Minimum town size to support brew pub?

[Qhrumphf]

Not allowing onsite sales is at this point a slim minority. Seems like worst case left is having to sell to a middleman and buy back (is that still the case in Mississippi and Alabama?) but that's not common any more either. As said, some states require food even in a taproom setting. Some breweries do the bare minimum (sometimes very deliberately, saw a "xyz state compliance menu" from a brewery, maybe Indiana, that was "$15 hot dog microwaved to perfection, no bun, $10 can of unheated soup, $20 can of condensed milk" or something to that effect)

Others have nailed it. For a brewpub to be successful it has to be a viable restaurant first. The beer is the extra.

And also demonstrates that alcohol production and sale is complicated legally. Federal, state, and local regulations to deal with.

 

[mcmeador]

I don’t know that you would have to sell food to do well as a business, but I do think you need food in the immediate vicinity. For example, there’s a beer bar in a city not too far from where I live that doesn’t serve food, but they’re sandwiched between a pizza place and a burger place, so people will buy food at one of the two and take it to the bar to eat with their beers. They seem to be doing really well. A small brewery has actually just opened up next to it as well with the same deal. Get food at one of the places on either side and you’re welcome to eat it onsite with your beverages.

Most of the breweries in my city just feature rotating food trucks rather than serve food themselves, but that’s probably not an option in a small town.

With that said, when I hear the term “brewpub,” I assume it is primarily a restaurant that also brews beer. If that’s what the OP’s town is looking for, then I guess whether or not you can do it without selling food is a moot point.

 

[mcmeador]

Not allowing onsite sales is at this point a slim minority. Seems like worst case left is having to sell to a middleman and buy back (is that still the case in Mississippi and Alabama?) but that's not common any more either. As said, some states require food even in a taproom setting. Some breweries do the bare minimum (sometimes very deliberately, saw a "xyz state compliance menu" from a brewery, maybe Indiana, that was "$15 hot dog microwaved to perfection, no bun, $10 can of unheated soup, $20 can of condensed milk" or something to that effect)

Others have nailed it. For a brewpub to be successful it has to be a viable restaurant first. The beer is the extra.

And also demonstrates that alcohol production and sale is complicated legally. Federal, state, and local regulations to deal with.

Your ridiculous menu options reminded me of how a local bar was complying with COVID restrictions that mandated that bars require any customer purchasing alcohol to also purchase food. They offered a single 50-cent onion ring to meet the food requirement so that they could continue operating as a bar.

Related to your comment on MS, I learned from a brewery that I recently visited there that they are limited in the amount of alcohol they can sell onsite. I think only 10% of your total sales can be served onsite. They can circumvent the restriction by selling a “tasting” of several beers (basically a flight) and a “tour” of the tiny brewery. Whatever beer they serve in the tasting doesn’t get counted toward their 10% cap. If you want a pint, they’ll just ring it up as a “half-tasting” and give you 3 tastings of the same beer in one cup lol. They talk about it very openly as if the state doesn’t really care, which raises the question why these dumb laws exist in the first place.

 

[matt_m]

Man I looked up Sheridan, IN because I thought it sounded familiar. I must have remembered it since it it is the current north end of the Monon trail. I couldn't even find a grocery store in town, then found an article from 2015 about the last one closing. I can't imagine that if the demographics can't support even a small grocery that they would support a brewery.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Your ridiculous menu options reminded me of how a local bar was complying with COVID restrictions that mandated that bars require any customer purchasing alcohol to also purchase food. They offered a single 50-cent onion ring to meet the food requirement so that they could continue operating as a bar.

Related to your comment on MS, I learned from a brewery that I recently visited there that they are limited in the amount of alcohol they can sell onsite. I think only 10% of your total sales can be served onsite. They can circumvent the restriction by selling a “tasting” of several beers (basically a flight) and a “tour” of the tiny brewery. Whatever beer they serve in the tasting doesn’t get counted toward their 10% cap. If you want a pint, they’ll just ring it up as a “half-tasting” and give you 3 tastings of the same beer in one cup lol. They talk about it very openly as if the state doesn’t really care, which raises the question why these dumb laws exist in the first place.

