British Golden Ale Miraculix Best - Classic English Ale

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well , duh..........:yes:


I have chevalier, first gold and Lyle's and may brew this once the weather warms!

I have not tried it with Chevallier, it just starts bubbeling atm. But my expectations are high, I really like this malt. I think with Chevallier, the spelt and the crystal can be skipped, as it is very flavourfull on its own and has a higher protein content. But I do not know for sure. I agree with your signature.
 
Oops, yes, it should be kg. Cannot edit the post anymore....

If it is too much of a hustle for you, just skip the protein rest. I BIAB, so I just infuse with a calculated amount of boiling water to reach the next temperature step. I use the following calculator, it is pretty much on point: https://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/

I have the suspicion that the protein rest causes chill haze. It does not bother me, but I am investigating now, if the protein rest does much for head retention. If not, I will just leave it out.

I brewed this beer again with the exception that the grain bill is all Chevallier malt with Golden Syrup this time. I skipped the Protein rest. If it works well, then I will skip it in the future.
I have tried the protein rest to try and reduce the amount of chill haze. I used to add gelatin but have stopped doing that after smelling it. Haze does not really bother me too much but if I can reduce it with little effort I would like to do it. So far I have lost two batched trying protein rests so I wont chase that too far.

A short rest at 162/163F seem to help a bit with head retention and a boost to efficiency for me.

the Chevallier malt look interesting but I don't see it local to me.
 
I have tried the protein rest to try and reduce the amount of chill haze. I used to add gelatin but have stopped doing that after smelling it. Haze does not really bother me too much but if I can reduce it with little effort I would like to do it. So far I have lost two batched trying protein rests so I wont chase that too far.

A short rest at 162/163F seem to help a bit with head retention and a boost to efficiency for me.

the Chevallier malt look interesting but I don't see it local to me.
There are multiple versions of protein rests. Temperature too low and the body and head retention will suffer. Temperature high enough but rest for too long, same result as with the temperature being too low.

There are two enzymes active and you want the one that chops bigger proteins into medium sized fragments and not the once that chops it into tiny pieces.

At least this is the theory.
 
Chevallier has been revived by Crisp, so anywhere that stocks Crisp malts should be able to get hold of it if you ask them although it's only grown in tiny amounts and here in the UK works out at about double the price of eg Otter.
 
I just botteled the Chevallier version of this ale. The beer smelled amazing! It tasted also good, but was lacking a bit of the caramel flavour that the original version has due to the lack of crystal malt. Let's see how it is when it is carbed up. I pitched the yeast sunday evening, today is thursday evening, FG was aproximately reached yesterday (FG 1.012, slightly higehr than expexted but had also a slightly higher OG). Today the beer was still a little bit clowdy but this will settle in the bottle and speed up the carbonation :) .
 
So I am just having the first Chevallier only version of this Ale and compared to the original recipe, it is actually a bit disapointing. I mean overall it is a quaffable beer for sure, but it is lacking a bit of body and there is zero head on it. No foam at all, looks almost like a cider.

All the zeast attributes are there, marmelade etc. but the malt itself shows itself not that much.

I skipped the protein rest which was meant to increase head retention, on this one, but it also does not have any wheat or spelt in it, so we will not know which step actually resulted in the loss of head retention.

Actually, I think it would be nice to replace the MO from the original recipe with Chevallier malt, but keept everything, mash schedule included, the same. Maybe increase the total weight of Chevallier a bit, as it tends to not yield the same extract amount as MO does so it has to be compensated for this.

Now I got 26 bottles of a bitter without head but which tastes totally drinkable. Could be worse :)
 
From what I hear is that Chevalier changes over time when kegged or bottled.
You may have sampled a bit to early.
Give it time.
Quick update on this one, had another one yesterday and this one was perfectly fine (except that it still doesn't have any head). It was probably just a bit green when I first tried it. Now everything is coming together and it actually had quite a nice mouthfeel for the fact that it is a sub 4 %abv beer. I guess with about ten percent wheat for the head it would be even better.

But taste wise it is very nice now. Let's say it has 90% of the niceness of the initial version.
 
Now everything is coming together and it actually had quite a nice mouthfeel for the fact that it is a sub 4 %abv beer. I guess with about ten percent wheat for the head it would be even better.
You could also use oat malt for good head.

Here's a Barclay Perkins link to what is probably the first commercial Oatmalt Stout: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/06/lets-brew-wednesday-1909-maclays.html

Note: I have brewed it and a lower ABV version. Interesting. It's not in my regular rotation but I'll probably get to it again.
 
You could also use oat malt for good head.

