Margarita Gose

[TravelingLight]

Hey Morrey,

Sorry maybe I'm confused. Your original post said 2 oak cubes in 1 cup of tequila. Was it supposed to read 2 oz of cubes not 2 cubes?

FWIW, I asked Morrey about this since cubes come in so many different sizes. The cubesI am currently using are only about a half inch square. Morrey told me to try about 1/3 cup of cubes. So that's what I did.

 

[Morrey]

FWIW, I asked Morrey about this since cubes come in so many different sizes. The cubesI am currently using are only about a half inch square. Morrey told me to try about 1/3 cup of cubes. So that's what I did.

Yeah, this is one of those judgement calls since there are so many styles and types of wood products available. I have chips, cubes, chunks, spirals and they all vary in size and weight.

Hey Morrey,

Sorry maybe I'm confused. Your original post said 2 oak cubes in 1 cup of tequila. Was it supposed to read 2 oz of cubes not 2 cubes?

The cubes I used were pretty big and I guess you could actually call them chunks. I hope this didn't cause you problems. If you'll do a taste sample to monitor your oaking progress, you can pull the oak at any time you feel you have enough flavor.

Smaller cubes will likely have more surface area than the same weight of larger cubes so the small ones will probably infuse the tequila faster. Monitor daily and get the oak out when you determine you have enough.

 

[Sillybilly]

What is the reason for doing two separate tinctures? Better extraction of flavor?

 

[Izzie1701]

Yeah, this is one of those judgement calls since there are so many styles and types of wood products available. I have chips, cubes, chunks, spirals and they all vary in size and weight.







The cubes I used were pretty big and I guess you could actually call them chunks. I hope this didn't cause you problems. If you'll do a taste sample to monitor your oaking progress, you can pull the oak at any time you feel you have enough flavor.



Smaller cubes will likely have more surface area than the same weight of larger cubes so the small ones will probably infuse the tequila faster. Monitor daily and get the oak out when you determine you have enough.

I'm just going to start with 1oz of cubes in 1 cup for now. Rather be under then over. I'll add the tincture to taste then if I don't add the full 1 cup of tequila in the tincture will top up with straight tequila. Should work out.

 

[Izzie1701]

What is the reason for doing two separate tinctures? Better extraction of flavor?

I havnt Oaked this recipe but when I do rum in a stout I'll often keep my tinctures separate for a couple reasons.

1.) after making a tincture you now have run infused oak. Less oak flavor but will still add a subtle flavor so you can get 2 uses from the cubes. Wouldn't go past 2 batches though as all the flavor will be gone and for the second one just toss the cubes into the secondary not make another tincture. Like I said though a lot less oak flavor.

2.) you can blend more easily. Often you can get to oaky of a tincture and not want it all in there but not have enough say vanilla in another tincture so want to use the whole tincture. If you do them all together you'll either have to much oak or to much vanilla. I would guess that's why morrey did the lime and oak separate.

 

[Morrey]

What is the reason for doing two separate tinctures? Better extraction of flavor?

Izzie has provided the precise answer. During my testing period, I wanted to evaluate the impact each infusion was bringing to the table. Doing them separately was my best test.

I havnt Oaked this recipe but when I do rum in a stout I'll often keep my tinctures separate for a couple reasons.

1.) after making a tincture you now have run infused oak. Less oak flavor but will still add a subtle flavor so you can get 2 uses from the cubes. Wouldn't go past 2 batches though as all the flavor will be gone and for the second one just toss the cubes into the secondary not make another tincture. Like I said though a lot less oak flavor.

2.) you can blend more easily. Often you can get to oaky of a tincture and not want it all in there but not have enough say vanilla in another tincture so want to use the whole tincture. If you do them all together you'll either have to much oak or to much vanilla. I would guess that's why morrey did the lime and oak separate.

Good answers! I will save my oak and use again at least a couple of times. If I am doing a barrel aged Porter, I would not want a lime zest flavor involved. After a couple of infusions and the oak sorta gives up its infusion ability, I will pitch the oak direct in something or other and give it one last go. I am doing a few barrel aged beers so I always find a use for the spent oak.

Blending to your individual taste is the best approach so this two tincture method makes it easier (for me) to blend to my preference.

 

[Sillybilly]

That is a really good point, thanks for the answers! I plan to kettle sour a 6 gallon batch and do half as a "clean" berliner and the other half as a margarita gose.

