Mangrove Jack West Coast so slow.

[beerkench]

Thought I would give something else a chance other than the US-05 I usually use for Pales/IPA's so tried out Mangrove Jack's M44 West Coast Ale.
A 1.050-1.055, 6 gallon batch usually gets going strong within 12 hours with 1 packet of US-05, but this M44 took around 24 hours to start and has still not taken off really violently (judging by the airlock that is) 3 days after brew day. What's going on? Has anybody else used it? Did I under pitch?


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[Justdrumin]

Yeah, it lags BIG time. It's a great yeast though! My APA came out great with it.

Edit: Have you checked the gravity? It's not uncommon to not have any airlock activity and still be fermenting.

 

[beerkench]

Yeah, it lags BIG time. It's a great yeast though! My APA came out great with it.

Edit: Have you checked the gravity? It's not uncommon to not have any airlock activity and still be fermenting.

Haven't checked the gravity but I know from the temperature that it's slow.



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[stpug]

I've used it several times and it's a fantastic yeast IMO (one of the few good ones MJ makes; Burton Union is another). Unfortunately, if I recall correctly from a thread here on HBT, the cell count provided in the MJ yeasts is about half (100B) of a normal dry yeast sachet. This would explain the longer lag time. I've had long lag times from every MJ yeast I've used and I believe it's due to a low cell count. On the bright side, it did not seem to negatively affect the resulting beer AND if you harvest the yeast cake then you can repitch proper amounts into successive batches to get the normal/usual/expected lag times.

If I were to use a dry sachet of MJ yeast again I would actually do contrary to popular advice and make a starter with it assuming 100B in the sachet for the calculator.

Don't worry, I suspect your beer will come out just fine!

 

[beerkench]

Just found this on the website:

EXCEPTION RECOMMENDATION
Ales of original
gravity over 1.050

Number of Sachets to Use
Use 2 x 10g packets
per 6.6 US Gal (25L)

Guess I should have used 2 packs. Like I said though in my OP, I've never needed to use 2 packs of US-05.
I hope you're right ST PUG, hopefully it won't affect the result negatively.

 

[Justdrumin]

I pitched one pack in my APA and as I stated in my post, it came out fantastic!! I didn't know about the cell count though. I generally make starters whenever I need to build cell count. So I just make a starter as usual and I've never had issues with it. I've also used their bohemian lager and made a huge gallon starter. That beer took off in less than 12 hours. It was one of the most clean, crisp, and clear lagers I've ever made. I washed it and I now have a few mason jars in my keezer ready to use.

 

[dpr21081]

I have just last night pitched M44 into a brown Ale = 1.054x 32 lt.
I before pitching was snooping for a good pitch temperature and was alarmed/ pre-warned about potential lag time ...something I hate!!
So I boiled up a starter BUT my wort was cooled now to 26-28C and I didn't want to leave it sitting around till a starter was produced. Thus I aerated really thoroughly..shaking the sealed fermenter before opening up and adding yeast. No re hydration ...more hygienic and less FAN washing? 2 packets used. Airlock started bubbling within a couple of hours and was still bubbling in the morning. So my experience is that M44 goes off like a cracker lol..so ! perhaps a warmer pitch temperature than used for fermenting...heavy aeration using sterile air inside a 60Lt fermenter -or oxygenation off course...plus over-pitching slightly in a wort that has yeast nutrient in it. Cheers Dave

 

[Steveruch]

The one time that I tried this yeast it was slow to start, so back to S-05 for me.