Here's a Barclay Perkins link to what is probably the first commercial Oatmalt Stout: http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2012/06/lets-brew-wednesday-1909-maclays.html

Note: I have brewed it and a lower ABV version. Interesting. It's not in my regular rotation but I'll probably get to it again.
Oats don't increase head, that's a common misconception that I see quite often. They also do not increase mouthfeel, unless the amount used is ridiculously high. There is a nice article that sums it all up:

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

I really like the blog you linked to, I will probably brew one of the barley wines from there soon :)
 
*Incredulous* Wow, that was the first time you've seen the barclayperkins blog? That is THE source for historic/traditional UK brewing info. It is amazing... careful as you go down that rabbit hole... :mug:
 
*Incredulous* Wow, that was the first time you've seen the barclayperkins blog? That is THE source for historic/traditional UK brewing info. It is amazing... careful as you go down that rabbit hole... :mug:

No no, I've already been reading there since ages, it's just one of my favorite blogs, together with Scott janish and larsblog.
 
Oats don't increase head, that's a common misconception that I see quite often. They also do not increase mouthfeel, unless the amount used is ridiculously high. There is a nice article that sums it all up:

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

I really like the blog you linked to, I will probably brew one of the barley wines from there soon :)
hmmm, interesting link. I'll take that Pepsi challenge and work on a side by side oat malt, flaked oats, no oats comparison. My impression was that oats added to mouth feel and head retention, but that might have all be confirmation bias.

My To Brew list from Shut Up is loooooooooong. And I've probably done two dozen so far, with a number of regular rotation keepers in the low gravity segment. Including a Whitbread 1930 AK with an IBU of 56 and ABV of just 2.4% (I can't find the link but have the recipe downloaded)
 
Found the link: this is pretty much one of the ultimate session beers of all time http://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2011/08/lets-brew-wednesday-1930-whitbread-ak.html
That surely looks really interesting. Does it have any head?

Please let me know how your experiments turn out. I did one a while ago with 3 beers, one all pale Maris otter, the same with 30% oats and then one with 30% flaked barley instead. In my experiments, none did anything to head retention and surprisingly also not to taste. The flaked barley one was cloudy, that was it.
 
hmmm, interesting link. I'll take that Pepsi challenge and work on a side by side oat malt, flaked oats, no oats comparison. My impression was that oats added to mouth feel and head retention

The other thing is that aside from a very brief period when the government forced brewers to use oats in WWII, oats have never played a part in classic English bitters.

And to be honest, I think this whole race for "mouthfeel" is overdone. For one thing - making a bitter too "full" is missing the whole point, that it should slip down easily and not be too heavy. And also I'm quite sensitive to oats and I'm getting rather bored of "modern" beers that go heavy on oats and aren't given enough time before release to condition out the porridge flavour. It feels like oats are the new crystal, the thing that US brewers try to impose on British styles in place of just using a proper low-attenuation yeast, which is the main source of "mouthfeel" in British beers.

I'm not saying don't ever use oats, but I do feel they're being overdone right now.
 
For software guided final beer color consideration, does anyone know the nominal EBC or Lovibond values that should be used in conjunction with Invert #1 and Lyle's Golden Syrup during recipe building? Or is there a color scale for all of the various numerical levels of Invert sugar?
 
Many small (1 Pt. to 1 Qt.?) recipes for Invert Sugar call for adding a slice of lemon, but many claim that this imparts an odd flavor which is not present within commercial Invert Sugars. Would 1/2 gram of citric acid powder be the acid equivalent of a typical slice of lemon? And would this properly invert the sugar without adding any undesired lemon flavor?
 
Many small (1 Pt. to 1 Qt.?) recipes for Invert Sugar call for adding a slice of lemon, but many claim that this imparts an odd flavor which is not present within commercial Invert Sugars. Would 1/2 gram of citric acid powder be the acid equivalent of a typical slice of lemon? And would this properly invert the sugar without adding any undesired lemon flavor?
There is a recipe with lactic acid, but I've also seen some with citric acid. I'll look for the lactic one when I'm home, if nobody else posts it before here.

Edit:
Yeah.... Well..... Northern already posted the recipe in his thread :D
 
So if I use 12 Lovibond for Lyle's Golden Syrup I should be in the ballpark. Correct?
 
For software guided final beer color consideration, does anyone know the nominal EBC or Lovibond values that should be used in conjunction with Invert #1 and Lyle's Golden Syrup during recipe building? Or is there a color scale for all of the various numerical levels of Invert sugar?
I don't think beersmith handles color contribution of invert well, seem like it over estimates it but that could also be me over estimating the color. I am trying to take northern brewers advice and ignore the actual color and just worry about the flavor.
 