Because the National Beer Wholesaler's Association (the lobby for distributors, ie the aforementioned middlemen) is a huge political monetary force. On par with the NRA. A lot of Prohibition-era restrictions no longer needed are the only thing keeping the distributor industry in business and they fight hard to keep that three tier system alive.

 

[mcmeador]

Because the National Beer Wholesaler's Association (the lobby for distributors, ie the aforementioned middlemen) is a huge political monetary force. On par with the NRA. A lot of Prohibition-era restrictions no longer needed are the only thing keeping the distributor industry in business and they fight hard to keep that three tier system alive.

Well the point was if the state is allowing breweries to circumvent the rules so easily, it doesn’t really make sense to have those rules at all. The rules can’t be doing much to help the big distributors if they have no real effect. I guess they’re not lobbying hard enough!

 

[NTBeer]

What are the already existing bars in the area selling? If it's just BMC, is that because that's all the market wants? Do they only offer craft in bottles because there isn't enough demand for a tap?

Food is very important. Just my example, but my wife will not set foot in a taproom without food. Your revenue just dropped from a $100 check for 2 people to $20 for one. Liquor laws will determine this, but if it's possible you also should have wine or other options for those not into beer. More options (within reason) equals fewer reasons for members of groups to say no, and thus more potential revenue.

 

[jgmillr1]

Some breweries do the bare minimum (sometimes very deliberately, saw a "xyz state compliance menu" from a brewery, maybe Indiana, that was "$15 hot dog microwaved to perfection, no bun, $10 can of unheated soup, $20 can of condensed milk" or something to that effect)

Yup, those are the rules set down by the excise police in indiana. Go figure.

Man I looked up Sheridan, IN because I thought it sounded familiar. I must have remembered it since it it is the current north end of the Monon trail. I couldn't even find a grocery store in town, then found an article from 2015 about the last one closing. I can't imagine that if the demographics can't support even a small grocery that they would support a brewery.

Yeah, Sheridan is going through a death and will be a bedroom community to westfield in the near future. We had considered a brewpub here but thought better of it for now

The town that is looking for the brewpub is Tipton, about 10 miles from here. Similar problems but better short term prospects.

 

[couchsending]

Arguably the best craft brewery in the world exists in a town of 232 people, On a dirt road, 20+ miles from the nearer stop light, with literally zero signage. People fly from all corners of the globe to go there.

Brew amazing beer and have an authentic, well executed brand and people will come from miles around.

Brew forgettable beer and create a forgettable brand and try to survive just cause you’re the only option, don’t bother.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Listen to this basic brewing podcast with Casey Latellier, who founded Ivory Bill Brewing. Links are at the bottom of this page: Basic Brewing™ : Home Brewing Beer Podcast and DVD - Basic Brewing Radio™ 2019

TLR, Casey opened the first small brewery in small town Arkansas, which doesn't yet have a strong craft beer culture. Notice his naming conventions and the type of beers he brews. How Ivory Bill is bringing along their audience along from those that think a Michelob Dark is exotic into the local brewed beer scene. In other words, know your audience. Local population around 18,000. By all reports, they are doing a good business even in the Covid era.

January 3, 2019 - Ivory Bill Brewing
We visit Ivory Bill Brewing in Siloam Springs, Arkansas, where long-time friend of the podcast, Casey Letellier, and his partner, Dorothy Hall, are serving up delicious open-fermented, gluten-reduced, English-inspired beers.

 

[kmarkstevens]

Arguably the best craft brewery in the world exists in a town of 232 people, On a dirt road, 20+ miles from the nearer stop light, with literally zero signage. People fly from all corners of the globe to go there.

Please share what craft brewery this is?

 

[couchsending]

Please share what craft brewery this is?

I think they've won best craft brewery in the world 6 of the last 7 years on Rate Beer... not hard to figure out

 

[kmarkstevens]

I think they've won best craft brewery in the world 6 of the last 7 years on Rate Beer... not hard to figure out

That was a really helpful reply. Really appreciate a cryptic reply I have to go figure out instead of a simple answer to something you know. You're the embodiment of living the homebrew spirit of helping out a fellow brewer in the Christmas season. And if it is some skank brewery in Vermont that is 3000 miles away with no distribution within 250 miles of Seattle, then ask me if I care how it is rated? Thanks for playing.

