Quantcast

Mangrove Jack's Yeasts review (M15, M36, M42, M44, M54)

HomeBrewTalk.com - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Community.

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Hi guys.
So i have been here for a while and i started brewing mead and discovered Mangrove Jacks M05 yeast. Thats what got me into mangrove jacks yeasts when i started brewing beers. I have only been doing so for half a year but i have done a bunch of batches and every time i try to find info on a new MJ strain i wanted to try i usually dont find much (a lot of old comments and mixed reviews). For this reason i have decided to post my experiences with some of those yeasts, so other people can see this and know what they are in for if they choose one of the yeasts.

Beforehand i have to say a few things:
-My batches are not experimental. I didnt do side by side cmparisons, this are just my personal notes and experiences. Dont ask me to compare to other manufacturers or yeasts. I simly give you the info i have gathered in my short time brewing.
-The following is my PERSONAL opinion. you may agree or not. Also some yeasts performance may vary from batch to batch or between styles. Feel free to PM me or post any questions you have/recipes or specifics you want
-Will do my best to update the list over time if people seem to be interested
-IMPORTANT: unless stated otherwise, I always used 1 pack of yeast (11g) for 14-15 liters of beer, rehydrating the yeast 15 minutes before pitch in aprox 250ml of water at 37ºC

Thats all, here we go. I will post what i wrote for myself then elaborate a bit in a second paragraph:

· M15, Empire Ale: Attenuation is medium (70-75% depending on mash temps). Some esters but not much (cherry, plum). Pitch warm for esters (27-30ºC). Starts hard, then can stops mid ferment and finish leftover sugars after a while. Check your hydrometer. Good overall. Compacts less strongly than other yeasts in the bottle, so some more ends in your glass.

Well, compaction is not terrible but always some yeast makes it to the glass. ALso the ester thing is relative. I have used this yeast 5 times now in brown to dark beers, and the malt was always dominating, but the esters were clearly percivable, in a very positive way. Makes good stouts and browns with a decent attenuation. Also i usually pitch quite warm for the esters that i like. This results in an uneven fermentation every time, i think this yeast is a mix of 2 strains. First it ferments REALLY fast around 55-60% of the sugars (may happen in even less than 24h). Then stops for a few days (4-8) and then picks up again and finishes. So dont rack early, and check your hydro after a couple weeks. Overall one of my favs cause i love dark beers.

· M36, Liberty Bell Ale: Ferments cleanly, low esters, makes fine beer. A swiss-army-yeast. Attenuation is medium-high (75%)

Have used only twice. Good results, but i would be lying if i said much more. However i had no complaints with the beer. Floc and compaction are good, it does give some esters but not strong even in a sessionable beer without dominating malt or hop flavours.

· M42, New World Strong Ale: Very fast yeast. Kicks in fast, ferments at medium speed. High attenuation (78-81%). Ferments maltotriose but careful, if mashing over 67ºC can under attenuate. Produces a desirable array of fruity esters and phenols if fermented warm. No undesirable fusels even if consumed early. Packs heavily on the bottle. Can produce hints of Sulphur if underpitched (starter)

This yeast is awesome. So good. I have fermented with it and it flocculates and falls down faster than the trub (i had the white layer of yeast UNDER the green/brown trub, im not joking). packs so good in the bottle if you can lager the beer for a week or so you can put crystal clear beer in your glass. Also its great to pitch at 20ºC or less and make Altbier or similar. The esters are really low. If pitched warmer it has a bit more but definitely nothing major, and fade away soon. I made a starter once out of washed yeast and the beer i did with that had hints of sulphur, nothing too strong, and were gone after 2 weeks in the bottle. Also this yeast allows for very fast turnaround beer. I have bottled after 14 days perfectly fine beer (with an OG of 1.050)

· M44 US West Coast: Takes a while to get rolling (18-24h). Attenuation is medium-high (78%). Leaves clean taste that really let malt and hops come through. Take care while racking, lees don’t tend to stay behind in the bottle.

So yeah, takes a while to give signs of life, a bit less than 24h if you pitch warmer. But all around produces great beer, super clean flavour. Attenuates quite a lot. Always some yeast makes it to the bottle too. I used it with some tettnanger hops and it was good. currently using in on a Polaris hops APA.

· M54, Californian Lager: Slow-ish starter (18-24h). Finishes fast in 3-4 days. Flocs good and stays behind in bottles. Attenuation is high (77%), very clean in the ester department.

Again a bit of a slow starter but not as much as M44. I was really surprised with this one, only just used it recently in a schwarzbier, and its amazing. Great floc and packs well on the bottles (not as much as M42 but still makes for clear beer). It gave sort of a vinous mouthfeel to the schwarz, but it was in a good way (and it was at 1.012 FG). Will definitely try again for lagers because i didnt feel any esters even if i didnt lager the beer at all. If you cant lager i recomed trying your hand at a normal lager using this yeast. Wont be disssapointed.

So thats it. Im currently fermenting a Dark Brown Ale with M15 and the polaris APA i mentioned with M44, will update when those are ready if ppl show interest in the thread. I hope this helps someone though.
 
