This book I have suggests raising mash out temp to 167F. I never really get that done. The instructions says to get this temp throughout, but then it says to not get the temp for the wort surrounding the bag above 176F. (I suspend the bag a bit so it is not resting on the bottom.) Well, that is adding a whole bunch time to the process. Do any of you BIAG folks perform Mash out temperature raise? How do you get it done?
MASH OUT
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LittleRiver
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Mashout is something that is relevant to another brewing technique that is not BIAB.
I've never done it, and don't see a need to start doing it.
I've never done it, and don't see a need to start doing it.
The primary purpose of a mash out is to prevent the wort from becoming "too fermentable." during a long fly sparge, since enzyme action will continue thru the sparge if the enzymes are not denatured. In cases where starch conversion is incomplete at the end of the allotted mash time, a mash out can drive some additional conversion (until all the enzymes have been denatured), thus increasing mash efficiency.
Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. A mash out will not improve lauter efficiency. With BIAB, you can (should) grind your grain finer than for other processes, and this will allow conversion to complete faster than for coarser crushes (larger grit size), so a mash out should not be necessary for BIAB.
Brew on
Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. A mash out will not improve lauter efficiency. With BIAB, you can (should) grind your grain finer than for other processes, and this will allow conversion to complete faster than for coarser crushes (larger grit size), so a mash out should not be necessary for BIAB.
Brew on
I did it a few times and found that the seemingly small increase in heat from 66°C to 75°C made handling the bag too much of a PITA.
It is definitely a PITA 
I do not grind, have it done at the shop. I imagine settings vary depending on the grinder...I guess I could ask the shop owner to reset for my grind but not sure how much finer a grind should be for BIAG, or if it really needs to be. Couldn't the mash in period be extended....maybe give it quick stir about half to 3/4's a into the mash period....to increase efficiency?
I do not grind, have it done at the shop. I imagine settings vary depending on the grinder...I guess I could ask the shop owner to reset for my grind but not sure how much finer a grind should be for BIAG, or if it really needs to be. Couldn't the mash in period be extended....maybe give it quick stir about half to 3/4's a into the mash period....to increase efficiency?
The most effective way to increase efficiency is to mill the grain finer. You could mill it to nearly flour consistency for BIAB. The next best way to increase efficiency is to mash longer but there is a limit to how much that will change efficiency with a coarser grind. The stir homogenizes the mash but has limited effect on the efficiency.
If grinding finer isn't an option, you can also run the grain thru the mill a second time (double crush.) Not as effective as a finer original crush, but does help some.
And yes, extending the mash can improve conversion efficiency, if you are getting incomplete conversion with your normal mash time. You can measure/monitor conversion efficiency using the method here.
Brew on
And yes, extending the mash can improve conversion efficiency, if you are getting incomplete conversion with your normal mash time. You can measure/monitor conversion efficiency using the method here.
Brew on
Worthabrew
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Excellent point. To get the most out of my smaller Gigawort system I combine BIAB with batch sparging. After pulling the bag and sparging (draining off first runnings, resoaking grains, pulling the bag again, then recombining worts), I wait and clean things prior to starting the boil. This may take 30 minutes or so. In cases like this I figure a mash out prior to the initial bag pull will denature any remaining enzymes in either wort fraction and allow me to take my time prior to the boil so the fermentability stays as planned and the final gravity doesn't end up too low.
A mash out step is not necessary for biab brewers, but still desirable.
A 15-20 min step at 77c leads to an increased formation of glycoproteins, which increase head stability significantly.
It can easily be done by adding a calculated amount of boiling water to the mash. Brewers friend has an online tool to calculate the necessary amount of water which works well.
A 15-20 min step at 77c leads to an increased formation of glycoproteins, which increase head stability significantly.
It can easily be done by adding a calculated amount of boiling water to the mash. Brewers friend has an online tool to calculate the necessary amount of water which works well.
When I immediately bring the mash towards the boil after pulling the bag, that's a mashout. No extra step required. Mashout is mainly intended for big commercial breweries where it can take hours to transfer wort between vessels then get up to a boil.
No, glycoproteins form when the grain is present, not when only the wort is heated. Or let's say, not at the same extent.
Maybe holding the liquid for twenty minutes at 77c would also work? Don't know about that.
I'll take your word for it. But personally I don't care about glycoproteins. I have no problems with head retention in any of my beers.
I thought the same, but after I've been to Slovakia and after I've seen what crazy head they had on their pilsener (no wheat involved, but looked like it), I wanted to improve my beer. And this step really did something to it.