 

[VikeMan]

Arguably the best craft brewery in the world exists in a town of 232 people, On a dirt road, 20+ miles from the nearer stop light, with literally zero signage. People fly from all corners of the globe to go there.

Our homebrew club has a few pro brewers in it. At a meeting about a year ago, we were half jokingly talking about strategies to increase sales. One of the ideas was "brew beer as good as Hill Farmstead." Absolutely a great idea. But imagine that on a loan proposal/business plan.

 

[ALExanderH]

This thread and answers kinda make me laugh.. I'm from Iceland and the whole population is 356k. So for us the numbers talked about in this thread are high for us, not low and there are brewpubs all over the country here.

I helped start a small 5-10b brewpub in a really remote location almost as far from the capital as possible and the population of the town is 139 people with some similarly small towns nearby. It works because the locals are loyal and there is some tourism. Could be the lowest populated town in the world with a brewery?

 

[bobeer]

If you make a great product and get it out there for people to try they will come. Then couple it with something simple that everyone loves like a bbq pit or brick oven pizza. Been to a lot of small town breweries/brew pubs out here in Virginia and they do well if your product is good.
Location is key also. If you have a good view or a wide open space for people to hang out, and market it well, you will do fine.

 

[yoop89]

Could be the lowest populated town in the world with a brewery?

Ill see your 139 and lower you 3

Ive been here a few times since they've opened and they are doing great! Dreams can be had anywhere if you try hard enough.

https://alphamibeer.com/

 

[Broothru]

Because the National Beer Wholesaler's Association (the lobby for distributors, ie the aforementioned middlemen) is a huge political monetary force. On par with the NRA. A lot of Prohibition-era restrictions no longer needed are the only thing keeping the distributor industry in business and they fight hard to keep that three tier system alive.

You're probably familiar with the arcane laws in Maryland regarding the shipment of alcohol into and out of the state. In recent years they have gotten relaxed somewhat, over strong opposition from the distribution lobby. In the late 90s and into the 2000s I used to enter the Sam Adam's Longshot competition. In order to ship my entries to the brewery in Boston, I would drive to the FedEx facility at Dulles in Northern Virginia because it was A FELONY to ship any amount of liquor into or out of the state unless you had a distributors license.

Even our wine club deliveries came in unmarked boxes that looked like porn, though most vineyards refused to ship here. It wasn't religious conservatism like you find in the South blocking Demon Rum, but rather the liquor lobby that had a stranglehold on the House of Delegates.

Brooo Brother

 

[Qhrumphf]

You're probably familiar with the arcane laws in Maryland regarding the shipment of alcohol into and out of the state. In recent years they have gotten relaxed somewhat, over strong opposition from the distribution lobby. In the late 90s and into the 2000s I used to enter the Sam Adam's Longshot competition. In order to ship my entries to the brewery in Boston, I would drive to the FedEx facility at Dulles in Northern Virginia because it was A FELONY to ship any amount of liquor into or out of the state unless you had a distributors license.

Even our wine club deliveries came in unmarked boxes that looked like porn, though most vineyards refused to ship here. It wasn't religious conservatism like you find in the South blocking Demon Rum, but rather the liquor lobby that had a stranglehold on the House of Delegates.

Brooo Brother

Wasn't familiar with that particular one, but Maryland alcohol laws are pretty much a mess across the board. And since much is county by county it's even more maddening. I don't know about much of the state but I know MoCo is a place beer goes to die.

 

[Broothru]

Wasn't familiar with that particular one, but Maryland alcohol laws are pretty much a mess across the board. And since much is county by county it's even more maddening. I don't know about much of the state but I know MoCo is a place beer goes to die.

I really think the laws were partially responsible for Frederick Brewing Co., nee Blue Ridge Brewing and a few iterations not being able to make a go of it until Flying Dog took over the facility and moved here from Denver/Aspen.

Thankfully things have changed for the better in the last 15 years. I remember one experience with FedEx when I was attempting to ship an entry to Sam Adams. I was getting some pushback from the shipping clerk since I had disclosed on the shipping form that my incognito "cereal malt liquid sample for analysis and evaluation" contained ethanol less than 5% in solution. She got on the phone to a HAZMAT specialist in Memphis who wanted me to describe the liquid.

