Morebeer's new bottom drain brew kettles

[Deadalus]

I have an electric keggle with hopstopper. Hopstopper is 2-3 years old? I have no need to recirculate during the boil. For a 6 gallon batch, anything over 50% power is plenty virgorous to where I have no need to even stir. Similar for 10 gallons, but maybe a little more power.

I also whirlpool hops for 20-30 minutes through another port not connected to my hopstopper using a Spike Flow, no problems with hazies. Temps 155-175F. Only problem Is I recently discovered it requires a shorter period for breaking down the pump for deep cleaning. I normally CIP every brew for 30 minutes at 150F. I might have been beyond my deep cleaning interval but I don't think so and the pump was gunky. Could have been I didn't use the correct amount of PBW. Spike claims the propellor chews through hops. Whole hops I'd probably still put in a spider, mostly pellets these days.

Before the hopstopper, nearly all trub went in the fermenter with a side pickup. (I would tilt the keggle at the end) With the hopstopper some trub I think settles with the hops. Really can't tell how much. Pickup tube is neary centered but floating as the hopstopper bottom is flat and the end of the pickup tube touches the hopstopper bottom.

 

[Closet Fermenter]

I only got a brief glance at the system I mentioned above with the bottom cut out rather than the top. It was used as a mash tun. IIRC, the original sanke opening connected to a pump and the plumbing housed a PID controlled heating element before returning to the mash tun. At the time, I was only doing 5 gallon batches, and everything on propane. I might would have given it a second glance these days.

 

[Deadalus]

Not much different than cooling wort down by setting a kettle in a sink with cold water, as you will need to stir the wort to speed up the heat transfer.

I don't think it is the same. You might be able let the sink run to refresh the cold water, but it wouldn't be the same as pumping tap temperature water into the jacket. Even if you could run the faucet fully open in the sink, the overflow won't circulate the same in most cases as it would in the jacket. Kettle also needs to fit in the sink too. Stirring the wort would improve both options in my opinion.

 

[Deadalus]

I only got a brief glance at the system I mentioned above with the bottom cut out rather than the top. It was used as a mash tun. IIRC, the original sanke opening connected to a pump and the plumbing housed a PID controlled heating element before returning to the mash tun. At the time, I was only doing 5 gallon batches, and everything on propane. I might would have given it a second glance these days.

I use 3 vessels, my MT was originally a keggle. I think a bottom drain under the false bottom would be an improvement. Pumping would be easier and loss to dead space would be nearly 0. I recirculated during the mash to HERMS coil. Pickup tube was centered towards the bottom of the keggle bowl bottom. That would need priming with my March pumps usually. My Blichmann will grab it if I open the bleeder valve most of the time. Once in a while maybe need to fill the tubing to prime. I have an SSBT infussion now. It bottom drains and I don't recall filling the tubing just using the bleeder valve.

My BK uses a nearly center pickup as described above for wort transfer. No priming issues it has a bleeder valve. CIP I use the side pickup which reaches a little into the bowl. The flow path of my CIP includes a CFC and the HERMS coil. Once in a while the Spike balks at that. Rinsing, I use a bucket of rinse water but also sometimes the BK. I sometimes can't get the bucket started from the floor and need to prime the tubing with water. Even sometimed putting the bucket on the table no go. And once in a great while it takes 2 or more tries. If I break the seal/suction and run the rinse water through the BK the same thing can happen. So a bottom pickup there would be useful plus it's hard to pump all the last dregs of the dirty PBW water out. Somewhat minor issue but at midnight fussing with that last rinse is extremely annoying when it happens.

If I had an opening in my brew table, I might consider soldering or welding a bottom port. My hopstopper would block it for recirculation however. The hops would form a seal around the perimeter of the hopstopper bottom, potentially even collapsing it. But without the hopstopper, I don't see a recirc problem.

I don't BIAB just to note, so very specific considerations for that I wouldn't be able to address.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

I don't think it is the same. You might be able let the sink run to refresh the cold water, but it wouldn't be the same as pumping tap temperature water into the jacket. Even if you could run the faucet fully open in the sink, the overflow won't circulate the same in most cases as it would in the jacket. Kettle also needs to fit in the sink too. Stirring the wort would improve both options in my opinion.

