MASH OUT

[fendersrule]

Exactly what I do. I made a couple 3-vessel brewers question why they went that way with such a simple and cheap setup. BIAB is awesome.

 

[LittleRiver]

...I went from .027 to .025, and I changed my mash from 60 minutes to 90 ... I'm fully convinced that .025" + 90 minute mashes are the sweet spot for high efficiency....

Sounds like you've got a good process that is working well for you.

I haven't tried a 90min mash, and to be honest, I won't. I'm consistently hitting or exceeding recipe targets with a 60min mash, without sparging. I experimented with a 45min mash and didn't notice any drop in efficiency, so it would make no sense for me to add time.

... gravity does NOT fully drain the bag during the boil hour for me. There seems to be a half gallon still trapped in there during the first half of the boil if you don't squeeze....

I've done two experiments with this, both using a Wilser bag. The first was with a simple grain bill, base grains plus small amounts of a couple of specialty roasts. After letting the bag gravity drain into the kettle for a one hour boil, I put the bag in a bucket and hand squeezed everything I could out of it (rolling the bag tight, and pushing hard against the side of the bucket). I got about one cup.

The second experiment was an oatmeal stout, which had a pound of flaked oats (I figured the oats might make make the bag drain slower, thus holding more liquid). After a one hour gravity drain, I squeezed about 1.5 cups out of the bag.

That's the last time I'll ever squeeze a bag.

For folks that can't rig an overhead hoist point, or some other way of letting gravity fully drain the bag, I can see how squeezing is a good way of extracting wort from the bag. But even then I question the efficacy of putting in the repeated effort to squeeze the bag every brew session. Seems to me like a one time effort to rig a gravity drain is a smarter way to go, if it's possible.

...I don't squeeze right away. I RHAHB, and start squeezing during the first part of the boil (which isn't much at that point, still about a half gallon) and get the bag out of the damn way for the rest of it.

What is it you find the bag in the way of during the boil?

I have no need to move the bag until it's time to put in my immersion chiller. By that time gravity has fully drained it. There is a small amount of wort left in the bag, but that last little bit is not worth the sticky mess of squeezing out, not to mention the additional work of cleaning up whatever things are used to squeeze with.

 

[fendersrule]

My results differ. I let the bag hang for the fire up + halfway into the boil. At that point I squeeze an easy a half gallon for a 5G batch. For a double, or triple batch there will be a lot more. In fact, a linear amount. More grains = more storage. Physics doesn’t agree that if I left it alone for the last half hour that all of a sudden I’d get different results. I’ve left it alone till the end before and there was still more liquid than I would have liked stored.

the sticky, whiny complaining about squeezing is sleep inducing in 2020. You wear $5 wet gloves for the 45 second squeeze. There is no additional cleaning or stickiness.

if you got a method down, which for me would require a higher water volume if I didnt squeeze, then roll with it. I claim it helps water volume which directly effects brew house measurements. More than a cup—That’s just not true. You lose a half gallon regardless if you DONT squeeze from the grain alone for a 5G batch. Not squeezing is losing 1G for a fine crush.

Leaving the bag hanging last 15 minutes isn’t 100% sanitary (but close enough). I’d rather not let a bag that has been suspended in air with wild yeast drip during the last 15 minutes.

Keep in mind YOUR results may differ if using a coarse crush where drainage could be faster....

Recipe targets are RATED on a specific efficiency, even if they don’t list it. Just because you meet a recipe target means nothing. Go follow a 85% target and see if you meet it, and most importantly, consistantly, with the exact same water volume output...

I can...because I have my system down exactly. If the grain uses heavy malted wheat then I’m an easy 85%. A standard beer with no wheat I’m 75% minimum. Mash temps may raise a few percentage. I could have my system down if I didn’t squeeze too. Just add another half gallon of pre boil and bump the efficiency down a couple %.

knowing your system and knowing what OG you’ll make is most important, regardless of your method. We’ll agree on that! Consistency is key.

regarding mash time, it’s been very widely reported that 90 minutes COULD pick up additional % points over 60 minutes. I can link you to a thread if you’re interested. An extra 30 minutes effects my brew day 0%. I could probably finish yard work completely by then. I hope no one is actually sitting and watching their mash take place. LOL

 

[LittleRiver]

@fendersrule I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or something like that, because that's genuinely not where I'm not coming from. We both have our methods, and they're both working, so both are good. Neither is "better" than the other. This is a hobby, if we're both having fun we're both doing it right. I raise my glass to you, my brother in brewing. Cheers!