Do you use hops to help accentuate flavors? I was thinking of using Citra or Motueka after its soured.

 

[Morrey]

That is a really good point, thanks for the answers! I plan to kettle sour a 6 gallon batch and do half as a "clean" berliner and the other half as a margarita gose.

Do you use hops to help accentuate flavors? I was thinking of using Citra or Motueka after its soured.

Good point to consider hop additions after your kettle sour phase, and some folks skip hops all together. Hops and lacto don't get along well, so any hops should be added after you heat your wort to kill off the lacto. I boil a very judicious amount of Nobel hops like Saaz since I want a subtle amount of bitterness to round out the beer's profile. But be careful not to make hops a dominate player since you want the sour/tart of your beer to be center stage.

 

[TravelingLight]

I brewed this last week (thanks for all the advice, Morrey). Checked on it last night (8 days post-pitch US-05) and it's still bubbling the blowoff. Haven't used 05 in a while...forgot it takes a little while sometimes! Probably give it a solid 14 days before I crash and rack to the keg.

 

[Sillybilly]

You think 5 or 6 caps straight into wort will be fine or will a starter be more effective? Have you tried using only the Swanson probiotics, if so what was your method for souring. I have read many mixed reviews on hows others have done it...

 

[Morrey]

You think 5 or 6 caps straight into wort will be fine or will a starter be more effective? Have you tried using only the Swanson probiotics, if so what was your method for souring. I have read many mixed reviews on hows others have done it...

I use OYL-605 most of the time since it has never failed me. I had one pouch that was past exp and I was suspect. I added Swanson L Plantarum caps into the starter and all went fine.

I know many who just pitch direct into wort. To me, it stands to reason that making a starter with the caps would give the lacto a head start and get it working and ready for the big pitch. If you go the straight into wort route, I'd be interested in hearing your results. I bet it will work just fine.

 

[Izzie1701]

So just sampled this today for the first time. Advice to anyone looking to brew it. Over sour it if anything don't under sour it. Brew day came along thought I had Ph test strips and turns out they only test to 4.0. First sour attempt. I let it sour 36 hours as 24 hours the ph was still showing 4.4. At 36 I tested and it was off the paper. Apparently not enough though. I sampled the kettle sour and it seemed sour so thought it would get more sour after fermentation. Didn't really. The salt over powered everything and was like drinking a sweat filled beer. Yuck. I decided to add some lactic acid to see if I could save it. The more sour it got the better. Not sure where my PH is but I added a lot of lactic and now it's not awesome but drinkable. I'm guessing the lactic acid just doesn't have the complexity of a true sour to make it great as everyone has said. Going to have to try this again when I actually have a Ph monitor. Hopefully once carbed and aged for a few weeks it taste better. Was a warm sample too so that could add to it. Learning curve and an oops.

 

[Sillybilly]

So just sampled this today for the first time. Advice to anyone looking to brew it. Over sour it if anything don't under sour it. Brew day came along thought I had Ph test strips and turns out they only test to 4.0. First sour attempt. I let it sour 36 hours as 24 hours the ph was still showing 4.4. At 36 I tested and it was off the paper. Apparently not enough though. I sampled the kettle sour and it seemed sour so thought it would get more sour after fermentation. Didn't really. The salt over powered everything and was like drinking a sweat filled beer. Yuck. I decided to add some lactic acid to see if I could save it. The more sour it got the better. Not sure where my PH is but I added a lot of lactic and now it's not awesome but drinkable. I'm guessing the lactic acid just doesn't have the complexity of a true sour to make it great as everyone has said. Going to have to try this again when I actually have a Ph monitor. Hopefully once carbed and aged for a few weeks it taste better. Was a warm sample too so that could add to it. Learning curve and an oops.

You want to get the wine pH stripes, they measure 2.8 to 4.4. That's what I used because i have not justified pulling trigger on a proper pH meter ( I also had one of those 10 dollar meters which is about as precise as the strips).

How did you sour it and did you adjust pH to 4.5 before pitching lacto?

I brewed a kettle sour on Friday, I will post my results once its complete and i have my notes but off the top of my head i pitched 5 caps straight into 5.5 gallons of wort and had about a 24-36 hour lag without any noticeable pH drop, but so by 48 hours I saw some activity happening and it dropped from ~4.6 to ~4.2 and by 72 it was at like ~3.6. But by 72 hours the airlock was bubbling and what looked more like a krausen as opposed to the frothy foam so i got nervous i picked up something and decided to boil.