I meant where you still need to stir the wort to cool faster, not a game changer for me.

 

[wickedbeernut]

The boil kettle apparently has the front pickup but the HLT is using it for the temp probe. Given the TIG abilities here at the shop, I'd just weld a new ferrule in for the temp probe and repurpose the front port for a pickup if desired.

What's the concern with using the HLT bottom drain to transfer water to the mash tun (dough-in and sparge)? Same with the mash tun bottom drain. You should be able to use the mash tun bottom drain to recirculate to the mash tun (RIMS) and through the HLT (HERMS) and sparge to the boil kettle. The issue / non-issue is the boil kettle bottom drain. As we've discussed, both the Spike and BrewBuilt bottom drain boil kettles have a racking port / pickup tube on the side.

 

[Bobby_M]

What's the concern with using the HLT bottom drain to transfer water to the mash tun (dough-in and sparge)? Same with the mash tun bottom drain. You should be able to use the mash tun bottom drain to recirculate to the mash tun (RIMS) and through the HLT (HERMS) and sparge to the boil kettle. The issue / non-issue is the boil kettle bottom drain. As we've discussed, both the Spike and BrewBuilt bottom drain boil kettles have a racking port / pickup tube on the side.

There are a couple topics in the thread that I was involved in and in this case, I was specifically thinking about using one of these designs as the basis for a single vessel system. In that regard, either the HLT design or BK design would be a boil kettle at the end of the brew day.

 

[Bobby_M]

I got one of each of these delivered today. I had a few minutes to look them over.

From a build quality perspective they are 9/10. The polishing of the main seam welds as well as every other stainless surface is as good as it gets. Almost perfect. The legs are symmetrical and true and there are three braces connecting the legs (probably overkill).

HLT: Oddly enough, there is no accommodation for a HERMS coil. Certainly not a problem for units that come through my shop but I'm wondering what BB's plan is for that duty. Maybe they're working on a RIMS or something. The element and probe ports are probably a good inch, if not more, higher than I'd like if I were to turn this into an eBIAB kettle. It must really be something with the industrial punch presses that can't get down very far. Pity. I'd love to get my hands on these tanks with just the bottom drain and dress em as I see fit.

Mash: It's great as a dedicated mash tun for sure. Laser cut heavy duty FB with a perforated support ring. Look how precise the fit is between the FB and manway bottom. Completely flush for thorough grain removal. There is a port for a dedicated temp probe a couple inches above the false bottom but no sidewall recirc/sparge return. There is a TC port in the lid so a locline return is logical there. I'd put a TC in the sidewall for an Autosparge if I were building a system off this.

Boil Kettle: This one might be the most initially baffling to me without looking closer. The probe port around the back, as well as the tangential whirlpool return, is really high up off the bottom. From memory, it looks like in the 15 gallon kettle size, they are at about the 8 gallon mark which causes two issues. One, it's impractical to use the 15 as a dual 5/10 gallon batcher. Even if you commit to 10 gallon batch sizes 100% of the time, it pushes the cooling jacket way up high. A couple inches of the jacketed area will never be touching wort. Even on the high side on a "10" gallon batch, you'll have 12-13 gallons post boil and the jacket goes up to about the 15 gallon mark. I wouldn't say the jacket is useless on a 10 gallon batch, as it will remove heat from the kettle wall in general but I can't imagine it working as your only chiller. The tangential whirlpool port is a full 1.5 TC tube. The whirlpool would likely be more effective if they reduced that down to 1" or even 3/4" at the kettle connection.

Every time a new series of kettles comes out, I always wonder if the person or team that specs these things out has ever brewed before.

 

[wickedbeernut]

There are a couple topics in the thread that I was involved in and in this case, I was specifically thinking about using one of these designs as the basis for a single vessel system. In that regard, either the HLT design or BK design would be a boil kettle at the end of the brew day.

Got it! I got lost in the thread.