 

[dpr21081]

Fair enough too. I guess I am bored with US 05 but I like the convenience and pricing that dry yeasts offer.See what this beer turns out like, lol but its performing very well as I write. I should emphasize that I pitched it 8C warmer than I would normally after reading the posts...and I shook the air in, obsessively almost too! I used Simcoe and Cascade hops at the end with Magnum for bittering. Hopefully it will be OK...I have never made an American Brown before and actually don't brew too many US 05 yeasted type beers these days...brewing boring Aussie lagers with Pride Of Ringwood lol Cheers Dave

 

[Toga]

I gave this yeast a shot a couple times in both a pale ale and an IPA. Long lag times and not as clean as other west coast ale yeast strains. The IPA was fermented at 60F had odd belgian esters almost like they packaged the wrong yeast in the packet. After trying a few varieties of the mangrove jacks yeast I gave up on them. I too was looking for an alternative to the current dry yeast strains and was hopeful. Their M02 cider yeast is the best of the varieties I have tried. The M07 English ale yeast was decent as was their newcastle strain which I think has been renamed.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

M44 holds my personal record for longest lag time - 84 hours!

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=589510

Even on that brew, though, the results were excellent. I still like my good ol' 05 for clean, dry APAs.and IPAs but M44 seems to bring out the hop flavors and doesn't dry out the beer quite as much.

 

[C-Rider]

Sounds like something to try for my West Coast Ales. Don't care about slow starts, I'm in no rush and shoots great to limit blow offs. LOL

 

[Weezy]

Low cell count or not, full packs still lag big time on 3 gallon batches.

 

[MuddyCreek]

I really like the MJ West Coast yeast. In fact we've used it for some things at the brewery. However they don't service commercial breweries anymore so we've moved over to White Labs for pretty much everything.

However, the West Coast, British Ale and Bavarian yeast from MJ is pretty nice. I can't say I love the workhorse too much though. Just my personal opinion.

Also, I tend to ferment on the cool side so lag time is a fairly significant factor.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

Muddy, I saw on your brewery thread that you had swapped out yeasts. I didn't realize it was MJ. That seems really short sighted of them to drop their commercial clients. So what are some of your WLP favorites?

 

[nobadays]

I like this yeast but the last 2 IPAs I used it on - both with O.G. of around 1.072 - stalled at about 1.020 +/- a couple of points. Tried raising temps, swirling fermenter with no results.... dropped in dry hops and away they both went (second batch I only use half the dry hops because I suspected it would start again). Both of these batches ended up finishing in the 1.012-1.014 range.

Fermented reallly clean but as mentioned doesn't clear up as well as US-05. I'm back to US- 05 for my go-to yeast for IPASs and Pales.

 

[dpr21081]

10 days into fermenting with M44....(also) stalled at 1.020...hopefully it will "start up" again aka Nobadays (posting above). Doesn't seem to be fermenting very cleanly either, on recent samples...but in fairness its early days....
notwithstanding...
US 05 starting to sound like a good idea! lol

Further, I have also purchased the Workhorse yeast and not sure what beer it would suit after Muddy Creek's mention.

 

[nobadays]

Ouch.... shouldn't have brought up the "stalling" didn't mean to pass that on! Both beers I used M44 on were hop forward IPAs and I will say this yeast really accentuates the citrus notes, YMMV. Made for nice beer but.... I found it doesn't clean up nearly as well as US-05. Even after 21 days in the fermenter it took gelatin + cold crashing to get bright clean beer. That said, the second batch I left cloudy and just tapped it after 48 hurs in the keg and oh what a hop bomb! The yeast had pretty well dropped out but didn't take the hops with them.

 

[dpr21081]

Lol Nobadays...all good...beer has dropped to 1.015...but samples so far remind me of Windsor yeast...(bad memories!)...so far as cloudiness etc (not sweetness fortunately)....so I will take your tip and use gelatin , cold crashing and time/patience to clear the beer. Cheers

 

[dpr21081]

further to my post on M44...I am pleased to report that the final product is fantastic...much better than US 05 and WYeast 1056...most impressed

 

[nobadays]

Funny.... I just brewed another hoppy IPA and sense I had two packets of M44 I rehydrated it and pitched it. Took off overnight but we will see if it stalls again. I find if I throw a few hops in there it will take off again so that's what I'm planning. Right now enjoying some hiking around Sedona AZ!

Cheers!

