Mash with one step?

[Michael_Calgary]

Water in Calgary is a pain to brew with unless you're making a stout or porter or some such. I'd start brewing with RO and learn how to add salts back in.

OK, so If I go with RO water, I can try and build a profile for a specific beer type?

As an example, I am looking a basic water profile for the city of Pilsen. So I can use RO (or distilled) water and build a profile to mimic the water profile of Pilsen?

I do own an electric water distiller and I used it for um... cough... distilling "water" in the past. Not really sure what rate it can make distilled water at though.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

So you did a full volume mash in your cooler without a bag? How far did your efficiency drop?

Beersmith does not work very well for me when I do full volume mashes, I dont do it often enough to figure out is happening. If you use a bag your efficiency does not drop so much as you can get more wort from the grain(less lost to absorption).

For full volume no sparge without a bag the braukaiser batch sparge spreadsheet gives a closer estimate for me.
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Batch_Sparge_and_Party_Gyle_Simulator
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjI_eC4u7ncAhXNJDQIHZQOD3gQFjABegQICRAC&url=http://braukaiser.com/documents/batch_sparge_simulator.xls&usg=AOvVaw2G-aNLX45-gYFMPGRS6qEz

I dropped to the mid 60's. Well this is what beer smith tells me after I enter the corrected post boil measured SG.

 

[ba-brewer]

I would say your mash went fine and you did not have a problem. There is just sugar stuck on the grain you can not get if you dont do a sparge.

When I fly sparge I get about 75%BHE, 70% or better with a double batch sparge but when I do full volume single batch sparging I get in the mid 60s.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I would say your mash went fine and you did not have a problem. There is just sugar stuck on the grain you can not get if you dont do a sparge.

When I fly sparge I get about 75%BHE, 70% or better with a double batch sparge but when I do full volume single batch sparging I get in the mid 60s.

Hmm maybe i'll just forget all this water and pH crap and just return to batch sparge. The whole point was eliminate a step and to not have to heat water twice, but I have since found out I don't need hot water for my sparge. At the end of the day, I make beer that I really like, it tastes better than any commercial junk I can buy... and I pay a fraction of the cost to do it. I guess I should just be happy with that.

 

[ba-brewer]

The water still needs to get to boiling. Takes longer to bring the full volume to mash in temp and a cold water sparge means longer to get from mash temp to boil. If you heat only the strike water first and dough in, then heat the sparge water while mashing that can save a little time.

Take your time digging into the water stuff it can possible improve your beer.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

The water still needs to get to boiling. Takes longer to bring the full volume to mash in temp and a cold water sparge means longer to get from mash temp to boil. If you heat only the strike water first and dough in, then heat the sparge water while mashing that can save a little time.

Take your time digging into the water stuff it can possible improve your beer.

Ya I like to make pale ales and lagers... and apparently Calgary water is junk for both...

although my finished product tastes pretty good to me!

 

[schematix]

Ya I like to make pale ales and lagers... and apparently Calgary water is junk for both...

although my finished product tastes pretty good to me!

Reverse osmosis water will give you a step level improvement in your beer flavor. It's also cheap to make. A simple $100 tankless RO system will give you the best brewing water from a cost, quality, and availability perspective.

I can't speak highly enough about my switch to RO water.

 

[ba-brewer]

If your beer tastes good to you that is what matters.

My water changes seasonally and sometimes weekly so I started using RO water pretty early in my brewing for consistency. Building up water is not too difficult, start with the primer and go from there.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

Here is a link to show the efficiency differences for no sparge and multiple sparge, look at the chart in post#8
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/batch-sparging-whats-your-efficiency.648030/

 

[hawkbox]

I no sparge any time I do a 5 gallon batch and get around 72% efficiency. But I use a brew bag in my mash tun so I can lift it out and squeeze it. Bru'n water confuses the **** out of me too.

Edmonton water is surprisingly decent for brewing, so suck it Calgary! You could check with the local brew club and see what they do for additions, the EHG educational person has an edmonton pdf on her website with quick and dirty salt additions if you don't want to go crazy with it.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

so suck it Calgary!

HAHAHAHA!!! I'm not originally from Calgary, but I get the "need" for these two populations to dig at each other.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Reverse osmosis water will give you a step level improvement in your beer flavor. It's also cheap to make. A simple $100 tankless RO system will give you the best brewing water from a cost, quality, and availability perspective.