Many small (1 Pt. to 1 Qt.?) recipes for Invert Sugar call for adding a slice of lemon, but many claim that this imparts an odd flavor which is not present within commercial Invert Sugars. Would 1/2 gram of citric acid powder be the acid equivalent of a typical slice of lemon? And would this properly invert the sugar without adding any undesired lemon flavor?

I will refer again to the unholymess recipe for invert. I've followed it countless times always with great success.

More directly to your question though, I once tried to make invert with juice from a lemon wedge as I was out of citric. It noticeably tainted the flavor of the sugar. It is just too hard to gauge how much is "too much" with actual juice from a lemon due to the inherent nature of the beast.
 
I found reference indicating that the average lemon contains ~3 grams of citric acid. So if you can nominally get 6 slices out of one, then 0.5 gram seems about right for a single slice. Certainly not more than 0.75 gram. Split the difference and call it 0.625 grams of citric acid in a slice of lemon. And since some of the acid found within a lemon is ascorbic acid, using 0.625 grams of citric acid should compensate for the presence and impact of that acid also.

A level fill using a 1/8 TSP measure = ~0.625 grams, since 1 level TSP = ~5 grams and 1 level TBSP = ~15 grams.
 
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I found reference indicating that the average lemon contains ~3 grams of citric acid. So if you can nominally get 6 slices out of one, then 0.5 gram seems about right for a single slice. Certainly not more than 0.75 gram. Split the difference and call it 0.625 grams of citric acid in a slice of lemon. And since some of the acid found within a lemon is ascorbic acid, using 0.625 grams of citric acid should compensate for the presence and impact of that acid also.

A level fill using a 1/8 TSP measure = ~0.625 grams, since 1 level TSP = ~5 grams and 1 level TBSP = ~15 grams.
I'm sure that some of it doesn't go into solution... I'd stick to lactic acid or citric acid.
 
Going to brew this one tomorrow, slightly tweaked out of necessity. Using Golden Promise instead of MO and First Gold instead of Golding, 1318 for yeast.
 
Going to brew this one tomorrow, slightly tweaked out of necessity. Using Golden Promise instead of MO and First Gold instead of Golding, 1318 for yeast.
Nice!

The yeast is acually THE key ingredient in this recipe. So if you change the yeast, you'll get a completely different beer. Of course, your beer might also end up being a nice one. As long as the yeast produces loads of aromas it should be fine, just different obviously.


Let me know how it turns out please!
 
Nice!

The yeast is acually THE key ingredient in this recipe. So if you change the yeast, you'll get a completely different beer. Of course, your beer might also end up being a nice one. As long as the yeast produces loads of aromas it should be fine, just different obviously.


Let me know how it turns out please!
A09 was unfortunately out of stock both at the online shop I usually buy my stuff at and my LHBS didn't have it, they only have limited selection of liquid yeast. I figured I couldn't go wrong with 1318 but as you say, might not be the same beer in the end... I promise I won't blame YOU if I don't like the result :p
 
A09 was unfortunately out of stock both at the online shop I usually buy my stuff at and my LHBS didn't have it, they only have limited selection of liquid yeast. I figured I couldn't go wrong with 1318 but as you say, might not be the same beer in the end... I promise I won't blame YOU if I don't like the result :p
Ah, I see, it is the other "supposed to be" fullers strain. I actually never tried it myself, only read that it is missing the marmelade flavour that you can find in the fuller's beers. The Imperial Pub definitely has the marmelade flavour, but I do not know about the 1318. At least attenuation etc. should be about the same then :)
 
So, I went by the British Pub in town and had a pint of Fuller's London Pride from a keg. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't taste marmalade. One should be able to notice the marmalade, no? Or does it really need to be on cask vs keg or bottle for the marmalade flavor to come thru?

I am in Seattle, so that's a lot of travel to get here. I avoid the bottles as 1) hard to find and 2) not in an enclosed box.
 
So, I went by the British Pub in town and had a pint of Fuller's London Pride from a keg. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't taste marmalade. One should be able to notice the marmalade, no? Or does it really need to be on cask vs keg or bottle for the marmalade flavor to come thru?

I am in Seattle, so that's a lot of travel to get here. I avoid the bottles as 1) hard to find and 2) not in an enclosed box.

Well, to be honest, I also do not really get "marmelade", but something which is kind of close to some marmelade-ish flavour. I think everybody just agreed on calling it marmelade so that it has a name. I also actually only realised what it is when I found this specific flavour in my own beer.
 
Ah, I see, it is the other "supposed to be" fullers strain.

??? I've never seen 1318 London Ale III linked to Fullers. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Brewlab Thames Valley III?
 
So, I went by the British Pub in town and had a pint of Fuller's London Pride from a keg. Maybe it's just me, but I didn't taste marmalade. One should be able to notice the marmalade, no? Or does it really need to be on cask vs keg or bottle for the marmalade flavor to come thru?

