Mash temp high low conversion

[michiganflyer]

Question on Mashing --- I was targeting a mash temp of 154 but hit 160 for about 10 minutes.
Then finally got it dropped down to 154. So my question is around the time it was at 160 and dropping. If I understand correctly higher temps get more unfermentable dextrines and a higher body. But as temp drops will they continue to break down to more easily fermentable----- or once converted are those starches are done? I know at higher temp conversion goes faster.

Thanks in advance.

Ron

 

[wilserbrewer]

You’re reasoning is sound. I believe as temps drop enzymes will continue to break the longer chain sugars, unless of course the higher temps didn’t denature the enzymes.

It is a complex process that is dependent on many things, grain crush would be a major one, and also water chemistry.

Way more complicated than can be summed up in a post...

Some claim that modern malts are so enzyme rich that temperature is not as important as some believe, but rather time at temperature for the enzymes to work.

Very involved, and if even fully understood actual results may vary.

 

[RM-MN]

Question on Mashing --- I was targeting a mash temp of 154 but hit 160 for about 10 minutes.
Then finally got it dropped down to 154. So my question is around the time it was at 160 and dropping. If I understand correctly higher temps get more unfermentable dextrines and a higher body. But as temp drops will they continue to break down to more easily fermentable----- or once converted are those starches are done? I know at higher temp conversion goes faster.

Thanks in advance.

Ron

The enzymes that do the conversion denature quickly at mash temps and even more quickly as the temperature goes up. Where this breaks down somewhat is that the enzymes locked inside the grain particles don't denature at mash temps until the starch they are in becomes gelatinized at which point the conversion happens. If your grains were milled very fine, you denatured enzymes before they got all the conversion done. I've used iodine to check for starches left in the grain particles (unconverted starch) and found none left at 2 minutes but my grains are milled extra fine. Larger particles would take longer. Longer than the 10 minutes? Maybe, maybe not.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

The enzymes that do the conversion denature quickly at mash temps and even more quickly as the temperature goes up. Where this breaks down somewhat is that the enzymes locked inside the grain particles don't denature at mash temps until the starch they are in becomes gelatinized at which point the conversion happens. If your grains were milled very fine, you denatured enzymes before they got all the conversion done. I've used iodine to check for starches left in the grain particles (unconverted starch) and found none left at 2 minutes but my grains are milled extra fine. Larger particles would take longer. Longer than the 10 minutes? Maybe, maybe not.

This is amazing to me. Conversion is done after 2 minutes for tight BIAB crushes, 10 at the most...such a different belief than the past would lead you to believe.

For the sake crazy ideas would you say it would be possible to do a 15 minute mash, no boil, which has been talked about lately, and still produce the same beer as a 60/60.

That would make for around a 2 hour brew day max

 

[RM-MN]

This is amazing to me. Conversion is done after 2 minutes for tight BIAB crushes, 10 at the most...such a different belief than the past would lead you to believe.

For the sake crazy ideas would you say it would be possible to do a 15 minute mash, no boil, which has been talked about lately, and still produce the same beer as a 60/60.

That would make for around a 2 hour brew day max

Don't do it unless you like tasteless beer. It takes more than 15 minutes to extract flavors. I don't recommend less than 30 minute mash for that reason.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Don't do it unless you like tasteless beer. It takes more than 15 minutes to extract flavors. I don't recommend less than 30 minute mash for that reason.

The mash time doesnt bother me. Its the steam from the boil I'm more concerned about.

Still interesting common knowledge not to long ago was you needed a full 60 minutes for conversion, 90 for a pilsner

 

[doug293cz]

The enzymes that do the conversion denature quickly at mash temps and even more quickly as the temperature goes up. Where this breaks down somewhat is that the enzymes locked inside the grain particles don't denature at mash temps until the starch they are in becomes gelatinized at which point the conversion happens. If your grains were milled very fine, you denatured enzymes before they got all the conversion done. I've used iodine to check for starches left in the grain particles (unconverted starch) and found none left at 2 minutes but my grains are milled extra fine. Larger particles would take longer. Longer than the 10 minutes? Maybe, maybe not.

From what I have read, the enzymes are not locked in the endosperm (the starch & protein matrix that is the core of a kernel), but rather concentrated in an outer layer of the kernel. Thus they would mostly go into solution early in the mash.

From How to Brew:

Brew on

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Longer than the 10 minutes? Maybe, maybe not.

With my crush between 0.025 and 0.0375 it takes 75 minutes to extract all the starch/sugars from the grain. A HBS crush will be even more coarse (hence why brewers with these grains often get poor efficiency - they mash for 60mins like their recipe says, rather than mashing until the mash is finished). Crush will be the biggest factor in the answer to the OP's question.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Question on Mashing --- I was targeting a mash temp of 154 but hit 160 for about 10 minutes.
Then finally got it dropped down to 154. So my question is around the time it was at 160 and dropping. If I understand correctly higher temps get more unfermentable dextrines and a higher body. But as temp drops will they continue to break down to more easily fermentable----- or once converted are those starches are done? I know at higher temp conversion goes faster.

Coming in late...but I had a similar question a bit ago when doing a batch with my GF and we mashed in around 160F and stirred to drop the temps. We had some other issues with that beer (it was her first BIAB batch) so it is hard to say how the strike temp impacted the beer. If you hit your OG, then you got conversion, but I would expect a beer with fairly high FG.

At the "sweet spot" around 153F both Beta and Alpha Amylase are working to convert starches. Even at this temp, the Beta Amylase are denaturing fairly quickly, but also working faster due to the temps. Some research I saw pointed to Beta Amylase denaturing completely in about 10 minutes at 158F, so you would expect a little faster at 160F. Beta Amylase are the ones that cut small sugars from the ends of chains producing highly fermentable sugars.

The take aways that I got were to 1) try to hit your mash temp 2) if you mash in too high it is good to adjust quickly with ice or ice packs and 3) it is a little better to come in low than high (though depending on your system, it might be hard to add more heat).

 

[odie]

Sounds like it's maybe a safe bet to mash in a few degrees colder and raise the mash to your target rather to be a few degrees higher than ur target at the start?