I can't speak highly enough about my switch to RO water.

I was looking at a complete RO system a while back. They are not all that expensive. The more I read about water chemistry and the fact the pH is only one small component of the mash process (and apparently NOT the most important part), the more my heads swims.. All this stuff about cations, anions, alkalinity... and omg... what day is it? I blacked out there for a sec.

I suspect with enough reading I'll probably understand enough to attempt designing a water profile for a specific beer type. As far as I am understanding now, I should be good to go with stouts or dark beer with the water as is. but ugh, you can drink so much of that....

 

[schematix]

I was looking at a complete RO system a while back. They are not all that expensive. The more I read about water chemistry and the fact the pH is only one small component of the mash process (and apparently NOT the most important part), the more my heads swims.. All this stuff about cations, anions, alkalinity... and omg... what day is it? I blacked out there for a sec.

I suspect with enough reading I'll probably understand enough to attempt designing a water profile for a specific beer type. As far as I am understanding now, I should be good to go with stouts or dark beer with the water as is. but ugh, you can drink so much of that....

I'd bite the bullet on the RO now.... even if you don't understand it all right now.

The truth is that with RO your mineral additions can become pretty damn simplistic.

Making a yellow beer...
0.5g/G CaCl2
0.3g/G NaCl
Some acid

Making an amber beer...
0.5g/G CaCl2
0.3g/G NaCl
No acid

Make a brown / blackbeer
0.5g/G CaCl2
Some baking soda - amount varies by darkness but its not much
No acid

Making an IPA?
1.6g/G CaCl2
acid or baking soda as needed based on color

Keep notes and adjust as needed.

There is some wiggle room in the above info but its meant to illustrate that when you start with a blank slate (RO water) that there's only a fraction of the stuff you need to understand because much of the complexity is due to alkalinity, and that's taken out.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

If your beer tastes good to you that is what matters.

My water changes seasonally and sometimes weekly so I started using RO water pretty early in my brewing for consistency. Building up water is not too difficult, start with the primer and go from there.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/a-brewing-water-chemistry-primer.198460/

Here is a link to show the efficiency differences for no sparge and multiple sparge, look at the chart in post#8
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/batch-sparging-whats-your-efficiency.648030/

Ok so let me see if I have this correct... From the homebrewtalk water chemistry article that says this about using RO or distilled water:

"Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%"

I'll be making a lager, So I can take 10 gallons of RO water, add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (which will satisfy the "for Soft water beers")and then add 3% of my total grain bill as acidulated malt.

Do I have this correct?

 

[TheHopfather]

Makes me wonder what the microbreweries in Calgary are doing for water? Some of those guys make really good beer.

I know the guy who owns Brauerei Fahr in Turner Valley. He's got an RO system for his water.

OK, so If I go with RO water, I can try and build a profile for a specific beer type?

As an example, I am looking a basic water profile for the city of Pilsen. So I can use RO (or distilled) water and build a profile to mimic the water profile of Pilsen?

Your better off making a water profile for a specific style of beer rather than trying to mimic a specific cities water. But yes, you just add salts back into the RO water to build up the profile you want. RO is basically a blank slate with nothing in it. You can build it up into any type of water you want. You can also buy jugs of RO water at grocery stores or Walmart, it is really cheap, like $3 a 20L jug.

Calgary water sucks due to our proximity to the Rockies. There is a lot of limestone our water travels through on the way to the city. Alkalinity is high, makes dropping the pH of the mash hard.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Making a yellow beer...
0.5g/G CaCl2
0.3g/G NaCl
Some acid

Ok CaCl2 I already have. So for sodium, what exactly am I adding? Regular salt? and the "some acid" is what? literally an acid? like food grade phosphoric acid? Or can I just use some acidulated malt?

thx

 

[TheHopfather]

When you start out adjusting your water you should get some Gypsum (CaSO4), Calcium Chloride(CaCl2) and some Lactic Acid. That'll get you started and is good for the vast majority of beers. Your homebrew shop should have all of these things on the shelf.

Once you a more comfortable and want to play around some more you can also get some Epsom Salt (MgSO4) and Canning Salt (NaCl).