My results differ. I let the bag hang for the fire up + halfway into the boil. At that point I squeeze...

I am curious as to why you are only letting the bag drain for half the boil. If gravity is working to drain it during the first half, why not let it continue to work for the second half?

...You loose a half gallon regardless if you DONT squeeze from the grain alone for a 5G batch. Not squeezing is losing 1G...

That has to be based on the assumption that the bag is not allowed to fully drain by gravity. A bag for a 5gal batch that has been gravity drained for one hour does NOT contain anywhere near a half gallon of liquid, much less one full gallon.

...Keep in mind YOUR results may differ if using a coarse crush where drainage could be faster....

In this post you say that we are using the exact same mill gap (.025"). I use a three roller mill, which might provide a slightly different crush than if you are using a two roller mill (I am highly skeptical any difference could be significant).

...Recipe targets are RATED on a specific efficiency, even if they don’t list it. Just because you meet a recipe target means nothing....

It's true that they are based on some specific efficiency. The majority of recipes I've found are based on traditional (non-BIAB) methods and rigs. I disagree with you that hitting a recipe target means nothing.

Being able to hit a target signifies proficiency. Being able to hit a target with a process and rig that are simpler than used by the originator of the recipe signifies an advancement in the craft.

 

[fendersrule]

Yep, we're totally discussing minute stuff here. No argument or anything bad like that.

After heat up + 30 minutes of boil, that's about 50 minutes right there. If I don't touch the bag at all, it will hardly drip anything by around this time. But guess what, as soon as I touch it, I can squeeze an easy half gallon out! I know that because my Kettle is marked. I find that it's more than a "cup" (12 ounces).

I mean by "following a recipe means nothing" as in, following a recipe without adding it in brew software to account for your efficiency means nothing! I rebuild all receipes that I find online in brewgr so that I can account for my efficiency. If you're able to do that, and nail the OG by within 1 or 2 points, you're doing it right. I'm able to do this. I've mentioned that the only time I get different results is when I'm using malted wheat (or maize), which appears to have more PPG. I'm able to account for that though, so all good.

There will always be a debate between squeezers and non-squeezers. Hopefully that you see my opinion is pretty balanced on this topic. I let it drain until it literally hardly drips anymore (which is about 30-45 minutes) and then I squeeze it with wet/heat gloves and gain about a half gallon. It's hardly any effort or additional cleaning at all. The time I didn't squeeze was when I came up about a 1/2 gallon short. I'm all for letting the bag do it's thing. I disagree with people that squeeze the bag right away. Waste of effort and time.

Going back to the topic of the thread, I recommend trying a 90 minute mash time and a .025" crush. I've noticed that with that combination, I am able to reach 75-85% BH efficiency depending on grist and mash temp. There is actually a thread on a different BIAB forum where people post their results with 60 vs 90 minute mashes, and mash-in vs mash-out, and crush level. It's no surprise that many people find either a 3%-8% gain in efficiency by playing around with the mash times and crush levels. YMMV.

 

[LittleRiver]

Yep, we're totally discussing minute stuff here...

Absolutely. Too bad we can't do it around a campfire drinking our brews. Discussion forums always seem to lead to misunderstandings. Face to face conversations are so much better.

After heat up + 30 minutes of boil, that's about 50 minutes right there. If I don't touch the bag at all, it will hardly drip anything by around this time. But guess what, as soon as I touch it, I can squeeze an easy half gallon out! I know that because my Kettle is marked. I find that it's more than a "cup" (12 ounces).

All I can say is that my experience is different than yours.

As soon as I raise the bag I fire the heat for the boil, and let the bag drain into the kettle for the entire boil (which includes the ramp up time). So the total time I let the bag drain is ~70 minutes(?).

As I said earlier, I measured how much I could squeeze out of my bag after that time, and it was about one cup (~1.5 cups if a pound of oatmeal was in the recipe). Even with a hydraulic press I don't know that I could squeeze out a half gallon.