If/when my Kolsch is carbonated (I was thinking of popping the first bottle tonight or tomorrow), I'll post a picture at first pour and again 5 minutes later.
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I used to use a mash out on occasion if I felt I needed a few more pre boil points. But as I have understood my process better (and have thereby become a better brewer) I rarely if ever do it anymore.
What is the mechanism for the formation of glycoproteins, and what role does the grain play in this mechanism?
Brew on
Bigarcherynut
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It is definitely a PITA
I do not grind, have it done at the shop. I imagine settings vary depending on the grinder...I guess I could ask the shop owner to reset for my grind but not sure how much finer a grind should be for BIAG, or if it really needs to be. Couldn't the mash in period be extended....maybe give it quick stir about half to 3/4's a into the mash period....to increase efficiency?
I'm retired and while watching the snow fall here in Wisconsin have been reading posts some on mash out. I don't because what I've read over the past few years.
I posted sometime back about my efficiencies dropping when doing 10 gallon batches or high OG batches. The guys posting on your thread helped me with possible reasons. What I found was when the LHBS I used closed, is when I saw the drop. They would set their mill finer for me and I would double mill my grains. For the last year I have been using a different LHBS. I asked them about the setting and they stated it's set to a credit card which I calculated to about .375. They don't adjust it differently. Even with a double pass I could see the difference and it was not as fine as the old store. I got a Mill for Christmas and what a difference. Before that I increased my mash time to 90 minutes and it helped. Now by milling at .025 my grains are very fine with a good amount of flower. My Brew House and Mash efficiencies went from 66.3%/69.6 to 80%/84% for the same recipe. I even had another recipe with improve efficiencies and hit my OG with 2 pounds less base malt. Can't say enough for the guys and girls on this forum. They are great at helping. If you cant get your local shop to change the mill setting spend the money and get a mill. I bought one on Amazon and did not break the bank and it works great.
Happy Brewing!!
Bigarcherynut
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The primary purpose of a mash out is to prevent the wort from becoming "too fermentable." during a long fly sparge, since enzyme action will continue thru the sparge if the enzymes are not denatured. In cases where starch conversion is incomplete at the end of the allotted mash time, a mash out can drive some additional conversion (until all the enzymes have been denatured), thus increasing mash efficiency.
Mash efficiency equals conversion efficiency times lauter efficiency. A mash out will not improve lauter efficiency. With BIAB, you can (should) grind your grain finer than for other processes, and this will allow conversion to complete faster than for coarser crushes (larger grit size), so a mash out should not be necessary for BIAB.
Brew on
Doug and anyone else,
A while back you helped me with a drop in my efficiencies and the longer mash time you mentioned helped but buying a mill and getting the finer crush was huge. See my previous post here.
Question I have about mash out is this. I don't do one from what I read back when first getting into BIAB. Just reading threads today and my question is, When I raise my bag and start letting it drain, I put two boards over my bag and use squeeze clamps to get everything out I can. I don't turn the heat on until I'm done so my wort sits for maybe 30 minutes during the process. Is that bad? Should I be turning the heat on to get to a boil soon after the bag comes out? Does resting at near mash out temps hurt the wort?
Thanks.
A while back you helped me with a drop in my efficiencies and the longer mash time you mentioned helped but buying a mill and getting the finer crush was huge. See my previous post here.
Question I have about mash out is this. I don't do one from what I read back when first getting into BIAB. Just reading threads today and my question is, When I raise my bag and start letting it drain, I put two boards over my bag and use squeeze clamps to get everything out I can. I don't turn the heat on until I'm done so my wort sits for maybe 30 minutes during the process. Is that bad? Should I be turning the heat on to get to a boil soon after the bag comes out? Does resting at near mash out temps hurt the wort?
Thanks.
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She's an easy quaffer, she'll get a hold on you, believe it.
At first pour:
Then after 5 minutes:
Then after 10 minutes:
Admittedly this is too dark and hazy yet to be a good Kolsch, but it's light in flavor and pretty close to style otherwise. It's now 30 minutes later and there's still a head on it, with lasting lace around the glass. Aw heck, here:
It doesn't really hurt anything. Just makes brew day take 30 minutes longer than it needs to be. I like to keep brew day short, but some people don't care. The longer time at mash temp could result in higher efficiency and higher fermentability, in theory. But in reality you might find it doesn't make much difference even in those respects either. So it's really up to you. You can experiment with it if you like and see what you prefer.