 

[NorthwestBrewman2013]

I would agree with the slow lag time. If you want a solid yeast that will beast through a 1065 OG wort...use their Belgian strain. I did a Saison with M27 and it had 97% attenuation. One of the driest, crisp, and fruity Saisons I've made. Excellent option to a liquid Belgian strain.

 

[nobadays]

NorthwestBrewman2013.... Might have to try that, but... the M44 does accentuate the citrus in the hops... agree with what dpr21081 has said,

"I am pleased to report that the final product is fantastic...much better than US 05 and WYeast 1056"

I've never used 1056 on an IPA but US-05 is my house strain and though I'm not likely to change anytime soon...M44 does produce a very nice beer.

Cheers!

 

[AlpacaBrew]

I had 2 bad batches with US 05 and gave the M44 a shot. Just love M44 and will continue using it.

 

[derekcw83]

I used 05 for the last few years consistently. But got tired of having to either cold crash or wait forever for the beer to clear. Tried m44 because of similar attenuation but better flocculation and sedimentation. My first beer with m44 has been my best beer to date since starting brewing 3 years ago. If it takes a day to get started I'm fine with that but so far I've only noticed a couple extra hours lag time.

 

[nobadays]

I thought my "stalling" issues with M44 were over.... So brewed a 1.070 OG IPA with an expected FG of 1.017, pitched with 2 packets of rehydrated M44. It took off by the next morning and was vigorous for several days. 5 days in it had slowed so took a reading - 1.020. Warmed the fermenter up to 68 and still seeing the odd bubble so waited 2 more days, this morning still 1.020 and the "floater" in the airlock hasn't risen since drawing the sample 30 minutes ago. EDIT-as I was typing the last words the "floater" popped up against the lid... apparently it is still active... no idea why the SG isn't dropping?? (Still gonna throw in some hops!)

So... in the past I have learned that if I throw in the dry hops - or some of the dry hops it will take off again. This has worked twice before so I don't think it was an anomaly. I will weigh out about half the dry hops, bag and drop them in there and see where it goes in 3-4 days.

Cheers!

 

[nobadays]

So this morning the "floater" in the airlock was resting not floating and no bubbles. Weighed out and bagged up half of the dry hops and threw them in... laid some CO2 on the to maybe displace some of the O2 I let in. Emptied the trub ball (Fastferment fermenter) and re-opened the valve to let a little O2 in -

Here it is 10 hours later and the airlock is faithfully bubbling at about 1 bubble every 10-15 seconds. I fully expect this beer to finish at or below the expected 1.017 in another 3-4 days. Why the dry hops kick this yeast back off I don't know but this will be the third time thus has worked (if it does indeed attenuate more).

Cheers!

 

[nobadays]

A little update... The 25th is when I put in half the dry hops (not sure why the post reads 26th?) by the evening of the 26th the SG had fallen to 1.017 and bubbling had stopped. Checked SG the morning of the 28th and still at 1.017 - which was my target FG - so dropped in the full load of dry hops, 2oz Simcoe, 1.5oz Mosaic and .5oz Amarillo. I have seen a bubble or two in the airlock this morning, the 29th but nothing like when I dry hopped it on the 25th. Will it attenuate a little more? Maybe but I doubt more than a point or two.

Beer smells and tastes great even with just the half dry hop shot...can't wait till it's done and kegged...but I will!

Cheers!

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I mentioned before (post #11) that M44 holds my personal record of an 84 hour lag time. Just brewed a DIPA (OG 1.079) with it last week. Krausen within 12 hours and FG 1.014 in 8 days. I've given up trying to second guess yeast

 

[nobadays]

Yep go figure. This beer finished at 1.017 right where it was supposed to. Fast to start and cleaned up well. I guess I will just have to continue using M44 for this IPA.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I still use US-05 for a lot of brews and most of my IPAs and APAs but I sometimes like that M44 isn't as "clean" as the 05. Even thought it's called "West Coast", I tend to like it for NEIPAs.