I am in Seattle, so that's a lot of travel to get here. I avoid the bottles as 1) hard to find and 2) not in an enclosed box.

It depends how fresh it is, but I always get marmelade when drinking ESB. There is also a hint of it in London Pride, which is not very hoppy or malty.
 
??? I've never seen 1318 London Ale III linked to Fullers. Are you sure you're not getting confused with Brewlab Thames Valley III?
Hmmm... Now that you are saying it, I am not sure if I might have misinterpreted the description "from one of London's biggest brewerys" or if I actually read it somewhere.
 
I suspect you've misinterpreted it - and forgotten how many breweries London used to have. I've seen 1318 linked to Courage in the past, but since Boddies were bought by Whitbread and Whitbread had one of the biggest yeast banks in the country, it's always possible that there's been some crossed wires somewhere.

I think all that can really be said is that 1318 is not capable on its own of achieving the attenuations that were routine at Strangeways - and that Strangeways is a long, long way from London.
 
Note: this is a repost of Northern Brewer chiming in on a substitute for London III to use with Boddingtons. I don't know how to link to the exact post but it is part way down this pagehttps://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...r-london-ale-iii-aka-boddintons-yeast.654324/

Ah, the quest for the One True Boddies Yeast. It's kinda like the quest for Eldorado, only less achievable.

If you're serious about getting the right yeast, then there's only one realistic option for homebrewers and that's to drop an email to Brewlab saying what beer you're trying to clone, and asking them what they would recommend. In many cases they can't actually say "this is the yeast from X brewery", but they can say "We suggest this yeast if you're trying to clone a beer from X brewery". Subtle difference. :)

What do we know for certain?

Whitbread bought Boddies in 1989, so they would have had access to all Whitbread's resources, including their huge yeast bank, after that time.

The original Boddingtons brewery was in Manchester, 170 miles as the crow flies from London, or over 200 miles by road. So this idea that London Ale III is somehow "the" Boddies yeast just makes no sense at all. I've seen theories that maybe 1318 was a London yeast stored by the Boddies/Whitbread yeast bank but not actually used by them, or that they lost their original yeast and replaced it with a yeast from Courage (of London).

Ron Pattinson has blogged extensively on Boddies, which means we have a load of attenuations for the bitter, which had more or less the same recipe for a century - close to a pale malt/Goldings SMaSH, with maybe 7-10% sugar - so we can get an idea of what kind of yeast they were using :
1901 74.7%
1939 76.7%
1939 77.8%
1951 87.5%
1966 89.6%
1971 91.6%
1974 88.4%
1987 83.6%

We're not looking at your typical southern English sickly-sweet beer - this is classic Northern bitter, dry and hoppy. So forget Windsor and WLP002, they're way off-beam.

One can speculate on the reasons for the increase in attenuation. Some of it will undoubtedly be improving technology on the ingredient side, and there were minor tweaks to the recipe. In 1939 they were using 17-20% maize, which got killed off by WWII, in the 1970s sugar crept up to 13%, in 1987 they'd dropped adjuncts altogether.

The leap in attenuation in WWII is intriguing, and makes me wonder if they either deliberately or accidentally got some diastaticus in there which would allow them to make the same amount of beer from fewer ingredients during wartime.

Anecdotally, Boddies seems to have been notably bitter in the 1970s, but the quality dropped significantly in the recession of the early 1980s - probably sometime in late 1981. There are also rumours that they lost their yeast at some point, which might support the theory that they got yeast from Courage.

But those 90% attenuations look like a diastaticus yeast, which in British terms makes me think of the saison relatives normally found in Yorkshire squares. Indeed WLP038 Manchester is one such yeast, although I don't think we know what brewery it comes from and the official attenuation isn't that great.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I'd use either Notty or 1469.
 
@kmarkstevens
If you click on the post number in the thread it will give you a link to the exact post.

You can also click on the + Quote box and quote the text to a different thread, not sure if that is correct etiquette but it brings the text over without people needing to follow a link.
 
@kmarkstevens
If you click on the post number in the thread it will give you a link to the exact post.

You can also click on the + Quote box and quote the text to a different thread, not sure if that is correct etiquette but it brings the text over without people needing to follow a link.
Ahhhhh, blindingly obvious once you know how. Anyhoo, wanted to properly attribute another excellent post from Northern Brewer
 
@kmarkstevens
If you click on the post number in the thread it will give you a link to the exact post.

You can also click on the + Quote box and quote the text to a different thread, not sure if that is correct etiquette but it brings the text over without people needing to follow a link.
Thanks, I also didn't know that :)
 

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