Last edited:

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,947
Reaction score
2,342
Location
Bremen
Thanks for the information. It is really hard to find info on the new versions of their yeasts. Some seem to be old ones under a new name and some seem to be different yeasts.

Do you think that the m36 liberty ale might be the wlp051 which is supposed to be the original anchor liberty ale strain? I am looking to clone this beer as I simply love it.

I also would 2nd your thoughts on the m44. Used it once in a red ipa without temp control. Did work really well, malt is present, hops are shining and the beer is pretty clean in regards to esters.
But I made a starter first because I read about the horrible lag times some people experienced with it and I did not want to take risks.

I will definitely try the m42 for a dark mild, sounds exactly like what I was looking for.

Also the Californian lager is getting interesting as it should be able to ferment warm and a lager yeast with good flocculation would be really nice to have.

Have you made further experiences with the mj yeasts?

Thanks for this thread.
 
Last edited:
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Hey!
as i previously said i havent really compared to other strains. About m36 i cant give you that much info except the attenuation levels and the description is pretty accurate. Good floc and stuff and the esters are there but low ish.
I would recomend giving it a try, sorry i cant be of more help.

I did the m44 and m15 beers and i think my thermometer i slightly off because both underattenuated and it has happened before when i try to mash high.ish (68ºC). So it ended up being 3 points higher than it should. But the results are pretty good. It did creat a really nice beer and with the Polaris hops the bitterness is really smooth. Other than that i couldnt distinguish esters but maybe it was more balanced with a bit of sweetness because of the underattenuation "problem".
If im completely honest i think m44 is quite nice but perfectly replaceble by m42 most of the time if you go with like 18ºC pitching. M42 is faster and floculates even better.
Maybe m42 gives a bit of a thinner body, better for pilsners or that kind of lager-like ales, but i made the -only pilsner malt- beer and it still had quite enough malt taste, with only a bit of contribution from the yeast very early on (i tasted it 20 days after pitch and had a hint of sulphur and maaaybe a tad of esters but not even sure. Both dissapeared after another week and left a great clean tasting beer). But they are somewhat similar. I will still pick m44 for another round or two of APAs (if going with a lot of hops or non citrusy hops, pick m44, and if you want a rounder mouthfeel with hop flavour dominace m44 aswell) but m42 seems to me like the best swiss army knife of the mangrove series. It really makes wonderful beer with the added benefit of it leaving very clear stuff in the glass, and its completely tastless to me when it ends up in the glass (i have tried on purpose, it changes the mouthfeel a bit but mangrove clames very low autolysis from it and this makes it have less impact on taste and be better at surviving after washing for reusing. I definitely didnt pick any taste change from it ending up in the glass).

Also m44 is kinda slow so if you use it give it 24-36h before you worry. I would go for it, you can try to pitch it at high ish temps (24ºC or so. Its a quite neutral yeast and it takes time so the beer will cool down and you might shave a few hours of lag time). Still i think its slow but reliable. It ferments fast once it picks up, so i dont think you risk contamination, or need a starter if the pitch rate is enough. Make sure to rehydrate properly and thats it.

I also used m15 as i said by using a starter. It attenuated fully without fermentation bumps. I think the normal package contains 2 strains, and one makes more esters early on and the other finishes the fermentation. Still no report on the flavour because i bottled it quite recently and havent tried it yet, but i think its possible that this beer may have less esters than if i just pitched fresh yeast.

I also fermented a sour with m54. Still untasted but it took longer than expected to kick u, probably because of the pH. Just a fair warning. It did work through it though.

I know its not exactly the info you wanted on m36, i still have to give it another try, but hope it helps anyway.
Coming up soon a scottish ale with m15, a dunkel with m54 and a belgian pale ale with m47.

Edit: if anyone wants any of the specific recipes im happy to share, just PM me.
 
Last edited:

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,947
Reaction score
2,342
Location
Bremen
Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated. I just ordered the liberty ale and the 42 plus the Californian lager together with enough malt for multiple batches. Next on my list is a Schwarzbier with wyeast 800 and afterwards it's going to be a dark mild with either the liberty ale or the 42. I will decide on the brewing day but I favor the 42 as I really like the idea of having a s04-like flocculation and compaction without the downsides of s04. Sounds like this might become my new favorite.
 

TasunkaWitko

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 27, 2014
Messages
2,821
Reaction score
971
Location
Chinook
Thanks for taking the time to write these observations; I especially appreciate the "real-life" notes and plain language.

If you get the chance, I'd be grateful to see a write-up on M20.
 
Last edited:
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
@TasunkaWitko Thanks for the appreciation! i have a recipe for a wheat brew already prepared with M20 but it might take a while cause i have to move to another place this summer and i have the next few brews planed (aka the malt is ordered and no wheat in it). Might push it through but it will likely happen in septmeber or so. I dont brew enough to review them all, altough i would like to try the wheat indeed. Will post when i brew with it though

@Miraculix I made a schwarz with m54 which came out awesome. You may want to try a side by side or something with that wyeast. m42 is definitely a good choice all around. Pair it with some herschbrucker or some other citrusy hop for extra kick. Feel free to post your own notes and experiences to add up to the list, of course!
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
Do you think that the m36 liberty ale might be the wlp051 which is supposed to be the original anchor liberty ale strain? I am looking to clone this beer as I simply love it.

