So a few weeks ago I started brewing a robust black onyx porter (also steeped vanilla and oak cubes in bourbon as well). After brewing my starting Gravity was 1.070. Two weeks later when I went to move it to secondary the final gravity was only 1.030. I was told by the local brew shop that the yeast I was using (whyeast 1028 which I pitched using a starter) and the amount of malt I was using should give me a target gravity of about 1.010 (ABV of about 7.5-8%). But I fell very far short of it. Is this something that might change in secondary? Or did I do something horribly wrong?
Missed my final gravity.....what did I do wrong?
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JLeuck64
Well-Known Member
You could just leave it in the primary for a few more weeks to see if it continues to ferment down more. That is if you haven't already moved it to the secondary...
Don't be afraid of leaving those high gravity brews in the primary for extended periods ( a month or more) for it can take that long for the yeast to do their thing.
Don't be afraid of leaving those high gravity brews in the primary for extended periods ( a month or more) for it can take that long for the yeast to do their thing.
Blast. I literally just got done moving it over and cleaning out the carboy........shoot. For a second opinion, do you think 9.9 lbs of dark liquid extract is enough? I'm disappointed, this puts me behind 2 weeks or more for this brew, I planned on letting it condition in secondary for a few months, seems like it might be a waste.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
There should be enough yeast to finish fermentation, but it will be slower than it would have been in primary. Assuming that your fermentation temperature is reasonable, the low attenuation sounds like substrate limitation. My guess would be nitrogen, but it could also be sterol. You might try adding some yeast nutrient.
I'm still a little new to this, what do you mean by substrate limitation? Also what about nitrogen? Should I just pitch the yeast nutrient into the batch right away as is?
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
9.9# of dark lme? Did you use any pale lme or dme? I would guess that the darker extracts have a lower degree of fermentability.
I used DME, and my fermentation temp is between 64-67 degrees. Is there a chance that I didn't give the starter enough time? The bubbler was still going on the starter batch, but I had a nice yeast cake layer on the bottom so I thought I was good to go. Fermentation took hold a few hours after putting it into the fermenter.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Substrate limitation is when a microorganism runs out of one of it's vital nutrient. Malt extract has plenty of carbohydrates for the yeast, but a limited amount of FAN (free amino nitrogen which is nitrogen that yeast can use). It sounds like your starter was fine assuming that it was two days on a stir plate. If that is the case, then should be fine in terms of sterols, which leaves nitrogen limitation.
1 tsp of yeast nutrient boiled then cooled in a small amount of water should do it.
Check the malt data sheet for fermentability.
1 tsp of yeast nutrient boiled then cooled in a small amount of water should do it.
Check the malt data sheet for fermentability.
Will that be effective stirring in yeast nutrient into the secondary since I already transferred it? And will 1 tsp of yeast nutrient be the solution to prevent this from happening in the future for a 5 gal batch? I was also told that liquid yeast is stored in vials that have yeast nutrient in it. Was I misinformed? Or is it just not enough of the right kind of nutrient?
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
It will be effective, but not as effective as in the primary because there is less yeast in the secondary. From your description of the problem I'm pretty confident that this will work for this purpose, but I can't say this will work every time. Generally speaking adding yeast nutrient will help the batch attenuate more quickly.
How would you use yeast nutrients in the best case scenario? Would you put together the yeast starter? Or would you put it in with everything when you do your boil?
Also I went back and was re-reading the advice in this thread and I noticed I made a mistake before in saying I used DME when in reality I used LME. For some. Reason my brain thought DME was dark malt extract.... When it is really dry malt extract...... Long story short.... I used liquid dark malt extract
I wonder it the all dark liquid extract left so much unfermentable material in the wort that you are as low as it is going to get?? I have never used any extract darker than amber.
It could be, but I would figure that it shouldn't, I based my recipie off of one from. My local HBS that between starting and finishing gravity it ended at 5.4AbV....to elevate it to a higher gravity I increased the LME by 50% and used a yeast starter that according to the manufacturer is good for 11% ABC before it becomes overwhelmed.
sandyeggoxj
Well-Known Member
Funny thing.... I was just reading that chapter just a few moments ago trying to figure out what is going on Lol.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
LME is notorious for poor fermentability. Ray Daniels in Designing Great Beers Goes into details. If I remember correct it ranges from 40% to 75% fermentable. The water in the LME allows for maillard reactions to continue while in storage which reduces the fermentability.
.. so the yeast nutrient may not help.
lazarwolf
Well-Known Member
Woodland for the win. Also, buy woodlands book. He gets into detail about yeast and how they do the magic they do.
Always remember the 80/20 rule in this hobby, 80% of the conversation is about wort production, and only 20% about yeast. But 80% of the issues we have as home brewers are related to the yeast, and only 20% to wort production. To Understand yeasty magic... is to understand brewing.
Always remember the 80/20 rule in this hobby, 80% of the conversation is about wort production, and only 20% about yeast. But 80% of the issues we have as home brewers are related to the yeast, and only 20% to wort production. To Understand yeasty magic... is to understand brewing.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Thanks! I'm glad you liked the book!
