Maybe a stupid question
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Whattawort
Well-Known Member
You mean extract?
Some liquids malt extract (lme) comes as hopped liquid malt extract (hme). I'd recommend looking at the ingredients for some of the kits form Midwestsupplies You will see a kit with grains for steeping, then unhopped extract and hops listed.
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
Hopped extract should be avoided in my opinion. You have no idea what hops were used or what the IBUs are. It makes is nearly impossible to approximate a certain style. A lot of the hopped extracts tend to sit on the shelves for a while too. DME + specialty grains is the way to go if extract is your preferred method. My suggestion would be to move up to partial mash as soon as possible if all grain isn't in the budget.
ok, specialty grains with extract is what I do. you basically get them in a muslin bag (usually cause I order them from like NB, Austin or Midwest).
And hopefully a muslen bag for the hops. Ok, so you heat some water put the bag of grains in steeping it (like tea) for about 1/2 hour, then boil and put in the malt extract. After that you put in the hops. and boil (hopefuly you can do your hops like tea also). Simple.
As for LME and DME, they come in light, amber, golden and dark. In theory, you could make brews with them and hops, but usually it is grains with Malt extract
And hopefully a muslen bag for the hops. Ok, so you heat some water put the bag of grains in steeping it (like tea) for about 1/2 hour, then boil and put in the malt extract. After that you put in the hops. and boil (hopefuly you can do your hops like tea also). Simple.
As for LME and DME, they come in light, amber, golden and dark. In theory, you could make brews with them and hops, but usually it is grains with Malt extract
Whattawort
Well-Known Member
I might also add that you will want to save the bulk of your extract and add it at "flameout". This will help prevent some of the extract twang and make the beer lighter in appearance.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
There are extracts that include specialty malts - for example Briess Sparkling amber DME contains Munich and crystal 60 in addition to the base malt, their dark DME contains munich, crystal 60, and black malt. So you can certainly make different styles with just extract, the problem is you are stuck with the ratio that the maltser put together. If you instead use all light extract and steep your grains like crystal and roasted malts you have more options. You don't have to do partial mash with these types of grains. If you can make tea you can steep grains.
Well I'm making the jump to steeping grains
8lbs amber LME
1lb dark LME
1lb cara foam (LHBS out of cara pils)
1lb medium crystal 90
1lb 2 row
2/3 oz target for 60
1/2 oz fuggles for 10
1/2 oz fuggles for 5
Safale US-05 dry ale yeast
8lbs amber LME
1lb dark LME
1lb cara foam (LHBS out of cara pils)
1lb medium crystal 90
1lb 2 row
2/3 oz target for 60
1/2 oz fuggles for 10
1/2 oz fuggles for 5
Safale US-05 dry ale yeast
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
So the 2-row actually does require a mash, if just steeping leave that out or replace with light extract. Also keep in mind there is crystal (among other things) already in the amber and dark LME so you might be overshooting what you intended.
What is the real difference between steeping and mashing? Aren't they both sitting in hot but not too hot water?
Dynachrome
Well-Known Member
Oops.
What are your temps for "steeping"?
What are your temps for "steeping"?
Dynachrome
Well-Known Member
mashing is usually 150~160 in my world.
So steeping is probaly very similar.
All grain has a sparge stage too that is done with hotter temp water. 170-ish. It is basically a rinse.
So steeping is probaly very similar.
All grain has a sparge stage too that is done with hotter temp water. 170-ish. It is basically a rinse.
nelven34 said:
Yes but mashing you are converting the starches to sugars in the grain.
Steeping you are just extracting sugars that were converted by the maltster.
Most steeped grains can not be convereted from starch to sugar (which is what the mash does). A few of the steeping grains can, they tend to be the lighter ones. Grains can be malted, roasted and malted, kilned and malted and roasted, kilned and malted.... If it is just malted, then it can be converted. I think the roasting and kilning prevent them from being convertable. I dont' have my book infront of me, so I forget the exact details of why kiln v roast v both v neither. Suffice to say the more roasted or kilned the darker the steeping will be.
Follow directions with the recipe in terms of the mash and all.
Personally if this is a book recipe, I'd do some swaps. If this is a store recipe (ie they are shiping it all to you as is) then I'd not bother. The reason for swaps with a book is that LME is sold usually in 3.3lb cans, so getting 8lb means buying 9.9lb (3 cans). HOWEVER when stores assemble kits, they put in 8lb, of LME for an 8lb recipe. This recipe is a 'partial mash' because you have to mash the 2-row.
Follow directions with the recipe in terms of the mash and all.