I also would 2nd your thoughts on the m44. Used it once in a red ipa without temp control. Did work really well, malt is present, hops are shining and the beer is pretty clean in regards to esters.
But I made a starter first because I read about the horrible lag times some people experienced with it and I did not want to take risks.
M44 being laggy sounds like BRY-97/WLP051, whereas M42 being clean and well-attenuating sounds like a Chico/BRY-96/US-05 variant.

Not sure where that leaves M36 though, it's on the list for some basic DNA work later in the year. Liberty Bell suggests a connection with Philadelphia rather than California, so maybe it's the Yuengling yeast or something (which is German and capable of making lager, so either a kolsch yeast or Frohberg lager yeast. Hmm, MJ classify it as a top-fermenting cerevisiae, so not a Frohberg then.). I know MJ reckon it's a "High" floccer, I'm not sure I'd go that far - it drops pretty well eventually but it does seem a bit powdery IME.

@Dadux - do you get any hint of phenolic twang from M15? I've got a packet, the first thing I want to do with it is to throw it at some ferulic acid to test for POF-ness. It's been suggested on the interwebs that the old M03 Newcastle Dark Ale (later UK Dark Ale) was linked to the old Lallemand/Danstar Manchester; M03 disappeared about the same time as Lallemand pulled Manchester. I wonder if they just found another source for the same yeast, but couldn't call it the same thing.

The old name for M03 would suggest a link to one beer in particular, which is also linked to Brewlab F40, known to be a particularly fruity yeast. But a lot of northern English yeasts are actually members of the saison family, which is why I want to test it for POF-ness. Might also be interesting to make a small starter with it and ferment it hot just to see what happens.
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
M03 has been confirmed by MJ to be M15 i think. Or some other. But it already existed. I think they rebranded many of their stuff so i wouldnt bank on maybe all the names (new ones at least) linking to origin. Might be but not sure. M15 produces good ammount of esters and i am no experienced taster so i cant tell you if there is a bit of phenol or not. I can tell you that i have used it mainly in dark ans brown beer with dominating malt taste and it combines well and i pick up mostly cherry and dark fruit esters. But in all cases the malt dominated and i didnt pick any hint of what i associate with phenols from belgian beers (ex, clove) but it might have been covered up by a lot of dark and specialty malts.
Also as i have said there are two strains there i think. One attenuates only 60% or so and then it stops for a week and then finishes. So i think there are two yeasts. This hasnt happened when using starter of washed yeast and been accentuated (longer waits inbetween the first part of the fermentation and the second) when pitching hot (27°C), as was the production of ester.

About m36 a funny tjing about MJ is that all yeasts even the normal lager ones are labeled as S. Cerevisiae. So im not sure if its mislabeled or what. I would say it behaves more like an ale one, but i truly have never used lager yeast except their m54 and it has longer lag time but its also marked as cerevisiae so...m44 has similar lag times but it has been suggested that that particular strain simply has half the ammount of cells per gram and that is what makes it slower.
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
M03 has been confirmed by MJ to be M15 i think. Or some other. But it already existed. I think they rebranded many of their stuff
AIUI they've been quite insistent that it wasn't a simple "rebrand" - the contents did change. But that's compatible with it being the "same" yeast from a different source (eg if they used to buy in Manchester from Lallemand and now they've got the "same" yeast from a different generation (so will have mutated very slightly so is not the "same") that they're now growing inhouse. And it's also compatible with it being the same "main" yeast but adding extra strains to make it a blend.

It's interesting that you mention that you think they could be a blend, as MJ seem to have a reputation for not taking kindly to repitching, supposedly they "go off" within just a few generations. Which sounds like a blend to me. It makes a lot of sense - not just from the selfish commercial one of forcing people to buy new packets each time, but it allows you to combine better-attenuating strains with better-floccing ones - Nottingham is the classic example of a dry yeast blend.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that a bit of a stall is necessarily proof of a blend - it could just be that they grow them up on simple sugars, and they need a bit of time to unpack the genetic toolkit for chomping complex sugars when they meet normal wort for the first time.

M15 produces good ammount of esters and i am no experienced taster so i cant tell you if there is a bit of phenol or not. I can tell you that i have used it mainly in dark ans brown beer with dominating malt taste and it combines well and i pick up mostly cherry and dark fruit esters. But in all cases the malt dominated and i didnt pick any hint of what i associate with phenols from belgian beers (ex, clove) but it might have been covered up by a lot of dark and specialty malts.
The British saisons aren't generally producing that full-on clove as they're not fermented at high enough temperatures, it's more of a slight twang that you get in many Yorkshire beers. But eg Wiper & True made an acclaimed Yorkshire Saison last year, fermenting WLP037 hot. As I say, it's early days on all this stuff, at least in the public domain - I'm waiting for WLP037 and 038 to be released from the Vault before I can test them with ferulic acid. (unless anyone happens to have them in their freezer and can do a swap?)