When I described it to him, he said, "It sounds like beer." I said, "It IS beer." He replied, no problem, they'd accept it for shipment. What a hassle. That was the last time I entered that competition.

Brooo Brother

 

[couchsending]

Our homebrew club has a few pro brewers in it. At a meeting about a year ago, we were half jokingly talking about strategies to increase sales. One of the ideas was "brew beer as good as Hill Farmstead." Absolutely a great idea. But imagine that on a loan proposal/business plan.

You ever hear Shaun Hill talk about his business plan? His plan entailed him selling 1 growler a week and just self distributing beer in kegs around northern VT. The pictures of His first brew system are awesome. He did happen to win two WBC medals before he opened the doors so that probably helped. Yes he knows how to make good beer but first and foremost he’s a branding ninja. So is JC Tetreault, Nate Lanier, Peter Bissell, and just about anyone else who’s started from nothing and become wildly successful. The brand identity is just as important as the liquid, you can’t have one without the other.

 

[50calshooter]

The town I live in (Nixa, Missouri) has a population of 22,515 (2019 census). It supports my brewpub. Full liquor, commercial made beers, and 10 or so of mine. But... and this is a big but: I am the only real bar in town. No food and no one under 21. The rest of the places are an Applebee's or something like that - non corporate sports bars, etc. That might have something to do with our success... or not. May be we just make really good beer and folks like it. We never got any studies done or consulted any pros about bars per capita. We just stuck to our business plan and work our asses off every day.

 

[SmoothBrews]

Your ridiculous menu options reminded me of how a local bar was complying with COVID restrictions that mandated that bars require any customer purchasing alcohol to also purchase food. They offered a single 50-cent onion ring to meet the food requirement so that they could continue operating as a bar.

Related to your comment on MS, I learned from a brewery that I recently visited there that they are limited in the amount of alcohol they can sell onsite. I think only 10% of your total sales can be served onsite. They can circumvent the restriction by selling a “tasting” of several beers (basically a flight) and a “tour” of the tiny brewery. Whatever beer they serve in the tasting doesn’t get counted toward their 10% cap. If you want a pint, they’ll just ring it up as a “half-tasting” and give you 3 tastings of the same beer in one cup lol. They talk about it very openly as if the state doesn’t really care, which raises the question why these dumb laws exist in the first place.

There was a bar here in SoCal that offered frozen “uncrustables”.

 

[Brewdog80]

Almost 2 year old thread. Arkansas in interesting when compared to a lot of other States. Zero food requirement for a brewpub, which is a misnomer. Should just be called a brewery or brewbar. Here in NW Arkansas, we've got a bunch, haven't counted, but over a dozen of varying size and offerings. Siloam Springs ivory bill is still operating and they do some canning, no food served. We go over there about 2 or 3 times a year. 40 mile drive one way. But closer, I guess there is only 3 I'm aware of that have hot meals to purchase. And another 6 or 7 that have food trucks parked nearby. 3 or so have no food anywhere close. And in my opinion, you need food as I just don't really want to go to a bar.... or drive to bar after eating. Only one, Core, really crashed. They opened 4 or 5 locations, and canned and wholesaled their beer but almost went bust. Beer was only fair and almost never really to style. Everything they offered was double to triple the style hops. They are down to one location, and they are the only one I won't go to or buy their beer, just crap. The end result of this is that if you can brew good beer and want to work hard, you can succeed with fairly small base. Roughly 10k people per brewpub up here.

 

[43North]

I was wondering if there is any kind of rule of thumb on the minimum population size of an area surrounding a brew pub that is considered necessary to keep the pub operating. I guess the same calculation would apply in estimating whether or not an area is saturated with breweries.

I ask because the town's economic development directory would like a brew pub to open in their main square. The town is the county seat and home to about 5000 people with another roughly 10000 in the outlying county. The area has not seen population growth in decades, however development has been moving its way. There have never been any breweries established there before. The nearest largest city is about 12 miles away with a population of 58000 in which there is one brew pub.

Any suggestions for him would be appreciated.

Alpine Wyoming, home to Melvins Brewing has a population of 800. The question isn’t how big is your town, the question is how big is your dream.