I didn't see you mention it so just to be sure, you are taking the FG reading with a hydrometer and not a refractometer correct?
Assuming you're using a hydrometer I agree with the others that with that much dark extract it's probably done fermenting because of the high amount of unfermentables. The original recipe may have attenuated to a lower FG, but by adding 50% more dark extract you are also increasing the amount of unfermentable sugar (which is pretty high in dark extract) proportionally.
Assuming you're using a hydrometer I agree with the others that with that much dark extract it's probably done fermenting because of the high amount of unfermentables. The original recipe may have attenuated to a lower FG, but by adding 50% more dark extract you are also increasing the amount of unfermentable sugar (which is pretty high in dark extract) proportionally.
Well to be honest, I'm not sure it is done fermenting. Looks like in the secondary carboy there is a steady stream of bubbles for a couple days now and a whole new year cake at the bottom albeit smaller than the on in primary.
Assuming tho that fermentation is mostly over
So I understand that darker extracts have less fermentation sugers in the end, but is it normal to have THAT much left. Seems like 1.030 is a really high final gravity. Could it be that my boil was not vigorous enough. Now that I think about it, it never once made an attempt to boil over.....(I did add the extract in 3 batches over the course of 5 min to hopefully keep from boiling over). Isn't when the work foams up the "hot break"?
Assuming tho that fermentation is mostly over
So I understand that darker extracts have less fermentation sugers in the end, but is it normal to have THAT much left. Seems like 1.030 is a really high final gravity. Could it be that my boil was not vigorous enough. Now that I think about it, it never once made an attempt to boil over.....(I did add the extract in 3 batches over the course of 5 min to hopefully keep from boiling over). Isn't when the work foams up the "hot break"?
If there is a new krausen forming, then that's a good thing. Sounds like it's going to go a bit lower. You didn't answer about the hydrometer vs. refractometer (but it doesn't sound like you're using a refractometer anyway). The reason I ask about that is because a refractometer isn't accurate once alcohol is present in the solution without mathematically adjusting the reading. It will read higher than the true gravity.
The boil doesn't have anything to do with fermentability. The fermentability of extract is set by the manufacturers who do the mashing. As long as you get all of the sugar dissolved in the water you're good. You're basically just making malt Kool-Aid for the yeast to enjoy. Of course the boil is necessary for the hops.
And don't worry about having a strong hot break with extract. Many of the proteins that cause the hot break have already been precipitated out during the manufacturing process.
The boil doesn't have anything to do with fermentability. The fermentability of extract is set by the manufacturers who do the mashing. As long as you get all of the sugar dissolved in the water you're good. You're basically just making malt Kool-Aid for the yeast to enjoy. Of course the boil is necessary for the hops.
And don't worry about having a strong hot break with extract. Many of the proteins that cause the hot break have already been precipitated out during the manufacturing process.
Bowtiebrewery
Well-Known Member
I didnt see anyone mention this, but I wanted to say that your LHBS is a bit incorrect regarding their opinion of what the FG should be at 1.010. For a 1.070 porter, you wouldnt want to ferment that low, especially with the Dark LME you have in there. Some residual sweetness is preferable in that style. Too dry and its going to taste thin and Boozy. Thats not to say that 1.030 is the right FG. 1.020 would be acceptable to end at or 1.016 at the lower end.
If you are seeing fermentation in the secondary... I would leave it alone for a few weeks and then take a hydro sample and see where you end up... Taste it and see what you think. A beer like that will do wonders if aged for a little while... Perfect example of that is Denny Conn's Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter.
If you are seeing fermentation in the secondary... I would leave it alone for a few weeks and then take a hydro sample and see where you end up... Taste it and see what you think. A beer like that will do wonders if aged for a little while... Perfect example of that is Denny Conn's Bourbon Vanilla Imperial Porter.
Well the thing that makes me hesitate is saying fermentation is still happening for sure is that there is no krausen forming. The secondary is filled all the way up to the top of the neck and I don't see any foam like layer at the top. So maybe it's just CO2 being released from the wort? Also I had planned from the beginning to let this beer age for 4 months or so before bottling for the wedding.
I just came back from the LHBS and picked up some yeast nutrient and they suggested when I add it to stir it up a little to add some More O2.
Also yes I am using a hydrometer. Sorry I didn't address this before.
I just came back from the LHBS and picked up some yeast nutrient and they suggested when I add it to stir it up a little to add some More O2.
Also yes I am using a hydrometer. Sorry I didn't address this before.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
I would be hesitant to add oxygen with the high amount of alcohol that is present. You risk alcohol dehydrogenase which will add a "wet cardboard" taste to the beer. Oxygen is needed at the onset of fermentation so that yeast can synthesize sterols. Most yeast nutrient contains ergosterol so there is no need to add oxygen... Although some yeast nutrient is just diammonium phosphate in which case there are no sterols.
What brand was the yeast nutrient?
Oh you said "yeast cake at the bottom" in your previous post. Sorry I misread that and thought you were saying there was a new krausen. Yeah it could definitely just be off gassing then.