About m36 a funny tjing about MJ is that all yeasts even the normal lager ones are labeled as S. Cerevisiae. So im not sure if its mislabeled or what. I would say it behaves more like an ale one, but i truly have never used lager yeast except their m54 and it has longer lag time but its also marked as cerevisiae so...m44 has similar lag times but it has been suggested that that particular strain simply has half the ammount of cells per gram and that is what makes it slower.
Heh, you're right. Still, it's just about possible that they really are using all ale strains for convenience in the factory (even WLP800 Pilsner is actually a cerevisiae for instance) - or they're deliberately hiding behind the current confusion on how to classify the brewing yeasts, the more we find out about their genetics the more complicated the picture becomes.

As it happens, I've an M36 SMaSHish to hand as I type. It's one that I made 4-5 months ago and it's drinking a lot better than it was before Christmas - it's cleaned up quite a bit and the hops (some old Chinook with a bit of older Amarillo) are much better defined, the grapefruit & pine is much more obvious than it was. Still not quite dropped clear - you can read through it but there's still a bit of haze, don't think I cold-crashed it below about 10C though. Interesting comparing to the one I had last night which was essentially the same but had small pinches of Fermentis T-58 and WB-06 as well as M36 as the main yeast. Obviously loads of biotransformation going on in the mixed pitch - overall rather less hoppiness but much more complex mix of citrus - lemony, lime, bit of mandarin. Both good, but very different.
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
well here is the M47 review guys.
my notes:
· M47: Good yeast in the speed department. Quite a lot of krausen, don’t fill to high: very quick starter specially if pitched in the upper temp range. Takes slightly more to sediment than others (10 days since pitch for normal OG). Fermentation is straightforward, lots of krausen, attenuation is higher than expected (83% mash at 64ºC). Flocculation is good but takes a bit more than other strains to happen. Slightly fruity but not dominant. Handles alcohol with no problem.

A bit about this yeast: i had never brewed belgians. I liked the commercial examples but this was nothing like it. I tried a fairly simple BPA and it was nothing what i expected. The beer itself is quite awesome. I would not hesitate to throw this yeast into any normal beer like an APA or give it a try with a simple recipe. Its also the first yeast that i feel its description in the mangrove jacks PDF is not that accurate.

Lets start with how it behaves. It starts petty pretty quickly (to be fair i also pitched in the upper range of its range), less than 4h and it was bubbling. There was more krausen than i have had with any other strain. As i said, i feel that it does NOT flocculate and fall out of suspension as fast as other strains with a "4" in the floc category (by MJ) like M36, M54...it does, however, produce a cake as compact. So you might want to not bottle too early. Another thing is the attenuation. I got a 83% attenuation, masing at 64ºC. I feel that MJ yeast range is only true at 66ºC mash for 1 hour. Any deviation, you are looking at an easy 5-8% shift in attenuation. This is not necessarily bad but i have noticed that mashing at 68ºC with M42, M15 and M44 caused the yeast to attenuate a 7% less in all cases and now this with M47 has an extra 6% attenuation (altough its a belgian strain so it might just be that...unsure). Just felt it was important.

Going into the sensory analysis i got quite surprised. Also because MJ PDF describes it in relation to another strain that i have yet to try in beer (altough i have tried it in mead) i did not know very well what to expect. I tasted this beer 20 days after pitch. With the extra attenuation and a bump in efficiency, this beer got to 6.5% ABV. I didnt find any trace of alcohol taste. I also pitched at 26ºC but the yeast compounds that i expected in a belgian were not there that strongly. It did have evident fruity tones but they didnt dominate at all, but were more of a supporting character. At this point i should also say my grain bill was fairly simple and nothing that dominated, same goes for IBU and hops (was a single hop with calypso, 26 ibu, medium charge of dry hop at pitch but they are not know to be very aromatic hops either, and that is what i have seen).

All in all i was pleasantly surprised with this yeast, made for a good and very well rounded beer, no problem with the somewhat high alcohol, and does good all around. The mouthfeel was not dry at all even when the OG was 1.009. One beer does not define a strain, but those are my thoughts and i hope they are useful to you.
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,947
Reaction score
2,342
Location
Bremen
I brewed a few beers with m42 new world strong ale in the last weeks. Very nice flocculation, a little bit of English esters and attenuation around 80%. Solid yeast.

But I observed one thing which is rather interesting. I have a solid almond flavour in some of the beers.
I know that this off flavour is usually oxygen related and it would fit as the beers done in glass fermenters have only a hint of the almond flavour, compared to the bucket beers, but still, I never have this issue with any other yeast using the same methods and recipes.

Any idea how this could be yeast related? Maybe the yeast produces an unusually high amount of those almond flavour precursors that turn into almond flavour when oxidized?
 
Last edited:
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Sneak peak: soon coming up M41 in a golden strong belgian and M20 wheat yeast!
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Well this is a mangrove jacks yeast thread. If i ever get my hands on some kveik (i am in sweden) i could try. However i read about it and i dont think its that spectacular. "Ferments fast" ok lol my ferments are usually done in 48h if i pitch on the high end of the yeast. "Ferments at 40°C" i have gone up to 37 with wine yeast with no problem or weird fusels. So idk where all the fuss comes about with the kveik. But i mean, i havent tried a beer made with it so...
(Im not saying its not good, just on paper it honestly doesnt seem that special?)
 

