.23 gal

Boil Volume: 6.49 gal

Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.043


The benefit of running it as a no sparge is that you can pull samples from the mash and keep it going until the pre boil gravity is reached. Coarser grain crushes take longer to convert so just wait until you get there. If it's stalling, raise the temperature upwards a bit and see if it helps. Yes, a refractometer will let you test the mash wort gravity however often you want. I'd recommend at the 30 minute mark and then every 10 minutes thereafter so you can chart the gravity rise (and learn).

Your crush was probably a bit coarse. If a good portion of the kernels looked intact, whether uncracked or just slightly cracked open, that's going to take a long time to convert. The ones that are not even cracked are not going to convert or the sugar is not going to make it out either way.

The Brewzilla being a recirculating system can't handle a huge portion of fine powder/flour but there's a happy medium to be reached that you'll learn in time.

Add 10% more grain for your next batch for starters and have them crush it a bit finer.

lass) and will try again soon.

What efficiency value was selected in brewer's friend (not familiar with it to know how it's efficiency settings work) and what efficiency do you have to manually adjust it to in order to get it to show 1.032 instead?
Were you relying on the brewzilla temp sensor or using a secondary probe into the mash?
What temperature was your sparge water? You didn't over-sparge, if anything you should have used less mash water and more sparge water. In my Brewzilla I split about 60% mash 40% sparge.
Did you recirculate during mash? If so how high was the flow on the recirc and did you adjust the flow using the manual knob or the pump value (good answers are yes, low flow, knob)

The first 3 causes of low mash efficiency are:
1 The crush.
2. The crush.
3. The crush.

A refractometer will give you a quick reading of the gravity so you can make a choice between extending the mash (90 minutes might have helped) or adding DME.

The real solution is to mill the grain yourself. A cheap Corona mill will get you there but it might take a few batches to get it right. Same will be true of any other mill.

I will get a refractometer and watch my gravity as I mash next time and going forward. As for crush size, I was at the mercy of the store as I just asked for 10lbs of grain, I sat down and had a beer there as I waited for it to be milled. I understand the husks should be cracked and intact. It looked that way to me but what do I know? Any advice on a good grain mill? Thanks for your help

 

[David Kozelenko]

You didn't miss your OG. You haven't assessed your particular system/process to ascertain its lauter efficiency yet. You hit the side of the barn you were aiming at, well done.

Any particular suggestions of how to 'fix' things don't mean much until you gather more information. Your car won't move, mechanics are suggesting a fuel additive, new tires, a new alternator. Maybe it's just stuck in the mud. You have to do some system/process sussing before knowing whether crush, pH, temp, or whatever might help. Maybe nothing's wrong at all.

What specifically do you want to know about my first brewing attempt? With a brewzilla equipment profile and a suggested 70% efficiency using Safale S04 ale yeast I was shown an OG of 1.048 on the Brewer's Friend calculator but I got 1.032! I mashed at 65-67C for 1 hour, then sparged and boiled for 1 hour. When I was cooling the wart I used the ball valve and filled my hydrometer tube, cooled it and found that I had a low OG. To correct that miss I added 1lb of pilsener dme that I had to get a brew that would have a decent abv. As for the grains, I had the store mill my grains and the husks looked cracked...ok to me. Like I said I don't know where this went wrong, old grain? bad crush? I guess the strike water volume potentially being high would reduce my sparge capacity lowering my end efficiency some but it shouldn't have been the reason for the low OG. So what do you think?

 

[Bobby_M]

The kernels need to be a little finer than cracked. That's the main problem. Don't just take what they give you. Ask for a slightly finer crush.

 

[David Kozelenko]

The first 3 causes of low mash efficiency are:
1 The crush.
2. The crush.
3. The crush.

A refractometer will give you a quick reading of the gravity so you can make a choice between extending the mash (90 minutes might have helped) or adding DME.

The real solution is to mill the grain yourself. A cheap Corona mill will get you there but it might take a few batches to get it right. Same will be true of any other mill.

Hi RM, the husks were cracked open and was not milled into powder so I thought it looked okay as far as I could tell. I just bought a new digital temp pen to know for sure what my mash temp or will be next time and I will buy a refractometer. I was hoping to just buy milled grains as I start but do you think I should man up to a mill and do my own to get the proper crush? Thanks for the advice

 

[mac_1103]

With a brewzilla equipment profile and a suggested 70% efficiency using Safale S04 ale yeast I was shown an OG of 1.048 on the Brewer's Friend calculator but I got 1.032!

The yeast isn't going to have any impact on OG. As I said above, 5.5 gallons at 1.048 from that grain bill would be 72% efficiency. As Bobby said above, if you had to discard wort because your fermenter was too full then maybe you had more than 5.5 gallons. Overshooting your target volume is a great way to undershoot your target OG. So what kind of fermenter is it and how did you measure or estimate the volume in it?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Hi RM, the husks were cracked open and was not milled into powder so I thought it looked okay as far as I could tell. I just bought a new digital temp pen to know for sure what my mash temp or will be next time and I will buy a refractometer. I was hoping to just buy milled grains as I start but do you think I should man up to a mill and do my own to get the proper crush? Thanks for the advice

Who'd you get your grain from? Morebeer.com is pretty notorious for barely crushing the barley. Bobby_M's brewhardware.com will give you a great crush. Maybe if you mentioned where you live, someone could recommend a good online (or maybe even local-ish) vendor.