It had a nice tartness, but as a kid who grew up on Warheads and sour skittles, i would have liked much more. Next time I think I will do a starter though and give the lacto a good head start and maybe add one or two more caps. I also did not realize they need to be stored cold, hopefully between shipping and be leaving them out for a week i didn't lose much viability.

 

[TravelingLight]

So just sampled this today for the first time. Advice to anyone looking to brew it. Over sour it if anything don't under sour it. Brew day came along thought I had Ph test strips and turns out they only test to 4.0. First sour attempt. I let it sour 36 hours as 24 hours the ph was still showing 4.4. At 36 I tested and it was off the paper. Apparently not enough though. I sampled the kettle sour and it seemed sour so thought it would get more sour after fermentation. Didn't really. The salt over powered everything and was like drinking a sweat filled beer. Yuck. I decided to add some lactic acid to see if I could save it. The more sour it got the better. Not sure where my PH is but I added a lot of lactic and now it's not awesome but drinkable. I'm guessing the lactic acid just doesn't have the complexity of a true sour to make it great as everyone has said. Going to have to try this again when I actually have a Ph monitor. Hopefully once carbed and aged for a few weeks it taste better. Was a warm sample too so that could add to it. Learning curve and an oops.

That sucks. FWIW, I just did this beer and it was my first kettle sour. I got my ph down to about 3.2-3.3 in about 19 hours (IIRC). Were you keeping the wort warm while souring? That definitely speeds up the process. I kept mine in a bucket in a water bath with an aquarium heater and an air stone to move the water. Kept it around 80-85 degrees the whole time. It tasted mildly tart, but it was hard to really tell because of all the unfermented sugars in it. Well, after it fermented out on 05 for two weeks, it's nice and tart. And I'll be damned if the 05 didn't drop the gravity all the way to 1.004. I was impressed. Haven't used 05 since I started brewing. I just racked this beer to my keg yesterday on top of the two tinctures. Force carbed it so I'll give it a taste in a day or so. Although, I suspect this beer won't "peak" until all the flavors meld together.

 

[Sillybilly]

That sucks. FWIW, I just did this beer and it was my first kettle sour. I got my ph down to about 3.2-3.3 in about 19 hours (IIRC). Were you keeping the wort warm while souring? That definitely speeds up the process. I kept mine in a bucket in a water bath with an aquarium heater and an air stone to move the water. Kept it around 80-85 degrees the whole time. It tasted mildly tart, but it was hard to really tell because of all the unfermented sugars in it. Well, after it fermented out on 05 for two weeks, it's nice and tart. And I'll be damned if the 05 didn't drop the gravity all the way to 1.004. I was impressed. Haven't used 05 since I started brewing. I just racked this beer to my keg yesterday on top of the two tinctures. Force carbed it so I'll give it a taste in a day or so. Although, I suspect this beer won't "peak" until all the flavors meld together.

What was your source of lacto and did you use a starter?

 

[Morrey]

So just sampled this today for the first time. Advice to anyone looking to brew it. Over sour it if anything don't under sour it. Brew day came along thought I had Ph test strips and turns out they only test to 4.0. First sour attempt. I let it sour 36 hours as 24 hours the ph was still showing 4.4. At 36 I tested and it was off the paper. Apparently not enough though. I sampled the kettle sour and it seemed sour so thought it would get more sour after fermentation. Didn't really. The salt over powered everything and was like drinking a sweat filled beer. Yuck. I decided to add some lactic acid to see if I could save it. The more sour it got the better. Not sure where my PH is but I added a lot of lactic and now it's not awesome but drinkable. I'm guessing the lactic acid just doesn't have the complexity of a true sour to make it great as everyone has said. Going to have to try this again when I actually have a Ph monitor. Hopefully once carbed and aged for a few weeks it taste better. Was a warm sample too so that could add to it. Learning curve and an oops.

One of my first attempts with a Gose had a similar problem in that I wasn't really sure how sour (or how long) to let it go. If you do it by taste, the sweetness of the unfermented wort plays with your taste buds against the sour levels. That is the hardest part deciding when to kill off the lacto and stop the souring process. I like to go to 3.2 but is probably a more sour level than some choose. 3.3 is fine or 3.4 to feel your way around the low end. 3.6 is slightly sour so you can see how tight the numbers are at this critical level. I read Otra Vez from SN to be 3.7 and that is a mild sour in my opinion.