Miraculix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2017
Messages
3,947
Reaction score
2,342
Location
Bremen
Well this is a mangrove jacks yeast thread. If i ever get my hands on some kveik (i am in sweden) i could try. However i read about it and i dont think its that spectacular. "Ferments fast" ok lol my ferments are usually done in 48h if i pitch on the high end of the yeast. "Ferments at 40°C" i have gone up to 37 with wine yeast with no problem or weird fusels. So idk where all the fuss comes about with the kveik. But i mean, i havent tried a beer made with it so...
(Im not saying its not good, just on paper it honestly doesnt seem that special?)
I ment that I'd rather like them to produce a dry yeast kveik and not the 20th wheat yeast.
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Its called M20 but its not the 20th (of the company. And thete arent so many dried yeast wheat)
But i get your point. The yeast companies should def be more innovative. Culturing wild yeast is so easy and produced crazy flavours sometimes. They should think a bit outside the box. I like when my yeast gives flavours to the beer.
 

jimmyjusa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
261
Reaction score
83
Its called M20 but its not the 20th (of the company. And thete arent so many dried yeast wheat)
But i get your point. The yeast companies should def be more innovative. Culturing wild yeast is so easy and produced crazy flavours sometimes. They should think a bit outside the box. I like when my yeast gives flavours to the beer.
I used the m20 in a brew and got about 64% attenuation, split batch where the other batch got safale wb-06 and that attenuation was in the upper 70s, interested to see how it works for you
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Only times when i get such a low att is when i use munich malts as base malts with the mangrove jacks yeast (happened with several). What was your grain bill like?

I should also mention i play a bit with water adjustments to make sure my phs are in a good range
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
I ment that I'd rather like them to produce a dry yeast kveik and not the 20th wheat yeast.
Supposedly the original MJ numbers were based on birthdays etc of friends that they particularly associated with a style. I guess the old M79 Burton was because the person they knew who brewed the best British bitter was born in 1979 and so on. I think the link was broken in the big renumbering they did though.

Dry kveik is the obvious next step for the dry yeast companies, given that it's evolved to be dried there should be fewer problems than they've had with Conan which has been a nightmare.
 

jimmyjusa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
261
Reaction score
83
Only times when i get such a low att is when i use munich malts as base malts with the mangrove jacks yeast (happened with several). What was your grain bill like?

I should also mention i play a bit with water adjustments to make sure my phs are in a good range
It was 50/50 white wheat and dark munich to try and make a dunkelweizen. Interesting that munich drops your att, i thought it was interesting that using the same wort to have such a difference i think it was 1.020 for mj and 1.014 for the fermentis. The mj had more clove of the two end that was with mid 70s ambient air to ferment (i was trying to get banana)
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
Yes it has happened to me with several yeasts, namely m15, m54 and i think m42. But i made a normal wheat with 65% wheat, 25% pils and 10% munich (aprox). So i dont expect the low att. I will post about it soom though.
 

Tarpon87

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2016
Messages
289
Reaction score
88
Location
Williamsburg
I had the same results with m47, i made a BPA, fermented on the cool side, 62 for the first 4 days trying to supress some of the esters, slowly rising to 68. The beer is amazing, buts its an APA, not a BPA.
 

vinceR

New Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
I have just made a M15 starter, with rehydration then pitched into 1ltr of water and 100gms light dme.Vigorous shaking during first few hours,fermenting after 4 hours and after 24hrs no bubbles rising and settled out at bottom of flask.sg now 1.020 so only an attenuation of 60%, is this the attenuation I should expect when pitched into wort? Will be using a can of brewferm Kriek (sugar and malt level unknown currently) and candi sugar to bring wort up to 1.055og. Yes, this is not a yeast for Kriek but I do not want a lambic sour style , and will back sweeten with xylitol and potassium bicarbonate to tame acidity at bottling stage.Thanks
 
Last edited:
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
No. Wait a couple weeks and it will do a second fermentation. It has two yeast strain mixed. Do not bottle until it has fermented again
 
OP
D

Dadux

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2017
Messages
91
Reaction score
31
So here we go: M20 and M41 reviews!

M20: Notes: Fermentation wise behaves like M15. Ferments first around 60% sugars and two weeks after it restarts and finishes. I got an 80% att mashing at 64ºC. Floculattion is actually good, i get quite clear beer, the yeast residue is similar to other yeasts like M36, M15, M54. Taste wise i am a bit disappointed. I like the taste of the beer i got but its not super wheat like. I mean definitely some wheat esters but i did not do a feruli acid rest, just mashed with a grain bill of 65% wheat. I love the beer i got but its inbetween a wheat lager and sth like franciskaner or paulaner. A nice thing however is it deals well with higher ABV, i got 6.5% without a trace of alcohol taste or flavour. I will definitely use again this yeast because i want to try to use it with a ferulic acid rest, and i like this beer a lot, but i might try other wheat yeast for a more wheat flavoured beer. If the ferulic rest does sth to change the flavour then i will post it. A note, i did pitch at 28ºC so in the higher range and with this i expected a shitload of esters.