Personally, I think having my own mill is really convenient.

 

[RM-MN]

Hi RM, the husks were cracked open and was not milled into powder so I thought it looked okay as far as I could tell. I just bought a new digital temp pen to know for sure what my mash temp or will be next time and I will buy a refractometer. I was hoping to just buy milled grains as I start but do you think I should man up to a mill and do my own to get the proper crush? Thanks for the advice

You don't get starch to sugar conversion until the starch is gelatinized. The smaller the grain particles,. the faster the starch gelatinizes. Going to a tighter crush makes the starch more accessible to the water for the gelatinization.
Going to a 90 minute mash gives a bit more time for that to happen but with a coarse crush this still won't be sufficient. Because I brew in a bag, I can mill my grain very fine and it takes much less for gelatinization and conversion to occur than the standard 60 minute mash.

 

[David Kozelenko]

Who'd you get your grain from? Morebeer.com is pretty notorious for barely crushing the barley. Bobby_M's brewhardware.com will give you a great crush. Maybe if you mentioned where you live, someone could recommend a good online (or maybe even local-ish) vendor.

Personally, I think having my own mill is really convenient.

I got my grain from a lhbs in ontario on the edge of Toronto. I just ordered a couple of 5g kits from another beer supply store in Winnipeg, Grain to Glass(they have a Youtube channel) and the price was good so we will see. Brew day next week when I have the kits and time and will try again

The kernels need to be a little finer than cracked. That's the main problem. Don't just take what they give you. Ask for a slightly finer crush.

View attachment 881727

The kernels need to be a little finer than cracked. That's the main problem. Don't just take what they give you. Ask for a slightly finer crush.

View attachment 881727

 

[David Kozelenko]

The attached photo looked nothing like my grain, it still looked like full kernels just split in most cases. I think you just nailed it for me. Thanks so much. Just to be clear, the crushed grain pic you attached, is that the crush size you use on a Brewzilla? Thanks again!

 

[David Kozelenko]

The attached photo looked nothing like my grain, it still looked like full kernels just split in most cases. I think you just nailed it for me. Thanks so much. Just to be clear, the crushed grain pic you attached, is that the crush size you use on a Brewzilla? Thanks again!

You don't get starch to sugar conversion until the starch is gelatinized. The smaller the grain particles,. the faster the starch gelatinizes. Going to a tighter crush makes the starch more accessible to the water for the gelatinization.
Going to a 90 minute mash gives a bit more time for that to happen but with a coarse crush this still won't be sufficient. Because I brew in a bag, I can mill my grain very fine and it takes much less for gelatinization and conversion to occur than the standard 60 minute mash.

You don't get starch to sugar conversion until the starch is gelatinized. The smaller the grain particles,. the faster the starch gelatinizes. Going to a tighter crush makes the starch more accessible to the water for the gelatinization.
Going to a 90 minute mash gives a bit more time for that to happen but with a coarse crush this still won't be sufficient. Because I brew in a bag, I can mill my grain very fine and it takes much less for gelatinization and conversion to occur than the standard 60 minute mash.

Youtube videos for the brewzilla make it look so easy but as I am learning, there is a lot to it. I researched a lot but am still so green, learned a lot on this first batch. Going to buy a refractometer to track SG through the mash process, live and learn, right? Thanks for the advice!

 

[Jim R]

You are probably better off buying your own grain mill instead of spending money on a refractometer. Once I got my processes down including my milling, I don't even bother checking gravity anymore. I know it will be fine.

 

[tracer bullet]

I don't disagree about owning a mill, but I've come to realize there are some reliable shops and so my mill goes unused these days. Bobby here as an example is a sponsor and runs https://www.brewhardware.com/Default.asp , and can properly run a mill.

Agreed with what's been said, if it was your first one, and it ends up drinkable, you've done well. There's a lot to do all in one go, not going to get it the first time.

 

[hungupdown]

...... When I was cooling the wart I used the ball valve and filled my hydrometer tube, cooled it and found that I had a low OG.

There will (usually, depending on your set up) be some un-utilised water in the pipework (to the tap /ball valve).

Did you first drain some off and discard it / add it back, before drawing the sample that you measured?

Also when measuring SG (which I guess was using a hydrometer), did you add in the hydrometer temperature correction factor?

A refractometer is easier. In that after a few seconds, the tiny sample will have cooled to the refractometer temperature. And it does any temperature correction needed.
Refractometer downside, is that it's only accurate for simple sugars.
With a mix that includes complex sugars, like you get in beer, a refractometer is only a guide.

I initially (on new Brewzilla system) used a refractometer to monitor the progress of the mash. When reading stops changing, the mash is complete.

 

[Snuffy]

Did your recipe claim to produce 5.5 gallons or 5 gallons?

Work on your crush, sure. I would reduce the sparge by a quart or 2 to compensate for the over estimated boil off and absorption volume. 10% too much water is your biggest hit to the OG. I have had a similar experience with the Grainfather. I'm sure you could do it by tweaking the loss numbers in the software, but I just adjust boil volume and try again.

 

[Zadkiel]

Just to be clear, the crushed grain pic you attached, is that the crush size you use on a Brewzilla? Thanks again!

This is how I order mine crushed for my brewzilla

Grain crushed like this, plus doing a manual sparge, gives me about 90% efficiency.