Personally if this is a book recipe, I'd do some swaps. If this is a store recipe (ie they are shiping it all to you as is) then I'd not bother. The reason for swaps with a book is that LME is sold usually in 3.3lb cans, so getting 8lb means buying 9.9lb (3 cans). HOWEVER when stores assemble kits, they put in 8lb, of LME for an 8lb recipe. This recipe is a 'partial mash' because you have to mash the 2-row.
some really good info on this subject can be found here - http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/index.html
An all-around excellent resource BTW
An all-around excellent resource BTW
This is a store recipe, and store packaged LME. The plan it to steep all the grains and sparge into my pot adding the LME during the boil. I can post the entire recipe w/ instructions if it would help. I'm fairly confident I can follow the recipe and it should turn out good. I told the guy at the LHBS what my current set up was and he knows I'm a newbie. I hope he didn't steer me wrong
Ok. Sorry if you guys are like "why doesn't this guy get it". But the question arose from the poster being told that 2 row had to be mashed and couldn't be steeped. But I want to know why. Wouldn't the only difference be length of the time and the sparge, meaning it would be pretty inefficient.
Techincally 2 row could be steeped, and not mashed, but typically 2 rows purpose in a beer is to generate fermentable malt (and all the associated flavors). That is why we'd expect this recipe to be partial mash, and not just extract with grains.
How could it be steeped and not mashed? Well if the steep temp is to high (over 160 I think) it will bring soluables out of the 2 row, but is to high for the conversion emzynes to work ... they work in the 140 to 160 range (depending on the emzyne) The emzynes denature over 160 (ie get destroyed by the heat) so even if you get it up to 170 by the time you get it below 160, you are out of the conversion emzyne (amylase).
Since steeping usually occurs below 160 to avoid tanin extraction (both heat and ph sensetive process) this is a good temperature for the amylase to convert the 2 row also.
nelven34 did I answer that for you?
How could it be steeped and not mashed? Well if the steep temp is to high (over 160 I think) it will bring soluables out of the 2 row, but is to high for the conversion emzynes to work ... they work in the 140 to 160 range (depending on the emzyne) The emzynes denature over 160 (ie get destroyed by the heat) so even if you get it up to 170 by the time you get it below 160, you are out of the conversion emzyne (amylase).
Since steeping usually occurs below 160 to avoid tanin extraction (both heat and ph sensetive process) this is a good temperature for the amylase to convert the 2 row also.
nelven34 did I answer that for you?
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Besides better temp control you also pay more attention to water to grain ratio with mashing. You might steep a lb of grain in 3 gallons of water, but this may not get you to the correct pH for a mash and probably dilute the enzymes to the point where the efficiency suffers. To me if you're not going to pay attention to these things then don't bother with the 2 row, it's just a waste of grain.
Ok I think I have a better understanding of the difference now, but I'm not a scientific person. I'm a do this, this, and this to end up with that person.
So this is how I understand the difference. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The difference between mashing and steeping is a very slight temp difference, time in water, and the water to grain ratio?
Also, won't the malted grains in the steep help convert the starches in the non malted grain into fermentable sugars? And if not, I'll still be able to extract flavor and color from the non malted correct?
So this is how I understand the difference. Please correct me if I'm wrong. The difference between mashing and steeping is a very slight temp difference, time in water, and the water to grain ratio?
Also, won't the malted grains in the steep help convert the starches in the non malted grain into fermentable sugars? And if not, I'll still be able to extract flavor and color from the non malted correct?
I'm honestly not sure if you can do them together. I've not satisfied myself that kilned(toasted), roasted and kilned+roasted grains have no convertable sugars (ie that amylase emzyne can't change it from starch to sugars the yeast can ferment).
In terms of temp, steeping is more forgiving that mashing - I mean 'steep between 155 and 160' is usally seen, but frankly even as low as 145, or room temp an you will get extraction just at a lower rate with lower temps. With mashing it is 'do this at 148 to 152' or very close to that.
either way you should extract the color and flavors of teh steeped grains (in the mash or not). What might happen is a little less sugar and more ABV at the end of the ferment. I'd not worry about it if I had directions to follow.
In terms of temp, steeping is more forgiving that mashing - I mean 'steep between 155 and 160' is usally seen, but frankly even as low as 145, or room temp an you will get extraction just at a lower rate with lower temps. With mashing it is 'do this at 148 to 152' or very close to that.
either way you should extract the color and flavors of teh steeped grains (in the mash or not). What might happen is a little less sugar and more ABV at the end of the ferment. I'd not worry about it if I had directions to follow.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Yes, generally that is the difference in how you perform the two processes, with the additional qualification that the mash mush have some grain with diastatic power - i.e. it contains the enzymes to convert starches to fermentable sugars.
I think you are confusing the definition of malted/unmalted with diastatic power. There are malted base grains that have diastatic power like pale malt, munich malt, etc. There are also malted grains with no diastatic power like crystal malt, chocolate malt, black malt - these can all be steeped for flavor and color contribution. Then there are unmalted grains like roasted barley, flaked wheat, flaked corn that do not have diastatic power - but of these only the roasted barley will get you much color or flavor from steeping.
You might want to read through How to Brew, especially the chapters on steeping grains and how the mash works.
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