mash ph might be too high.

[Cybershadow]

Mash ph seems a little high, what do you guys think? Not sure of the best way to adjust lower.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Yes, I would say it's a bit high. Calcium is used to lower PH, but the calculations can be pretty complex.

Specialty grains also will lower it. Base malts typically raise the pH, where choc, roasted, caramel etc. lower it.

Easiest way would be to get some 5.2 stabilizer. Can't really go wrong with that. Five star makes one.

 

[afr0byte]

Yes, I would say it's a bit high. Calcium is used to lower PH, but the calculations can be pretty complex.

Specialty grains also will lower it. Base malts typically raise the pH, where choc, roasted, caramel etc. lower it.

Easiest way would be to get some 5.2 stabilizer. Can't really go wrong with that. Five star makes one.

5.2 is crap...adds a fair amount of sodium and doesn't do what it claims pH wise...you're better off with RO and a bit of acid malt.

 

[RM-MN]

Do you really want the best way or would you settle for easy instead? I use acid blend to adjust my mash pH.

 

[JonM]

Try acid malt in your grain bill. Here's a comment from PassedPawn when I had a question about aciduated malt.

"For each 1% of your grain bill that is acidulated malt, you'll lower the mash pH 0.1%."

So, if your expected mash pH is 0.3% higher than you want it, try subbing 3% of your grist for aciduated malt.

 

[JayMac]

Try acid malt in your grain bill. Here's a comment from PassedPawn when I had a question about aciduated malt.

"For each 1% of your grain bill that is acidulated malt, you'll lower the mash pH 0.1%."

So, if your expected mash pH is 0.3% higher than you want it, try subbing 3% of your grist for aciduated malt.

Hm, this seems a little low to me... but I've never adjusted my mash pH so I'm not exactly sure how much higher 5.59 really is than 5.2

Let's try an example for the OPs scenario. To lower his mash to 5.2 from 5.59, he would need almost 70% of his grain bill to be acidulated malt.

%acidulated = (estimated mash pH - desired mash pH)/(estimated mash pH*0.001)

(5.59-5.2)/(5.59*0.001)=69.8% acidulated malt

The numerator is the amount that the pH must be dropped, and the denominator is the amount the pH is dropped per % acidulated malt added to grain bill. The 0.001 represents the 0.1% reduction in pH. We can see how crazy this is a little easier if you look at it this way: substituting 1% acidulated malt would decrease the pH by 5.59*0.001=0.00559... and the pH has to be reduced by 0.39! That's a lot of acidulated malt.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like for a difference in pH of what the OP has, this just isn't an option. Either that, or the numbers are off? (Maybe not 0.1% reduction in pH, but 0.1 reduction? or 10% reduction?).

Can someone find my error or clarify? haha

 

[afr0byte]

Hm, this seems a little low to me... but I've never adjusted my mash pH so I'm not exactly sure how much higher 5.59 really is than 5.2

Let's try an example for the OPs scenario. To lower his mash to 5.2 from 5.59, he would need almost 70% of his grain bill to be acidulated malt.

%acidulated = (estimated mash pH - desired mash pH)/(estimated mash pH*0.001)

(5.59-5.2)/(5.59*0.001)=69.8% acidulated malt

The numerator is the amount that the pH must be dropped, and the denominator is the amount the pH is dropped per % acidulated malt added to grain bill. The 0.001 represents the 0.1% reduction in pH. We can see how crazy this is a little easier if you look at it this way: substituting 1% acidulated malt would decrease the pH by 5.59*0.001=0.00559... and the pH has to be reduced by 0.39! That's a lot of acidulated malt.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like for a difference in pH of what the OP has, this just isn't an option. Either that, or the numbers are off? (Maybe not 0.1% reduction in pH, but 0.1 reduction? or 10% reduction?).

Can someone find my error or clarify? haha

Yes, it's .1 pH reduction..not %

 

[mabrungard]

Easiest way would be to get some 5.2 stabilizer. Can't really go wrong with that. Five star makes one.

Ah! Snake oil at its finest. That stuff has been proven to not do what it says it does.

Since the OP is already using a spreadsheet calculation, the simplest method of dropping the mash pH a bit is to add a liquid acid. It probably wouldn't be much. A graduated medicine dropper or syringe would enable fairly precise dosing.

 

[MaxStout]

Lactic acid solution, 88%.
Milliliters of lactic to add = pounds of grain X reduction in pH desired

 

[Cybershadow]

All good advice, I am assuming I can add the acid to the mash after I take a ph reading?

 

[JonM]

Yes, it's .1 pH reduction..not %

Whoops. That's what I meant.

 

[MaxStout]

All good advice, I am assuming I can add the acid to the mash after I take a ph reading?

Yes. Take a pH reading after dough-in, then add acid to suit. A good article on that here.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Hm... didn't realize 5.2 stabilizer was that frowned upon. A jar of it came from the guy I bought my equipment from, and I've been using it since going all-grain. pH has been right at 5.2 every time... maybe I'm just lucky and have good water then... Thanks for the advice though!