M41: Well as many others before me i say it: this yeast is a BEAST. mashed at 66 and got a 94% attenuation (FG 1.004). Its fast and nice, flocs great, pitched at 28ºC as well and the taste is clean, there is some alcohol but its been only 1 month since pitch and it has 8.2% so i expected that. The alcohol is clean, no fusels and background flavour that i expect to mellow. A wide arrange of esters and phenols that are reaaaally pleasant and exactly what i expect in a belgian dominate the flavour of the beer. The only problem i see with it is the stupidly high attenuation. i did use some sugar (candy sugar) but still i expected less att. I will try M31 next time i do a high ABV belgian. I really like the taste produced by this yeast however and would recommend it to anyone who wants a dry belgian. And definitely dont be afraid of pitching high!
 

KLMtheReal

Active Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
37
Reaction score
12
Location
Athens, Greece
Hi guys.
So i have been here for a while and i started brewing mead and discovered Mangrove Jacks M05 yeast. Thats what got me into mangrove jacks yeasts when i started brewing beers. I have only been doing so for half a year but i have done a bunch of batches and every time i try to find info on a new MJ strain i wanted to try i usually dont find much (a lot of old comments and mixed reviews). For this reason i have decided to post my experiences with some of those yeasts, so other people can see this and know what they are in for if they choose one of the yeasts.

Beforehand i have to say a few things:
-My batches are not experimental. I didnt do side by side cmparisons, this are just my personal notes and experiences. Dont ask me to compare to other manufacturers or yeasts. I simly give you the info i have gathered in my short time brewing.
-The following is my PERSONAL opinion. you may agree or not. Also some yeasts performance may vary from batch to batch or between styles. Feel free to PM me or post any questions you have/recipes or specifics you want
-Will do my best to update the list over time if people seem to be interested
-IMPORTANT: unless stated otherwise, I always used 1 pack of yeast (11g) for 14-15 liters of beer, rehydrating the yeast 15 minutes before pitch in aprox 250ml of water at 37ºC

Thats all, here we go. I will post what i wrote for myself then elaborate a bit in a second paragraph:

· M15, Empire Ale: Attenuation is medium (70-75% depending on mash temps). Some esters but not much (cherry, plum). Pitch warm for esters (27-30ºC). Starts hard, then can stops mid ferment and finish leftover sugars after a while. Check your hydrometer. Good overall. Compacts less strongly than other yeasts in the bottle, so some more ends in your glass.

Well, compaction is not terrible but always some yeast makes it to the glass. ALso the ester thing is relative. I have used this yeast 5 times now in brown to dark beers, and the malt was always dominating, but the esters were clearly percivable, in a very positive way. Makes good stouts and browns with a decent attenuation. Also i usually pitch quite warm for the esters that i like. This results in an uneven fermentation every time, i think this yeast is a mix of 2 strains. First it ferments REALLY fast around 55-60% of the sugars (may happen in even less than 24h). Then stops for a few days (4-8) and then picks up again and finishes. So dont rack early, and check your hydro after a couple weeks. Overall one of my favs cause i love dark beers.

· M36, Liberty Bell Ale: Ferments cleanly, low esters, makes fine beer. A swiss-army-yeast. Attenuation is medium-high (75%)

Have used only twice. Good results, but i would be lying if i said much more. However i had no complaints with the beer. Floc and compaction are good, it does give some esters but not strong even in a sessionable beer without dominating malt or hop flavours.

· M42, New World Strong Ale: Very fast yeast. Kicks in fast, ferments at medium speed. High attenuation (78-81%). Ferments maltotriose but careful, if mashing over 67ºC can under attenuate. Produces a desirable array of fruity esters and phenols if fermented warm. No undesirable fusels even if consumed early. Packs heavily on the bottle. Can produce hints of Sulphur if underpitched (starter)

This yeast is awesome. So good. I have fermented with it and it flocculates and falls down faster than the trub (i had the white layer of yeast UNDER the green/brown trub, im not joking). packs so good in the bottle if you can lager the beer for a week or so you can put crystal clear beer in your glass. Also its great to pitch at 20ºC or less and make Altbier or similar. The esters are really low. If pitched warmer it has a bit more but definitely nothing major, and fade away soon. I made a starter once out of washed yeast and the beer i did with that had hints of sulphur, nothing too strong, and were gone after 2 weeks in the bottle. Also this yeast allows for very fast turnaround beer. I have bottled after 14 days perfectly fine beer (with an OG of 1.050)

· M44 US West Coast: Takes a while to get rolling (18-24h). Attenuation is medium-high (78%). Leaves clean taste that really let malt and hops come through. Take care while racking, lees don’t tend to stay behind in the bottle.

So yeah, takes a while to give signs of life, a bit less than 24h if you pitch warmer. But all around produces great beer, super clean flavour. Attenuates quite a lot. Always some yeast makes it to the bottle too. I used it with some tettnanger hops and it was good. currently using in on a Polaris hops APA.