 

[wickedbeernut]

HLT: Oddly enough, there is no accommodation for a HERMS coil. Certainly not a problem for units that come through my shop but I'm wondering what BB's plan is for that duty. Maybe they're working on a RIMS or something. The element and probe ports are probably a good inch, if not more, higher than I'd like if I were to turn this into an eBIAB kettle. It must really be something with the industrial punch presses that can't get down very far. Pity. I'd love to get my hands on these tanks with just the bottom drain and dress em as I see fit.

My Spike Tank bottom drain HLT has HERMS ports. I cap them. My custom Spike Trio bottom drain system is a RIMS. I've been running a RIMS for almost 30 years.

Spike allows you to purchase (and optionally customize) their Tank bottom drain kettle.

Mash: It's great as a dedicated mash tun for sure. Laser cut heavy duty FB with a perforated support ring. Look how precise the fit is between the FB and manway bottom. Completely flush for thorough grain removal. There is a port for a dedicated temp probe a couple inches above the false bottom but no sidewall recirc/sparge return. There is a TC port in the lid so a locline return is logical there. I'd put a TC in the sidewall for an Autosparge if I were building a system off this.

The Spike Tank bottom drain mash tun has a sidewall recirculation / sparge port. I assume the lid tri-clamp port is for CIP. All of the BrewBuilt bottom drain kettles have a lid CIP port. Does the mash tun lid have a tri-clamp port other than the CIP port?

I need to incorporate autosparge into my Spike Tank bottom drain mash tun.

Boil Kettle: This one might be the most initially baffling to me without looking closer. The probe port around the back, as well as the tangential whirlpool return, is really high up off the bottom. From memory, it looks like in the 15 gallon kettle size, they are at about the 8 gallon mark which causes two issues. One, it's impractical to use the 15 as a dual 5/10 gallon batcher. Even if you commit to 10 gallon batch sizes 100% of the time, it pushes the cooling jacket way up high. A couple inches of the jacketed area will never be touching wort. Even on the high side on a "10" gallon batch, you'll have 12-13 gallons post boil and the jacket goes up to about the 15 gallon mark. I wouldn't say the jacket is useless on a 10 gallon batch, as it will remove heat from the kettle wall in general but I can't imagine it working as your only chiller. The tangential whirlpool port is a full 1.5 TC tube. The whirlpool would likely be more effective if they reduced that down to 1" or even 3/4" at the kettle connection.

A 1.5" tri-clamp tube is huge for a whirlpool port. The Spike Tank bottom drain boil kettle uses this on the whirlpool port,

I assume you could use an elongated version of this with the elbow cut off with the BrewBuilt boil kettle,

Every time a new series of kettles comes out, I always wonder if the person or team that specs these things out has ever brewed before.

It's hard to imagine that BrewBuilt didn't reverse-engineer the Spike Tank bottom drain kettles. Maybe BrewBuilt didn't take the time to understand how the Spike kettles are being used.

I'm anxious to hear how the cooling jacket works (or doesn't work).

Thanks for sharing!

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, 1.5" is huge to be flinging wort around in for a 5/10 gallon batch. Seems like this might lead to agitation of the wort due to the volume not totally filling the 1.5" diameter all of the time.

 

[Bobby_M]

Does the mash tun lid have a tri-clamp port other than the CIP port?

No, all three lids are standard with a single 1.5" TC port. Using it for dual use isn't off the table. You can either leave one lid with the CIP ball and swap the lids around as you CIP or one TC clamp move and you convert from a locline to a CIP ball. Either way, an autosparge doesn't work in a lid port and I wouldn't fly sparge without an autosparge. 3 vessel brewing sucks hard enough without having to play around with synchronizing flows.

I assume you could use an elongated version of this with the elbow cut off with the BrewBuilt boil kettle,

View attachment 884951​

That's assuming the whirlpool action is deficient. I also have a press-fit bushing I can jam into the tube to increase the velocity like a nozzle. That would save the extra clamp and gasket. I'll test with and without.

It's hard to imagine that BrewBuilt didn't reverse-engineer the Spike Tank bottom drain kettles. Maybe BrewBuilt didn't take the time to understand how the Spike kettles are being used.

I suppose there's only a few ways to approach a bottom drain kettle. While I'm not proposing that they built it with no influence at all, a tank on legs is pretty much the only way commercial gear is made.