Bringing you to the critical decision to buy a decent ph meter. I went the Amazon route and bought a $15 meter. Worked fine til it displayed all 8888888's in the display screen and went belly up. 31 days to be exact and I was out of the return window. I read and researched and bought a Hach Pocket Pro + Ph meter. I think it was $124 or close, so this is something to give some thought. I do use mine all the time so I am getting my moneys worth.

You can certainly cut back on the salt per your individual tastes. I go a bit heavy on the salt as I am emulating the flavor profiles of a margarita with a salt rimmed glass. YMMV so add to taste....maybe 3/4 oz? With a heavy sour level and a high carb level, those factors offset the salt to me.

I have read more than just your post in that many first time Gose brewers say I wished I had let it sour a bit longer. I'm not sure if its a situation that the brewer is so anxious to move forward, or if it is a play it safe this time situation. Possibly it is a not knowing what to expect or look for. Long story short, I don't think I have ever heard a first time kettle sour brewer say I got it over soured this first time. Seems to be a common denominator to under sour your first Gose. Good plan to use the lactic, but as you found, it seems a bit one dimensional in comparison. Carbing helps some too as does chilling. It may get better as it mellows. Now that you have a benchmark to compare it, your next brew will be much more comfortable.

(Note: This is an advanced level beer due to so many things to consider. You did very well and will only get better)

 

[Morrey]

But by 72 hours the airlock was bubbling and what looked more like a krausen as opposed to the frothy foam so i got nervous i picked up something and decided to boil.

Did you do your kettle sour in a fermenter or carboy with an airlock? I have always simply left mine in the boil kettle with the lid on sitting right on my burner. Dropping the ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid prior to the lacto pitch helps stave off any nasties.

 

[Izzie1701]

Did you do your kettle sour in a fermenter or carboy with an airlock? I have always simply left mine in the boil kettle with the lid on sitting right on my burner. Dropping the ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid prior to the lacto pitch helps stave off any nasties.

Wow I didn't expect that many responses that quickly. I did it in my temp controlled kettle. I lowered my Ph to 4.5 after my mash with lactic acid. Then pitched white labs lacto basilis (later read this stuff isn't the greatest when I posted worries after 24 hours that it wasn't doing anything). Held temp at 100F the entire time. I also used cling wrap sitting right on top of the wort to keep O2 off of it. I tested at 7am before I left to work and when it taste it it taste pretty sour and was below 4. I actually panicked thinking whoa if it's sour now when it ferments it's going to be really sour. I guess maybe at 7am not so sour taste really sour. Anyways I cracked my kettle up to 170 that morning let it sit there for 5 mins then shut it off covered he wort again went to work and then boiled it that night.

The salty wasn't hmm salty. I don't think it's to much salt because when you add more lactic to it the salt is perfect. It's just before it gets really sour it taste like when you have sweat roll down your face and onto your lips. Salty but gross salty. Sorry not sure how to explain it. It's mostly the after taste. Once soured to sour the salt plays well with it. I literally think I just under soured it.

 

[Sillybilly]

Did you do your kettle sour in a fermenter or carboy with an airlock? I have always simply left mine in the boil kettle with the lid on sitting right on my burner. Dropping the ph down to 4.5 with lactic acid prior to the lacto pitch helps stave off any nasties.

I soured in a plastic fermenter bucket with airlock mainly because I dont have CO2 to purge with so i wanted to minimize head space. I figured there might be something hiding in FV, but was banking on the lacto finishing up before anything could take hold. And there is still a chance it was just the lacto being busy because it only dropped 2 gravity points, but if i didn't boil at that time i would have to wait 24 hours so if there was something else in there, it could do some damage before I could boil.

I did lower pH to 4.5(-ish *pH strips*) before pitching. This too is my first kettle sour attempt, so all things consider I am happy with the progress thus far. Pitched full pack of re-hydrated us-05 for each 2.5 gallon split last night.

 

[Morrey]

Then pitched white labs lacto basilis (later read this stuff isn't the greatest when I posted worries after 24 hours that it wasn't doing anything).

Way back when, I tried one of those White Labs lacto packs and it ended up being contaminated with yeast. It started fermenting in the starter, then it finished fermentation in the kettle...it never did sour but it fermented out in 3 days. Pitched that one down the drain, shifted to Omega Labs OYL-605 and haven't had a failure since. Very forgiving with a wide range of souring temps.