· M54, Californian Lager: Slow-ish starter (18-24h). Finishes fast in 3-4 days. Flocs good and stays behind in bottles. Attenuation is high (77%), very clean in the ester department.

Again a bit of a slow starter but not as much as M44. I was really surprised with this one, only just used it recently in a schwarzbier, and its amazing. Great floc and packs well on the bottles (not as much as M42 but still makes for clear beer). It gave sort of a vinous mouthfeel to the schwarz, but it was in a good way (and it was at 1.012 FG). Will definitely try again for lagers because i didnt feel any esters even if i didnt lager the beer at all. If you cant lager i recomed trying your hand at a normal lager using this yeast. Wont be disssapointed.

So thats it. Im currently fermenting a Dark Brown Ale with M15 and the polaris APA i mentioned with M44, will update when those are ready if ppl show interest in the thread. I hope this helps someone though.
Thanks for the great input. Here in Greece Mangove Jack's products, both yeasts and prehopped kits are considered premium! Yet I find it weird that I haven't seen any reference from homebrewers in the US, UK etc. The main complaint about dry yeasts is the lack of variety, so either brewers use a generic yeast like US-05/04 or they switch to liquid yeast (I can understand the additional benefits of a yeast starter nonetheless). I mostly use MJ's yeasts in my brews.

I've used the M44 US west coast in our American IPA that we got to this year's competition. We did a double dryhop and then we cold crashed. It produced a very clean and crisp beer.

I've also used two packs of New World Strong Ale in my imperial milk stout that I plan to condition in secondary with oak chips and bourbon. The beer had an OG of 1093 with lactose (BIAB). The fermentation kicked in rather quickly, getting to high krausen in only 12 hours. The vigorous bubbling lasted for only 2 days, the temperature rised to 24°C from the initial 20°C. I got scared of getting off flavors, I was getting a strong alcoholic smell from the airlock, so I moved the fermenter to the coldest room in the house. When the beer returned to 20 degrees I moved it in my room again where it stays at 20 up until now, the bubbling reduced to occasional bubbling each 20 seconds approximately. The smell is very clean now, a malty sweet smell. I will leave the beer on the trub for 3 weeks since potential off flavors will dissipate that way
 

mediant

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2017
Messages
92
Reaction score
73
M20: Notes: [...] Taste wise i am a bit disappointed. I like the taste of the beer i got but its not super wheat like. I mean definitely some wheat esters but i did not do a feruli acid rest, just mashed with a grain bill of 65% wheat. If the ferulic rest does sth to change the flavour then i will post it. A note, i did pitch at 28ºC so in the higher range and with this i expected a poopyload of esters.
Thanks for starting this thread and sharing your experience with these strains. I brewed with M20 too, and the results were somewhat different, which must be explained by different handling. Every time, except when fermented cold, M20 produced strong ripe banana aromas, typical for Bavarian wheat beers.

As with every estery yeast, the procedure is to pitch cold, only warming later, e.g. at high krausen. For Weiss beers warming to or keeping at 21C-22C all the way provides balanced aromas that work fine for me, Belgians may go higher.

The rationale here is there's no point in pitching hot, like you mention. Instead one should consistently keep high temperature from the moment fermentation kicks in, as ester production is reduced early in fermentation because acetyl-CoA is used for yeast growth and is not available for ester production.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
2,127
Reaction score
1,223
Yet I find it weird that I haven't seen any reference from homebrewers in the US, UK etc. The main complaint about dry yeasts is the lack of variety, so either brewers use a generic yeast like US-05/04 or they switch to liquid yeast
In my corner of the home brewing world, it appears to take a some extra effort to find a store that sells MJ dry yeast. A couple of years ago, when I was first curious about MJ dry yeast strains, I initially found it at Yakima Valley Hops (they also have malts and malt extracts in stock). Currently, Rite Brew also has many of the MJ strains (and attractive shipping options for light weight purchases). This morning, I didn't find it at a couple of the other major online home brew stores in the US.

As for lack of variety with dry yeast, this appears to have changed a couple years ago - but it may take a couple of years for the 'general consensus' in home brewing forums to change. For the three major yeast labs I have access to (MJ, Fermentis, Lallemand), I generally have two or three options for the style of beer that I'm brewing.
 

jimmyjusa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
261
Reaction score
83
I used the m20 in a recent brew and it performed much better having just a small portion of munich compared to being 50%of the grist. Attenuation was more around the 80s vs mid 60s i got before. Quite similar in flavor profile but unfortunately the hops i used didn't seem to mesh well as i hoped it would.
 

skleice

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2017
Messages
323
Reaction score
151
I've heard plenty of people say that MJ just repackages Fermentis and Danstar. Does anybody have any proof of this? I would guess that s-04 = M36. I've used both quite a bit and they seem the same to me.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
2,127
Reaction score
1,223
I've heard plenty of people say that MJ just repackages Fermentis and Danstar. Does anybody have any proof of this? I would guess that s-04 = M36. I've used both quite a bit and they seem the same to me.
Consider going back to those "plenty of people" to see if a table of matching dry yeast strains across the labs can be put together.