I would not add oxygen at this point. If the beer is actually done then this will lead to oxidation and off flavors. And even if it's not done, you may end up adding more oxygen than the yeast can process which will lead to oxidation.
I would not add oxygen at this point. If the beer is actually done then this will lead to oxidation and off flavors. And even if it's not done, you may end up adding more oxygen than the yeast can process which will lead to oxidation.
The yeast nutrient I picked up is "fermax yeast nutrient BSG". I'm. When I racked everything over to the secondary fermenter I had a little more than 5 gallons and filled it all the way up to the top of the neck. So tonight I'll siphon a little out to make room and add a 1tsp of boiled yeast nutrient to the work and stir in slowly. I'll also take another gravity reading since I'll be siphoning out some anyways. How much will a cup of Bourbon affect the gravity so I can adjust for that since the original reading was without the Bourbon added.
Also woodlandbrew I read you have a book you wrote. Where can I find it. I find having multiple sources of literature is helpful and you all being such awesome sources and helping me out I got to get myself a copy.
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
It looks like that one contains diammonium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, yeast hulls, B vitamins and calcium salts. The diammonium phosphate would be important if it is a nitrogen deficiency, and the yeast hulls will help if it is a sterol limit, but not much.
My book is "Brewing Engineering" and is available on Amazon, but you can also get it through my blog: www.woodlandbrew.com
I agree with St. Pug, if the beer tastes fine, then don't worry about what the numbers are.
So I just followed your advice and prepped the yeast nutrients (seemed like you were unimpressed with that brand, do you have a better one in mind?) and am currently waiting for it to cool before adding it to the wort. In the mean time i siphoned some out (to make some room for the nutrients) and took another measurement and taste.
The reading went down maybe just ever so slightly, I am reading a 1.028 if I read from the meniscus. Also there seems to not be much taste to it other that some initial sweetness then a very toasty finish, almost burnt taste that filles the nose to, and I don't seem to get much vanilla. I fear maybe I used to many oak chip (I steeped 1.5oz of medium Toasted French oak in 1cup of bourbon with 3 split and scraped vanilla beans). I might be willing to give it another 2 weeks since I am also going to start a honey mead over the weekend (got all sorts of research to do for that one). I am somewhat on a schedule as I am brewing this beer/mead/cider for my upcoming wedding in October and want these to be served at the reception. I feel if it doesn't come around I might ditch it and either try again (maybe with some dark DME this time) or go in a different direction.
Also woodlandbrew, your book and knowledge on the subject are beyond impressive, I'll absolutely have to pick up a copy in hopes of better understanding what is going on with my beers at a more scientific level. But I feel like I need to better understand the basics first. Fear not, I already have John Palmers "how to brew" and the Charlie Papazian "the complete joy of home brewing fourth edition" (I personally like John palmers book a bit more, seems to flow more logically). I'll be adding your book to my reading table soon!
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Fermax is fine. I actually haven't found a product that has the sterols that are needed for healthy anaerobic cell growth. If you are pitching at least 0.75 billion per liter degree plato, and aerating well at inoculation, it's not really an issue, and effects the subsequent beer more than thee beer used to propagate the cells.
That's a good sign that it's still coming down. With the nutrient it should start going down a little faster. This one might take another few weeks.
I hope you enjoy the book.
lazarwolf
Well-Known Member
Definitely get woodlands book. But, understand woodlands book is a scientific document. I have noted and highlighted all through my copy of it. Really take the time to read and understand it. It doesn't flow like Palmer's book, which is also excellent. But it is v loaded with the stuff you need to know to go to the next level, and he dispels some silly traditions of home brewing too. Plus he's a darn nice guy who is kind enough to help us out.
If your beer had no hop flavor or bitterness at all, not with standing the yeast issues already discussed that are causing your high gravity and sweetness, it can be fixed. You can make a hop tea. Don't kill a batch ever before you come in line and ask if there's a solution.
If your beer had no hop flavor or bitterness at all, not with standing the yeast issues already discussed that are causing your high gravity and sweetness, it can be fixed. You can make a hop tea. Don't kill a batch ever before you come in line and ask if there's a solution.
I'll be taking another reading here over the weekend. My fear is that the only reason the gravity went down at all (could have been 1.029 for as much as I can tell) could be from the 1 cup bourbon that I added in with the secondary.
Of course I don't plan to just ditch the batch just becuase I'm not getting the "warm and fuzzies" RIGHT NOW. I'm going to brew this mead over the weekend and when it is time to rack it over into secondary in a few weeks I'll decide weather or not to try again or just keep going with what I already have.
I also had a feeling by just listening to woodlandbrew talk about beer and the Schoenberg what the yeast are doing, as well as looking at his blog I could tell that his book is easily written at a higher level that a introductory book. Having a good fundamental and basic understanding as a foundation I'm sure will make reading through it feel less like reading Greek and more like I'm being taken back to school. And indeed he/you are and awesome guy!
WoodlandBrew
Well-Known Member
Thanks! Good lick on your brews.
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