 

[mabrungard]

Interesting! How did you measure that mash pH?

 

[nolabrew85]

My question is this. Let's say I have to make adjustments to my water profile anyway to suit certain beers. Is adding stuff during mash in pursuit of proper pH going to mess up my other mineral adjustments? In other words if it's so hard to predict mash pH, I really won't know how much additive I need to add to adjust pH until the mash is going and I have already made other adjustments to the water profile. Is this something that isn't a big deal ? Should I just fix my mineral profile and then mash and then just adjust the mash pH without worrying about my mineral profile getting messed up by the mash pH additions or do I need to try to figure this out? If so, how do I do that besides trial and error with specific recipes?

 

[Hopper5000]

That is a little high but that depends on the beer you are making. Are you actually taking pH readings and if so with what? The only reliable thing is using a pH meter. Generally the strips aren't very accurate.

 

[diS]

Water adjustment is a trial and error, but good thing is that you have prediction tools/ calculators so you can play with numbers before making mistake in next batch.
I used EZwater and mabrungard's spreadsheets before, but lately I mostly use BF's web application:
http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/mywatercalcs/

When adjusting water, pH range is 1st thing you are looking for, when it reaches 5.3-5.5 take a look at mineral content and add or subtract salts keeping an eye on pH.
Adjusting water is no abstract science but you'll need some practice to do it quickly and accurately, it will come with time..

 

[Yooper]

Hm... didn't realize 5.2 stabilizer was that frowned upon. A jar of it came from the guy I bought my equipment from, and I've been using it since going all-grain. pH has been right at 5.2 every time... maybe I'm just lucky and have good water then... Thanks for the advice though!

That's really interesting. What is the mash pH without the stabilizer? This is probably the first time that I have heard of the 5.2 stabilizer bringing a mash to a pH of 5.2 (which is a bit low for a room temperature reading for most mashes). Are you using a pH meter, or pH strips?

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

I'm just measuring with pH strips (4.6-6.2 range). So I know it's not the most accurate thing in the world, but it shows pretty dang close.

I'm going to brew a batch this weekend. I'll leave out the stabilizer and let you know what I get.

So what does 5.2 stabilizer typically do? Lower the pH, right?

 

[Yooper]

I'm just measuring with pH strips (4.6-6.2 range). So I know it's not the most accurate thing in the world, but it shows pretty dang close.

I'm going to brew a batch this weekend. I'll leave out the stabilizer and let you know what I get.

So what does 5.2 stabilizer typically do? Lower the pH, right?

The strips typically read about .3 low, I believe but temperature makes a big difference as well. If they are colorfast strips, they may be somewhat accurate, but if not, they are useless.

As to what 5.2 stabilizer is, we've discussed it pretty thoroughly in the brewing science forum. Here's a start: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/5-2-ph-stabilizer-whats-436563/

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Interesting. Thanks Yooper.

I've only done 2 all-grain batches, and the first one I had some trouble with. I'm going to do a couple more as-is to get an idea of what my efficiency is (first batch was all-over the place, so I didn't bother. Missed mash temp and boil volume pretty bad. Second batch was around 68% i think)

Next step after that will be sending out a sample to Ward and getting into water chemistry. So I'm not really there yet. But I will get a pH reading when I start the mash, then I'll add it and see how it affects my pH.

 

[JayMac]

Interesting. Thanks Yooper.

I've only done 2 all-grain batches, and the first one I had some trouble with. I'm going to do a couple more as-is to get an idea of what my efficiency is (first batch was all-over the place, so I didn't bother. Missed mash temp and boil volume pretty bad. Second batch was around 68% i think)

Next step after that will be sending out a sample to Ward and getting into water chemistry. So I'm not really there yet. But I will get a pH reading when I start the mash, then I'll add it and see how it affects my pH.

You should be able to find your city's water report online

 

[cank]

It might be online but...
My city water report was online but was useless for brewing. I had to call at the state level and talk to an engineer who printed off, scanned, then emailed a detailed report of the 5 different water treatment plants in town. I then had to call the city back and find out what plant fed the water tower that supplied my house.

Even with all that I'm gonna have to send a sample in just to have some peace of mind and see what sitting in the water tower adds.

But I found out today one of the engineers at the state level is a homebrewer and I'm gonna call back Monday to get his take on things.

And, oh, everyone I spoke with was interested (paranoid) in why I was asking all these Q's and wanted me to know the water was safe to drink and asked what problem I was having with my water. One of the comments was that if the city published the complete water test results they would be flooded with calls blaming the water for everybody's health problems.

 

[BrewCrewKevin]

Couldn't find it. I sent them an email to get a report and got no response. I have read a lot of people tracking down people at the state level etc... I think it would just be easier to send it in.

 

[nolabrew85]

I keep seeing people talk about "Total Alkalinity as CaCO3" for equations for predicting mash pH, but my water report does not have any figure like that on it and it is pages long. It only has a figure for "Alk Bicarbonate". I am not sure if this is the same thing or what. Anyone know.