I read one of your comments up above about mash pH not being the most important. That is incorrect! When adjusting your water the single most important thing you are doing is hitting a proper mash pH. Think of the rest of the salts as seasoning for cooking. You can add more or less and get different results in the final beer, but the most important thing is the mash pH.

Calcium is good for yeast health and promotes flocculation, also drops mash pH.
Chloride will increase the perception of maltiness and/or body in the beer.
Sulfate will increase the perception of hoppiness and/or dryness in the beer.
Sodium is used just like cooking, it is a flavor enhancer.

There is a lot to learn about water.

 

[schematix]

Ok CaCl2 I already have. So for sodium, what exactly am I adding? Regular salt? and the "some acid" is what? literally an acid? like food grade phosphoric acid? Or can I just use some acidulated malt?

thx

You want some sodium in there for flavor (IMO). Not a lot, but if you don't have any sodium, or chloride, it could make for a duller beer. Your sensory testing and preferences will be in play here.

I use 100% cheap and dirty table salt. If i am adding baking soda for a black beer i will either dial back or not include any table salt because it comes with a hefty dose of sodium.

As far as acid, you have options.
For german lagers i only use acidulated malt (sauermalz). If you were really hardcore you could use sauergut (don't mess with that for now!)
For my IPA i use 88% w/w lactic acid
Phosphoric is used by some but i have personally been fine with lactic. i don't need another bottle of strong chemicals laying around.

 

[ba-brewer]

Ok so let me see if I have this correct... From the homebrewtalk water chemistry article that says this about using RO or distilled water:

"Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%"

I'll be making a lager, So I can take 10 gallons of RO water, add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (which will satisfy the "for Soft water beers")and then add 3% of my total grain bill as acidulated malt.

Do I have this correct?

Yes, that looks like the recommendation from the primer.

Estimating about 3.4gm per teaspoon and 10lb of pilsner plus the saermalz brunwater gave me an estimated mash ph of 5.37
4.5gal of RO mash water with 1.6gm calcium chloride, 5.5gal of RO sparge water with 1.9gm calcium chloride.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I read one of your comments up above about mash pH not being the most important. That is incorrect!

Oh. I just read somewhere that using only mash pH as an indicator of success is not the most important thing. This was the article talking about cation, anion, total alkalinity and about 20,000 other items that made me fall asleep. I took this to mean that pH shouldn't be first thing on your mind... But i'll happily take the correction.

 

[z-bob]

Hmm all good info Jimbodaman and RM-MN. So I was thinking about food grade phosphoric acid. Although I do have a container of some chemical the HBS sold me. I want to say calcium chloride? Can't remember off the top of my head. I've also read of some sort of "add and forget" buffering addition but again, I cannot remember what it was called. But from what I remember it will just hold your ph at 5.2.

RM-MN, So about sparging with cool water. When a recipe tells me to sparge with like 168f water (which of course is higher than my mash was) what benefit does this give me? Would I be missing out on "something" by sparging with cool water?

thx guys!

Edit - oh and are you saying that I should adjust the ph of my water before it even touches the grains?

I have just started doing that; mainly because I'm not adjusting the pH of the sparge water. (it takes too much acid to acidify *all* the water) Seems to be working okay. It's also simpler than heating water twice, because my HLT is in the basement and I brew in the kitchen -- I don't like hauling scalding hot water up the stairs.

I brew 4 gallon batches. I mash with 4 gallons of dechlorinated and acidified water, then sparge with a little over 2 gallons of just dechlor'd water from the kitchen tap. Still working on smoothing out the procedure.

 

[TheHopfather]

Oh. I just read somewhere that using only mash pH as an indicator of success is not the most important thing. This was the article talking about cation, anion, total alkalinity and about 20,000 other items that made me fall asleep. I took this to mean that pH shouldn't be first thing on your mind... But i'll happily take the correction.

Follow the water primer (or download and learn Bru'N'Water), use RO water and focus on hitting your mash pH and you should see an improvement in the final beer. Water is the single largest ingredient in beer, I think we do new brewers a disservice by downplaying its importance.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Follow the water primer (or download and learn Bru'N'Water), use RO water and focus on hitting your mash pH and you should see an improvement in the final beer. Water is the single largest ingredient in beer, I think we do new brewers a disservice by downplaying its importance.

I hear ya! and thx for all the advice. and for all involved trying pull my head through this... thx.