I mean by "following a recipe means nothing" as in, following a recipe without adding it in brew software to account for your efficiency means nothing!

I do verify my recipes (both those I find and those I create) with brewing software, using 82% efficiency as my target. My measured actual efficiency hits or slightly exceeds that target.

There will always be a debate between squeezers and non-squeezers.

If there weren't debates, we wouldn't have discussion forums to waste our time on!

... I squeeze it with wet/heat gloves and gain about a half gallon. It's hardly any effort or additional cleaning at all. The time I didn't squeeze was when I came up about a 1/2 gallon short. I'm all for letting the bag do it's thing. I disagree with people that squeeze the bag right away. Waste of effort and time.

I do have a pair of insulated waterproof gloves, and I have tried squeezing with them. As we've already discussed, my finding was that squeezing a fully drained bag is not worth the small amount of wort I could recover.

I keep the gloves around, but I don't have to wash them, because there's never a need to touch a hot sticky bag with them.

Going back to the topic of the thread, I recommend trying a 90 minute mash time and a .025" crush. I've noticed that with that combination, I am able to reach 75-85% BH efficiency depending on grist and mash temp....

Our results differ. I'm able to consistently get low 80's BH efficiency with a .025" crush and a 45-60min mash. That's without sparging, and without squeezing. I'll stick to the simpler process that takes less time.

 

[fendersrule]

Every setup, brew-bag, crush, temp, humidity, stir-in procedure, grain source, etc is different. Definitely experiment to find out what works best for you. In my experience (and many others have noted this as well), a longer mash seems to gain some efficiency. Sometimes it's a little, but sometimes it's a nice enough bump to implement. Experiment.

Even down to the crush could be different. Do you know you're at .025" by what it says on your mill (which is inaccurate) or have you tested with a feeler gauge across all rollers?

The only true experiment to test a 45 min vs a 90 min mash is the same exact grain bill and crush.

I wish I can find the thread from BIABrewer. It was very interesting. Nearly a hundred people experimented with 60 min vs 90 min, and mash in vs mash out.

I found that going from .027" to .025" (feeler method) gained me 2-3% in efficiency, and it didn't seem my mill was working too hard, but I don't feel comfortable going any finer. This put me at a guaranteed 73% efficiency for pretty much everything basic (non-malted wheat or maize) even including "big beer" (which I was shocked).

Now that I do 90 minute mashes (honestly, it doesn't add to the brew day as there are things you can do related to clean-up which puts the "brew day" total still at the same time), I've noticed I can get well into the 80s for efficiency (if using malted wheat or maize). My absolute lowest efficiency is 75% now. My highest has been 85%.

This all started from 69% w/ 60 minute mashes and .027" on my Cereal Killer. Why? Because I experimented. I know from experimentation that going from .027" to .025" gains 2-3% (at best). The rest of my gains is coming from somewhere...

Best of all, I’m not working any harder.

Cheers!

 

[Yorkshire lad]

Never thought to use the hoist to hold a bucket of grain and pour.
Have been using a plastic jug to scoop the crushed grain from a kettle.
Thanks for the tip LittleRiver.
Happy brewing.

 

[LittleRiver]

Never thought to use the hoist to hold a bucket of grain and pour....Thanks for the tip...

You're welcome. I've never had a dough ball doing a slow pour while stirring with a whisk.

Here's the mount I made for for grinding directly into the bucket. It minimizes airborne dust. The reason for the long legs is so they extend far enough into the bucket to keep the weight of a heavy drill attached to the mill from leveraging the top off the bucket. It has to be lifted vertically to come off.



I've never used the crank handle, but I mounted the mill off centered so it could be used.

 

[Yorkshire lad]

Another briliant idea LittleRiver !
I'm going to make a modification to my grain Mill.
BTW, my last brew-day began with a disaster:
While being distracted by the dogs, I let the mill tip over and ended up with 5 Lbs of grain on the kitchen floor !

Live and learn.

 

[wilserbrewer]

@LittleRiver
That is a nice mill mount, should survive all but the worst trip and falls during milling...and keep the mill where it belongs...