McKnuckle
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We all do things differently, and it all works, so we all think we're right. And indeed we are! But it really does pay an empirical dividend to simply try different techniques and judge for yourself.
When I brew in a bag, I never squeeze. I do a long gravity drain. I only want wort in my kettle, not grain particles. I know there are particles because I've done a squeeze before over a fine filter (75 microns). Does it literally produce worse beer? I can't prove that it does, but I've opted against this technique as a result.
Mash out... when I brew with the Braumeister, which has multiple programmable mash steps, I always do one. I am often experimenting with mash rests (time and temp) in order to manipulate attenuation and ABV, so I want to put a certain end to conversion. I spend 10 minutes at 170F, and have seen it give me slightly higher efficiency. Finally, it's traditionally practiced at German lager breweries, which I seek to emulate in my humble way, so I do it.
If you don't have a convenient way to raise and hold a temp in your mash tun, then I see the reasoning behind skipping mash out and claiming it's not necessary (and it's not). But that doesn't make it pointless, either.
When I brew in a bag, I never squeeze. I do a long gravity drain. I only want wort in my kettle, not grain particles. I know there are particles because I've done a squeeze before over a fine filter (75 microns). Does it literally produce worse beer? I can't prove that it does, but I've opted against this technique as a result.
Mash out... when I brew with the Braumeister, which has multiple programmable mash steps, I always do one. I am often experimenting with mash rests (time and temp) in order to manipulate attenuation and ABV, so I want to put a certain end to conversion. I spend 10 minutes at 170F, and have seen it give me slightly higher efficiency. Finally, it's traditionally practiced at German lager breweries, which I seek to emulate in my humble way, so I do it.
If you don't have a convenient way to raise and hold a temp in your mash tun, then I see the reasoning behind skipping mash out and claiming it's not necessary (and it's not). But that doesn't make it pointless, either.
Bigarcherynut
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I agree with you on everyone does things different. Isn't that what it's all about. We would never learn new ways if we didn't try different things/techniques.
As for squeezing, I read years back when I started BIAB it's best to squeeze like it owes you. Is that right or the best way, maybe, maybe not but I set my program for it. I recently started brewing cream ales and some have been a little more cloudy than others. Is it from squeezing the bag? I'll know if I don't squeeze my next batch and see an improvement. Maybe I'll go to gravity draining and just adjust my absorption numbers if needed.
For mashing out, I didn't because the most of the reading I did said it wasn't needed. My homemade E-kettle is set up with a false bottom so I can easily turn on the heat without any damage to my bag. When my efficiencies dropped I second guessed my decision not to and that's what got me to this thread. Next batch I'll try it because I don't care about a few minutes extra.
Thanks for your thoughts!!
I'm not sure, I guess the grain provides something that is important for this reaction. There are studies about this subject, but I haven't read them. I just used the final conclusions and it worked.What is the mechanism for the formation of glycoproteins, and what role does the grain play in this mechanism?
Brew on
It might be that only holding the liquid at the appropriate temperature for twenty minutes also does it, but according to my sources, the grains play a role in this.... But don't ask me where to find those sources. It was some time ago, but they seemed legit at that point and it worked during my trials.
What was the og and fg?She's an easy quaffer, she'll get a hold on you, believe it.
At first pour:
Then after 5 minutes:
Then after 10 minutes:
Admittedly this is too dark and hazy yet to be a good Kolsch, but it's light in flavor and pretty close to style otherwise. It's now 30 minutes later and there's still a head on it, with lasting lace around the glass. Aw heck, here:
Just to give an idea about what I'm comparing it to, a dry 4% abv Pilsener with a head almost like a hefeweizen, but not overly carbonated. I was amazed, especially given the lower og.
Yours looks good, but still not as good as the one I am comparing it to. Unfortunately I didn't make pictures....
Only been in the bottle 9 days, so likely not even fully carbonated yet. OG 1.052, FG 1.010
LostHopper
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Good info. I've become a master bag squeezer and I may just punt the squeezing on the next batch.
No mashout here.
As my brewing method has matured I've found that I've eliminated stuff that wasn't making a difference in the beer. Mashout was eliminated very early.
How many of you all do set the grind finer for BIAG? Kind of a survey I guess, I have yet to ask the shop to change their settings just for me, but if it really makes a difference (and it is sounding like it does) i may have to explore that route.
No not necessary. At least if you sparge as I do, not necessary.