I am going to try a batch with RO water this weekend and use this forums water primer recommendations for additions (and and some salt as per schematix). Then i'll re-calibrate my cheap pH meter (as per schematix again...) and test a sample of wort after 15 mins mash time. even though my meter is cheap, if it calibrated correctly, it should at least be in the ball park.

i'll post a follow up.

 

[RM-MN]

I have just started doing that; mainly because I'm not adjusting the pH of the sparge water. (it takes too much acid to acidify *all* the water) Seems to be working okay. It's also simpler than heating water twice, because my HLT is in the basement and I brew in the kitchen -- I don't like hauling scalding hot water up the stairs.

I brew 4 gallon batches. I mash with 4 gallons of dechlorinated and acidified water, then sparge with a little over 2 gallons of just dechlor'd water from the kitchen tap. Still working on smoothing out the procedure.

The pH of the mash is the important part. The sparge is simply rinsing the already converted sugars out of the wet grains. However, the mineral composition of the sparge water will affect the flavor of the beer. If it really takes a lot of acid to balance the pH of the water you use you may make better beer if you buy "spring water" for the mash and sparge.

 

[hawkbox]

Oh. I just read somewhere that using only mash pH as an indicator of success is not the most important thing. This was the article talking about cation, anion, total alkalinity and about 20,000 other items that made me fall asleep. I took this to mean that pH shouldn't be first thing on your mind... But i'll happily take the correction.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/07/24/wa...e-impact-of-high-mash-ph-exbeeriment-results/

The PH seems to even out on it's own in a lot of cases.

 

[schematix]

The pH of the mash is the important part. The sparge is simply rinsing the already converted sugars out of the wet grains. However, the mineral composition of the sparge water will affect the flavor of the beer. If it really takes a lot of acid to balance the pH of the water you use you may make better beer if you buy "spring water" for the mash and sparge.

Spring water does not mean low in minerals. In fact it can mean so many things it should specifically be avoided. The only water to buy for brewing should be distilled, or reverse osmosis. You *could* get away with *some* random bottled waters if they say on the label they are treated with reverse osmosis and minerals added for flavor. You need to check which minerals they add. You don't want to see any carbonates listed. I also would be wary of anything with phosphates.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

Follow the water primer (or download and learn Bru'N'Water), use RO water and focus on hitting your mash pH and you should see an improvement in the final beer. Water is the single largest ingredient in beer, I think we do new brewers a disservice by downplaying its importance.

Hmm.. ok so I donated and received the newest premium version of Bru'n water. Still not sure if I am using it right... but after I enter the needed data from my city's water report, and then the grain bill info, Bru'n water is telling me that I need more alkalinity! This does not make sense given the hardness and total alkalinity of Calgary's water.

 

[TheHopfather]

Hmm.. ok so I donated and received the newest premium version of Bru'n water. Still not sure if I am using it right... but after I enter the needed data from my city's water report, and then the grain bill info, Bru'n water is telling me that I need more alkalinity! This does not make sense given the hardness and total alkalinity of Calgary's water.

I live in the same city as you. Very few styles of beer will require more alkalinity than you've already got in Calgary water. Can you post some screen shots from the Water Report Input tab and I would assume its the Water Adjustment tab giving you the error? It could also be an error on the Grain Bill Input tab as well I suppose.

 

[hawkbox]

What I found messing around with it was the get the PH where I wanted it with Lactic I put the Alkalinity wildly out of whack.

 

[Michael_Calgary]

I live in the same city as you. Very few styles of beer will require more alkalinity than you've already got in Calgary water. Can you post some screen shots from the Water Report Input tab and I would assume its the Water Adjustment tab giving you the error? It could also be an error on the Grain Bill Input tab as well I suppose.

well what the heck... I just plugged the numbers in to the spread sheet here at work, and it tells me I need LESS mash water alkalinity!
Not sure what was happening at home last night. It's the same version of excel (2016) with macros and Iterative calculations enabled.

I didn't do anything fancy on the grain bill. I just put 8 pounds of base malt and 1 pound of crystal just to see what it says.

 

[TheHopfather]

Well the good news is, less is what you're really after. Just start adding some acid in the Water Adjustment tab to get your pH into range and you're good to go. I'd still go with RO water and salts personally. Keep in mind your water report is a snap shot in time, municipal water supplies can and do change seasonally and even day to day. But you're on the right track!