 

[wickedbeernut]

Either way, an autosparge doesn't work in a lid port and I wouldn't fly sparge without an autosparge. 3 vessel brewing sucks hard enough without having to play around with synchronizing flows.

Are you assuming a mechanical float switch like the Blichmann AutoSparge?

I suppose there's only a few ways to approach a bottom drain kettle. While I'm not proposing that they built it with no influence at all, a tank on legs is pretty much the only way commercial gear is made.

How many 15G bottom drain mash tuns with a grain door and chute are there?

 

[sibelman]

strategies for getting clear wort out the kettle using the bottom drain

Your protrusion idea might work. Or, whirlpool and then dump the (pellet) trub at the beginning of transfer.

With whole hops, a false bottom would do well.

My intuition is that homebrew bottom drains are for folks who don't prioritize clear wort. But I may not be clear on the concept.

 

[Bobby_M]

Your protrusion idea might work. Or, whirlpool and then dump the (pellet) trub at the beginning of transfer.

With whole hops, a false bottom would do well.

My intuition is that homebrew bottom drains are for folks who don't prioritize clear wort. But I may not be clear on the concept.

All bottom drain boil kettles I'm aware of on the market treat the center drain for cleaning only (so they can fully drain without ever moving or tilting the kettle. They all have a lower front wall port where a rotating pickup tube can drain off the clearest wort. That's true of the Spike and the Brew Built (the subject of this thread).

 

[Bobby_M]

Are you assuming a mechanical float switch like the Blichmann AutoSparge?

Yes, when I wrote autosparge I meant the Blichmann Autosparge which is a mechanical float that meters in sparge water as wort is drained away.

How many 15G bottom drain mash tuns with a grain door and chute are there?

Now there are two.

 

[Deadalus]

Probably what @wickedbeernut was thinking of, I believe I have seen SS float valves mounted above vs the side. May have been costly though.

 

[Deadalus]

Probably what @wickedbeernut was thinking of, I believe I have seen SS float valves mounted above vs the side. May have been costly though.

Yes, lots and not the expensive ones I was thinking of. They are cylindrical, with clamps that might be configurable to adjust the height but maybe not as adjustable as the arm type used in the Autosparge which Bobby was referring to. Also most seem threaded (vs TC) but that's fixable.

 

[tke743]

I got one of each of these delivered today. I had a few minutes to look them over.

Any chance we can get measurements on these. Brewbuilt appears to be unable to provide this. Getting ready to build my new in house (retirement) brewhouse and some of these look awesome! Very interested in diameter more then anything.

 

[Bobby_M]

Welp.. I had intentions of doing a boil to pitch chilling test on the boil kettle with the oddly placed jacket but someone just walked out of the store with it (they paid for it don't worry).

Sizes?
The 20 gallons are 22 gallons to the top. They stand 28" tall without the thread in feet. Inside diameter is 17.75"
I can't measure the 15 because that was the one I just sold.

Comparison between BB and Spike bottom drainers.. pay no attention to the sizes, the BB is 20 and the Spike is 15. It's not your eyes deceiving you, Spike must have recently sourced a duller sheet. It was never as polished as the BB but definitely at least one step smoother than the current batch. The downside to the high polish is very noticeable fingerprints and easy to scratch.

 

[wickedbeernut]

Probably what @wickedbeernut was thinking of, I believe I have seen SS float valves mounted above vs the side. May have been costly though.

Actually, I was thinking of a magnetically-actuated, dry reed float switch like the Madison M8000,

I built this 30 years ago. I cut and hinged (TIG weld) the mash tun lid (from a Vollrath 15G pot). The Madison M8000 float switch is attached to the recirculation / sparge ring. The water inlet is through the lid (although it could be through the side). The recirculation / sparge ring adjusts up and down to sit just above the grain bed. The IBM 80286 PC-AT computer (seen there in the background) monitored the state of the switch and turned the pump on and off. It worked beautifully. I've seen commercial examples based on this concept (without the need for a computer).

I'd prefer to have the 9 GPM, 9.5 PSI Spike Flow pump turning on and off rather than constantly pounding on a mechanical float switch for 45 minutes. The Madison M8000 float switch creates a natural differential such that the pump isn't thrashing on and off.