Mangrove Jack's Yeasts review (M15, M36, M42, M44, M54)

[skleice]

I've heard plenty of people say that MJ just repackages Fermentis and Danstar. Does anybody have any proof of this? I would guess that s-04 = M36. I've used both quite a bit and they seem the same to me.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've heard plenty of people say that MJ just repackages Fermentis and Danstar. Does anybody have any proof of this? I would guess that s-04 = M36. I've used both quite a bit and they seem the same to me.

Consider going back to those "plenty of people" to see if a table of matching dry yeast strains across the labs can be put together.

It's reasonable that each of the yeast labs could be using a similar (or maybe the same) yeast strain to make their dry yeast products. Could this be what those "plenty of people" intended to say when they said "... just repackages ..."?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's reasonable that each of the yeast labs could be using a similar (or maybe the same) yeast strain to make their dry yeast products. Could this be what those "plenty of people" intended to say when they said "... just repackages ..."?

No - actual repackaging, only a handful of companies are set up for growing dry yeast. Given their antipodean roots, I'd probably look first at the Cooper and Mauri dry yeasts, otherwise I'd default to Lallemand/Danstar in the first instance. In particular I think you'll find that M29 French is a "beautiful" saison yeast.

Other people have suggested that M42 brews rather similarly to Nottingham, M03 was withdrawn at about the same time as Lallemand Manchester, M15 seems to have similar headline numbers to Windsor or ESB. But that's all speculation - it's the sort of thing that could be figured out quickly with some basic DNA analysis, unfortunately I only have very, very limited access to a lab, and that access is all booked up for the foreseeable future...

Crossmyloof seem to share a lot of the same strains, but they now seem to have started to pick up one or two extra ones like their kolsch. Ditto Bulldog.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No - actual repackaging, only a handful of companies are set up for growing dry yeast. Given their antipodean roots, I'd probably look first at the Cooper and Mauri dry yeasts, otherwise I'd default to Lallemand/Danstar in the first instance. In particular I think you'll find that M29 French is a "beautiful" saison yeast.

Interesting insights. Thank you!

 

[dmtaylor]

In my corner of the home brewing world, it appears to take a some extra effort to find a store that sells MJ dry yeast. A couple of years ago, when I was first curious about MJ dry yeast strains, I initially found it at Yakima Valley Hops (they also have malts and malt extracts in stock). Currently, Rite Brew also has many of the MJ strains (and attractive shipping options for light weight purchases). This morning, I didn't find it at a couple of the other major online home brew stores in the US.

I've found it only at Williams. Thanks for the other references.

 

[dmtaylor]

I would guess that s-04 = M36. I've used both quite a bit and they seem the same to me.

Based on independent research, I came to the identical conclusion. We might be onto something.

Not sure about the repackaging bit though. I imagine any so-called "equivalent" strains are *slightly* different.

 

[GurraG]

I have second hand info originating from a person with ties to MJ that they start from White labs/Wyeast strains and then mutate them (presumably by brewing) until the yeasts match MJ's desired characteristics, and are sufficiently different genetically to be considered a unique product.
I can't vouch for the veracity of this info, so make of it what you want.

 

[JohnSand]

I don't have any information on the source of MJ yeast. But I have toured Bootleg Biology in Nashville. It doesn't take that much to produce yeast, those guys are doing it in a small industrial space with gear that's not as fancy a some homebrew setups. That's not criticism, just an observation.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Hell, homebrewers can multiply liquid yeast in a shaken bottle - but that's a heck of a long way from making dry yeast. The likes of Lallemand have huge economies of scale, as Lallemand in particular are essentially a bread yeast factory that does a bit of beer yeast on the side.

I'll try and keep any conversations I may or may have had private, let's just talk about the public information and start with that.

They're a New Zealand company manufacturing in the UK. That means that dealing with Munton is particularly easy, Lallemand is convenient, there's a close cultural connection to Coopers and Mauri, Fermentis are less easy to deal with, there's a bunch of historic breweries leaving amazing yeast in empty casks behind every pub, one of the world's greatest yeast banks in Norwich and bottles from around the world are readily available. If they were starting from scratch, why use WL/Wyeast when there's a lot of other sources for DIY?

I don't really follow the wine side, but MJ have an extensive selection of dried wine yeasts. I suspect they track the Gervin wine yeasts made by Munton but I don't know. Lallemand are very strong on wine yeasts, Fermentis haven't been big on them in the past but are getting into them.

If MJ dealt extensively with Fermentis, it would be really easy to repackage K-97 but MJ don't offer a kolsch yeast (CML initially had the same range as MJ but have now got a kolsch yeast from Germany or Poland I think). So that in itself suggests the first assumption should not be Fermentis.

OTOH, the range in general does cross-reference fairly well to the Lallemand range, if you ignore some of the names. I wonder if that renaming of a couple of years ago represented switching to the Munton version of Nottingham, Windsor etc when they started doing the wine strains? I've not really paid attention. Munton are cheap but don't do a fulll range eg they don't do saison yeast.