It's reasonable that each of the yeast labs could be using a similar (or maybe the same) yeast strain to make their dry yeast products. Could this be what those "plenty of people" intended to say when they said "... just repackages ..."?
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
It's reasonable that each of the yeast labs could be using a similar (or maybe the same) yeast strain to make their dry yeast products. Could this be what those "plenty of people" intended to say when they said "... just repackages ..."?
No - actual repackaging, only a handful of companies are set up for growing dry yeast. Given their antipodean roots, I'd probably look first at the Cooper and Mauri dry yeasts, otherwise I'd default to Lallemand/Danstar in the first instance. In particular I think you'll find that M29 French is a "beautiful" saison yeast.

Other people have suggested that M42 brews rather similarly to Nottingham, M03 was withdrawn at about the same time as Lallemand Manchester, M15 seems to have similar headline numbers to Windsor or ESB. But that's all speculation - it's the sort of thing that could be figured out quickly with some basic DNA analysis, unfortunately I only have very, very limited access to a lab, and that access is all booked up for the foreseeable future...

Crossmyloof seem to share a lot of the same strains, but they now seem to have started to pick up one or two extra ones like their kolsch. Ditto Bulldog.
 

BrewnWKopperKat

Well-Known Member
Joined
Oct 6, 2017
Messages
2,127
Reaction score
1,223
No - actual repackaging, only a handful of companies are set up for growing dry yeast. Given their antipodean roots, I'd probably look first at the Cooper and Mauri dry yeasts, otherwise I'd default to Lallemand/Danstar in the first instance. In particular I think you'll find that M29 French is a "beautiful" saison yeast.
Interesting insights. Thank you!
 

dmtaylor

Lord Idiot the Lazy
HBT Supporter
Joined
Nov 8, 2009
Messages
4,421
Reaction score
2,596
Location
Two Rivers, WI
In my corner of the home brewing world, it appears to take a some extra effort to find a store that sells MJ dry yeast. A couple of years ago, when I was first curious about MJ dry yeast strains, I initially found it at Yakima Valley Hops (they also have malts and malt extracts in stock). Currently, Rite Brew also has many of the MJ strains (and attractive shipping options for light weight purchases). This morning, I didn't find it at a couple of the other major online home brew stores in the US.
I've found it only at Williams. Thanks for the other references.
 

GurraG

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2010
Messages
111
Reaction score
14
Location
Sweden
I have second hand info originating from a person with ties to MJ that they start from White labs/Wyeast strains and then mutate them (presumably by brewing) until the yeasts match MJ's desired characteristics, and are sufficiently different genetically to be considered a unique product.
I can't vouch for the veracity of this info, so make of it what you want.
 

JohnSand

Moderator
Staff member
Mod
Lifetime Supporter
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
4,883
Reaction score
2,210
Location
Long Island NY
I don't have any information on the source of MJ yeast. But I have toured Bootleg Biology in Nashville. It doesn't take that much to produce yeast, those guys are doing it in a small industrial space with gear that's not as fancy a some homebrew setups. That's not criticism, just an observation.
 

Northern_Brewer

British - apparently some US company stole my name
Joined
Aug 16, 2017
Messages
3,073
Reaction score
2,346
Location
UK
Hell, homebrewers can multiply liquid yeast in a shaken bottle - but that's a heck of a long way from making dry yeast. The likes of Lallemand have huge economies of scale, as Lallemand in particular are essentially a bread yeast factory that does a bit of beer yeast on the side.

I'll try and keep any conversations I may or may have had private, let's just talk about the public information and start with that.

They're a New Zealand company manufacturing in the UK. That means that dealing with Munton is particularly easy, Lallemand is convenient, there's a close cultural connection to Coopers and Mauri, Fermentis are less easy to deal with, there's a bunch of historic breweries leaving amazing yeast in empty casks behind every pub, one of the world's greatest yeast banks in Norwich and bottles from around the world are readily available. If they were starting from scratch, why use WL/Wyeast when there's a lot of other sources for DIY?

I don't really follow the wine side, but MJ have an extensive selection of dried wine yeasts. I suspect they track the Gervin wine yeasts made by Munton but I don't know. Lallemand are very strong on wine yeasts, Fermentis haven't been big on them in the past but are getting into them.

If MJ dealt extensively with Fermentis, it would be really easy to repackage K-97 but MJ don't offer a kolsch yeast (CML initially had the same range as MJ but have now got a kolsch yeast from Germany or Poland I think). So that in itself suggests the first assumption should not be Fermentis.

OTOH, the range in general does cross-reference fairly well to the Lallemand range, if you ignore some of the names. I wonder if that renaming of a couple of years ago represented switching to the Munton version of Nottingham, Windsor etc when they started doing the wine strains? I've not really paid attention. Munton are cheap but don't do a fulll range eg they don't do saison yeast.

So I'd think first in terms of Lallemand, and also think about trying to squeeze in things like Coopers and Mauri, although I've never used the latter. But how does Coopers compare to eg M36?
 

Latest posts

Top