Bigarcherynut
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As I posted earlier in your thread I do mill finer than what my LHBS mills at,
for the reasons mentioned. In the picture, the pile on the left was milled at my LHBS at what they say is a credit card setting. The pile of grains on the right were milled with my new mill at .025. I know mill my grain at about .05 then mill at. 025 just once. My efficiencies have gone up substantially. I brew BIAB for the ease of it so I don't sparge and where I'm at in my last 4 batches since milling finer, don't see why I would.
Wow, that "crush" on the left is just about the worst "crush" I have ever seen in my life!!! On the right is pretty far on the opposite end of the spectrum, I might even say too much but if it works for you and you like it, go for it.
Bigarcherynut
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I even asked the LHBS if they would set it finer but wouldn't. I even double milled the grain but still not fine enough for my system. My daughter bought me the mill for Christmas and really took my brewing to a new level. My milled grains even have some flour appearance to it.
fendersrule
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THe crush on the right is perfect for BIAB.
My crushes look similar.
Mash-Out is not worth it for BIAB. Crush it fine, and mash for 90 minutes. Get 80-85% efficiency. Call it a day.
My crushes look similar.
Mash-Out is not worth it for BIAB. Crush it fine, and mash for 90 minutes. Get 80-85% efficiency. Call it a day.
naw, about how i crush for a bazooka tube cooler, but i have more whole husks in mine....
Bigarcherynut
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After posting a thread back before I got my mill, I was looking for help with my low efficiency numbers. It came back to possibly poor milling and the need to mash longer. I got the mill and between a finer crush and the longer mash time my numbers went from 63% to 80% and my batch brewed Wednesday was 89% BH and 94% mash eff. I like it FINE!!
rmchair
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My personal definition of mashout is taking my potato masher and squeezing it down against the suspended bag and basket like I am in a '50s dance marathon. I might also be singing Monster Mash or You can do the Twist in my head. Being that 169 will burn my arms, I hit it about 158 which is what my temp raises to while I gear up.
LittleRiver
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Here's what I do:
My BH efficiency runs in the low 80's. I consistently hit or exceed recipe targets without sparging or adding additional grain. The beer is excellent, both in taste and appearance. Those who say it won't be clear due to the fine crush don't know what they're talking about.
- crush once at .025"
- full volume mash (1hr, in a Wilser bag)
- no sparge
- no squeeze (gravity fully drains the bag into the kettle during the 1hr boil)
- no mashout
- no recirculation (kettle is insulated during the mash, temps hold within 1-2 degrees)
My BH efficiency runs in the low 80's. I consistently hit or exceed recipe targets without sparging or adding additional grain. The beer is excellent, both in taste and appearance. Those who say it won't be clear due to the fine crush don't know what they're talking about.
rmchair
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I like it. How do you suspend bag?
I always do a double batch, so I have taken to sparging just for a 3rd small batch purposes while I'm standing around.Quite often this mixed third beer comes out great.
fendersrule
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Exactly my mill setting.
I mash for 90 minutes now, every time.
I went from .027 to .025, and I changed my mash from 60 minutes to 90 minutes, and I went from 70% efficiency to 80-85% with a heavy white wheat grain bill, and 5-8% more efficiency for a regular no-wheat grain bill. I'm fully convinced that .025" + 90 minute mashes are the sweet spot for high efficiency.
Just wanted to correct that gravity does NOT fully drain the bag during the boil hour for me. There seems to be a half gallon still trapped in there during the first half of the boil if you don't squeeze.
If you have your water volume down, you don't need to squeeze, but I set my water volume based on squeezing that last 1/2 gallon out.
I don't squeeze right away. I RHAHB, and start squeezing during the first part of the boil (which isn't much at that point, still about a half gallon) and get the bag out of the damn way for the rest of it.
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LittleRiver
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I put an eye screw in a rafter overhead, and attached a rope/pulley arrangement to it. The top pulley is just a simple pulley for redirection. On the bottom is a ratchet pulley, which has a mechanism that automatically keeps the bag from falling (unless you hold down the little lever on the pulley). You want to place the ratcheting pulley on the bottom, so you can always reach it.
You can get the rope/pulley kit from Wilser (what I did when I bought my bag, his prices were better than buying the rope & pulleys off Amazon, or locally). The pulley arrangement gives you a theoretical 2x mechanical advantage (closer to 1.75x accounting for friction), which means the bag is easy to lift by pulling down on the rope with one hand.
I get a secondary use out of the hoisting rig. I grind my grains into a bucket, then attach the bucket handle to the pulley. The rope holds the weight of the bucket, making it easy to slowly tip the bucket with one hand, while I stir in the grains with a whisk in the other hand.