So I'd think first in terms of Lallemand, and also think about trying to squeeze in things like Coopers and Mauri, although I've never used the latter. But how does Coopers compare to eg M36?

 

[dmtaylor]

But how does Coopers compare to eg M36?

Understood!

 

[GurraG]

The one concrete example I got was concerning M36. According to my info it started life as wlp023 Burton ale, and before MJ's name change/revamp the M36 was called M79 Burton union.

 

[mediant]

They're a New Zealand company manufacturing in the UK. That means that dealing with Munton is particularly easy, Lallemand is convenient, there's a close cultural connection to Coopers and Mauri

Now that you mention Mauri it rings a bell. I was once looking for anything on Mauri yeast, and found ENSIS Sciences catalog instead, which reminded me of both Mangrove and SPL Intl, that produces kits and yeast for it via kind of OEM. Bulldog and Crossmyloof seem to be in the same boat with the same yeast more or less.

Now looking at the ENSIS catalog it somehow makes me think that all of them source the yeast from Mauri in the end, at least the major strains.

• MAURIBREW DRAUGHT - high attenuation strain becomes M44 / US Pale / you-name-it
  
• MAURIBREW ALE 514 - low attenuation strain becomes M15 / Real ale / blah-blah-blah
  
• MAURIBREW WEISS - "Also suitable for Fruit Beer, Rye Beer, Witbeer and some Saisons", so M20, M21 and maybe something else "Belgian"
  
• MAURIBREW LAGER 497 - "Mauribrew LAGER 497 produces excellent classic Lager characteristics especially when fermented at 12°C/53°F. Best results are achieved with extended lagering period for flavour and aroma development. It is the perfect choice for Lager, Bock, Doppelbock and Baltic Porter. At 20°C/68°F, Mauribrew LAGER 497 enhances fruity-floral character of an Ale, with a clean Lager like profile: it makes lovely “California Ale” and German style pale/amber beers." - this it a real gem; I believe AKA M10 "Workhorse", M52 "Cali" and most likely M42 "New world" / AKA KöLSCH

I don't really follow the wine side, but MJ have an extensive selection of dried wine yeasts. I suspect they track the Gervin wine yeasts made by Munton but I don't know. Lallemand are very strong on wine yeasts, Fermentis haven't been big on them in the past but are getting into them.

It makes sense for Mangrove to source wine yeast from Mauri too. See ENSIS above for the list or at Mauri's AB Biotek's site

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That was a genuine question, I've never tried the Cooper's yeast, but S-04 just doesn't feel quite right. Most of that post was genuine hypotheticals rather than trying to disguise anything.

 

[dmtaylor]

That was a genuine question, I've never tried the Cooper's yeast, but S-04 just doesn't feel quite right. Most of that post was genuine hypotheticals rather than trying to disguise anything.

Oh, okay, got it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What are people's experiences with M31 (Belgian Tripel)?

 

[GurraG]

I've found it to be fairly similar to wlp570/wy1388, ie the Duvel yeast. It's highly attenuative (85%+ apparent attenuation) and gives off citrusy esters.

 

[dmtaylor]

I've found it to be fairly similar to wlp570/wy1388, ie the Duvel yeast. It's highly attenuative (85%+ apparent attenuation) and gives off citrusy esters.

I've heard the same. My notes say it's akin to 570/1388, dry, spicy, diastaticus.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've found it to be fairly similar to wlp570/wy1388, ie the Duvel yeast. It's highly attenuative (85%+ apparent attenuation) and gives off citrusy esters.

In other news, Fermentis WB-06 is closely related to 1388 in particular, but also WLP570....

 

[krispn]

An enjoyable thread! Been using some MJ yeast recently - currently have a Imp stout bubbling behind me with M42. I'm brewing a second batch of it tomorrow (with some tweaks) and was gonna use two packs of M44 but I'm actually just gonna stick with M42.

I've got a couple of brews in the pipeline and I think I'll stick with MJ for these (except for a NEIPA which I'll be using a different liquid yeast which I like for this style).

Anyway very enjoyable reading thanks again!

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I tried the m15 in an OG 1.064 porter, and it stopped a couple days ago at 1.023(had hoped for maybe 16 or just under 20). Would m42 be a good workhorse-strain to keep at home for darker beers in general and stronger beers in particular?

 

[dmtaylor]

I tried the m15 in an OG 1.064 porter, and it stopped a couple days ago at 1.023(had hoped for maybe 16 or just under 20). Would m42 be a good workhorse-strain to keep at home for darker beers in general and stronger beers in particular?

Sounds about right. M15 is known to be sluggish and quit earlier than we might like.

M42 is indeed a great workhorse yeast for just about any style under the sun.

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

I'll try it in my imperial stout i'm working on.