**White Labs was very gracious and sent me a complimentary gift card for a yeast of my choice at the LHBS.

 

[TravelingLight]

What was your source of lacto and did you use a starter?

I used OYL-605. Yep, did a starter (no stir plate though, because lacto).

 

[Morrey]

I used OYL-605. Yep, did a starter (no stir plate though, because lacto).

OYL-605 is seriously the way to go. It costs more but the results are predictable. If someone dumps a batch that didn't sour correctly, what does that cost as a comparison?

 

[TravelingLight]

UPDATE...

I got my first attempt at this kegged on Monday of this week. Did my standard practice of 30 psi, rolling the keg, 24 hours later, down to serving pressure, blah blah you all know the process. Anyway, tasted the first sample yesterday. Pretty pleased for my first gose. I wish it had more of a pucker factor, but I put the blame for that firmly on me. When I make this again, I'll let it sour longer before boiling. I don't have my notes with me, but from what I remember, my ph was down to about 3.3 in 19 hours. Next time I'm taking it down to 3.0 (if possible). I feel like the salt is spot on. It's just barely there in the background. The lime is good, but I imagine in about 2 weeks it'll be spot on. Overall, I'm super pleased for my first kettle soured gose. Ready to do this again!

Side note: When I made a starter with my 605, I followed my usual practice of overbuilding and harvesting off 500 ml or so and stored in the fridge in a jar. I always do this with sacc yeasts but this is my first time with a pure lacto culture. Will I have any trouble pitching that into a starter when I'm ready to brew another gose?

 

[Morrey]

UPDATE...

I got my first attempt at this kegged on Monday of this week. Did my standard practice of 30 psi, rolling the keg, 24 hours later, down to serving pressure, blah blah you all know the process. Anyway, tasted the first sample yesterday. Pretty pleased for my first gose. I wish it had more of a pucker factor, but I put the blame for that firmly on me. When I make this again, I'll let it sour longer before boiling. I don't have my notes with me, but from what I remember, my ph was down to about 3.3 in 19 hours. Next time I'm taking it down to 3.0 (if possible). I feel like the salt is spot on. It's just barely there in the background. The lime is good, but I imagine in about 2 weeks it'll be spot on. Overall, I'm super pleased for my first kettle soured gose. Ready to do this again!

Side note: When I made a starter with my 605, I followed my usual practice of overbuilding and harvesting off 500 ml or so and stored in the fridge in a jar. I always do this with sacc yeasts but this is my first time with a pure lacto culture. Will I have any trouble pitching that into a starter when I'm ready to brew another gose?

I have never saved back a lacto starter, but I know KeyWestBrewer does regularly. You may need to refresh or feed the starter occasionally.

Now that your Gose has had a week or two to settle off, are you enjoying the beer?

 

[TravelingLight]

I have never saved back a lacto starter, but I know KeyWestBrewer does regularly. You may need to refresh or feed the starter occasionally.

Now that your Gose has had a week or two to settle off, are you enjoying the beer?

Oh man, I'm definitely enjoying it! I've gotten lots of compliments on it. And for that, I thank YOU! I'm already thinking of other gose variants I can do with this base. I feel like the keg gets better with each pour. I'm anxious to see what it's like in another few weeks...if it lasts that long!

 

[Morrey]

Oh man, I'm definitely enjoying it! I've gotten lots of compliments on it. And for that, I thank YOU! I'm already thinking of other gose variants I can do with this base. I feel like the keg gets better with each pour. I'm anxious to see what it's like in another few weeks...if it lasts that long!

Oh man...it won't last long. I love a watermelon Gose too if interested.

 

[Sillybilly]

How would you go about bottling this beer? My plan is to add tinctures to bottling bucket and prime to 3.0 volumes.

 

[TravelingLight]

How would you go about bottling this beer? My plan is to add tinctures to bottling bucket and prime to 3.0 volumes.

That's exactly what I would do. Put the liquid from the tinctures in the bucket along with your priming solution and rack on top to mix.

 

[Sillybilly]

Sounds like a plan, Thanks!

 

[Sillybilly]

Got it bottled up this weekend, sample tasted good, just a bit sharp on the tequila and lime, but i image that will fade after awhile. Definitely wish i could have gotten pH closer to 3.1, but oh well... Excited for this guy to get carbed up. I think the probiotics pills worked well, but next time I am going to make a starter