Malts and their country of origin

[brewuuhu]

As I'm figuring out the recipe for my next brew (a Belgian Dark Strong Ale, Gulden Draak clone), I'm seeing a lot of malts with the specific countries they're produced in (German wheat, Belgian pilsner, American pale 2 row). I only got a couple of all-grain brews under my belt so far, so I don't have the experience yet to know the exact differences between e.g. Belgian pilsner and German pilsner malt. Are there really big differences or are they pretty much interchangeable?

In other words, can I just get the easily available malts (Viking Malt in my case, I live in Finland) or should I go the extra mile (and $) to really get Belgian pilsner and German crystal etc?

Thanks!


P.S. The recipe from Clone Brews I'm basing my beer on:

9# Belgian 2 row pilsner malt
4# Belgian 2 row pale malt
1# German wheat malt
14 oz. German 65L crystal malt
4 oz. Belgian aromatic malt
3 oz. Belgian Cara-Munich malt
2 oz. Belgian biscuit malt

Mash @ 150 for 90 min.

add .5# Belgian clear candi sugar @ 90 min.
65HBU Brewers gold @ 90 min.

.25 oz Styrian Golden @ 15 min
1 tsp Irish moss @ 15 min

1st choice: Wyeast's 1388 Belgian strong ale yeast
2nd choice: Wteast's 3787 Trappist high gravity yeast

Primary for 2 weeks and secondary for 8 weeks. Best after 6 months in the bottle.

For Mini-mash recipe mash 2.5# Belgian 2 row pale malt and specialty grains (last 4 listed above) at 150 for 90 min. Add 8.5# extra light DME and 1# wheat DME at beginning of boil.

 

[Barley_Bob]

You can find the differences between these grains if you look around, and there are subtle differences...

With that said, they're pretty well interchangeable. As long as you're buying quality malt, you're going to be okay. The real reason to buy Belgian pilsner over German pilsner, for example, is for authenticity. You're going to come closer to the real Gulden Draak by using the same malt the brewery is using.

Unless you're doing a clone or trying to match a specific style, you can have a lot of fun by experimenting with the different regional malt varieties. For example, I overwhelmingly prefer German wheat malt, and I buy it exclusively. One fun alternative might be to take a crack at your Gulden Draak clone using German pilsner and pale malt, just to see how it does differ. It will be different, however, and you certainly won't be able to call it a clone. The same will be true using Viking malt.

I don't know about Finland, but in America, the price difference between these malts is just a matter of a few cents per pound, and I do think it's worth it find the best choice.

 

[Lefou]

I was going nuts trying to figure this out for myself recently, then realized it wasn't so hard a choice in basic ingredients.
There are quite a few malted grain charts available on the Web showing how the malted grains compare by maker and style. In the US, there are lots of choices.
I typically use this reference, there are more.
http://www.brew.is/files/malt.html

My shop has US, German, and UK products available. If I want a German style, I will get Weyermann malt, Hallertau hops, and a German lager yeast. If I want an American-style version of the same beer, I might choose a US hop and US-05 ale yeast, for example.

It all depends on your personal taste.
As far as making an identical clone brew, you may get very close but there will be subtle differences. I buy the same brands of beer from time to time and can tell differences, it can vary from lot to lot.

 

[brewuuhu]

Thanks, this kinda confirms what I figured. Subtle differences, and I'll learn them as I go along and brew more. I guess I'll go the extra mile and try to make this Gulden Draak as Belgian as I can.

Thanks for the chart also, these can be quite useful, especially with all the different brand malt names these malters come up with.

 

[Kent88]

I've been wondering about this too. I've been brewing Milk Stouts with MCI Stout Malt, but that was mostly because I heard that it gets better efficiency. Sometimes there is a reason beyond subtle flavors. I also brewed with Kolsch Malt, and I could see someone wanting to use that instead of pils or munich/vienna malts because it is somewhere in the middle of all those. Though I'm not sure if that malt is actually something of a blend.

It really is worth it to test out the different malts as best you can. Even someone like me, who struggles to describe how things taste, I've made SMaSH beers with Kolsch, Munich, and Vienna malts, keeping their gravities as similar as possible, using the same hops while targeting the same IBUs, and trying to use similar yeasts, I feel like I now have a better idea what each malt is going to bring to a brew.

Good luck with your BDSA, I'm planning on brewing one myself, hopefully sooner than later.

 

[brewuuhu]

Yea I agree, would be nice to test some different malts in similar beers. Problem is, I'd like to do the same stuff with different hops, and especially different yeasts... I guess I got plenty of brewing to do

 

[IslandLizard]

There will be more and larger differences between your homebrew and the real beer because of recipe inaccuracies and process variations than due to malt substitutions. I'd use whatever you can get locally, maybe trying to get "Belgian" malts wherever possible, but not sweat it, if you can't.

Most of the Clone Book recipes are not that close to the real beers'.

You can easily make your own clear "candi syrup" too, even up to D-90. Darker than that is almost impossible without specialized equipment and patience.

 

[bucketnative]

For me, it was eye opening to taste the grains at the homebrew store. There is, in my opinion, a huge difference in taste between US (Briess) and German (Weyerman) pilsner malts. That taste came through big time in a Kolsch recipe where I compared them side by side.

So try tasting the grains, and see what appeals to you. Then see if that flavor carries through to the final product.

 

[IslandLizard]

For me, it was eye opening to taste the grains at the homebrew store. There is, in my opinion, a huge difference in taste between US (Briess) and German (Weyerman) pilsner malts. That taste came through big time in a Kolsch recipe where I compared them side by side.

So try tasting the grains, and see what appeals to you. Then see if that flavor carries through to the final product.

Of course there are very detectable differences among malts from different maltsters. A Kolsch doesn't have anywhere to hide them, so she will showcase everything you put in. But the stronger, bolder, more rustic ales get most of their (malt) characteristics from the specialty malts, process, and fermentation, less so from base malts of a similar variety. IOW, don't substitute a Pilsner with a Maris Otter, etc.

That said, when I brew British ales, for example, I use British base malts, crystal, and chocolate (malt). But I don't hesitate to use American flaked wheat (not torrified wheat) and German dark roasts (Carafa Special).

Let me rephrase some of what I said in my previous post. If your recipe and process are spot on you should be able to taste the difference between using German and Belgian malts when compared to the original beer.

I don't think the Clone Book recipes are exact replicas of the beers they try to clone. So you may not get that close of a clone, but it could be even better. Recipe age is another factor. Breweries change their recipes, ingredients, and process. For example look at Boulevard's Tank 7, the recipes are all over the place, even the ones sent by the brewmasters.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I don't think the Clone Book recipes are exact replicas of the beers they try to clone. So you may not get that close of a clone, but it could be even better. Recipe age is another factor. Breweries change their recipes, ingredients, and process. For example look at Boulevard's Tank 7, the recipes are all over the place, even the ones sent by the brewmasters.

I think a lot of clone book recipes are trying to get as close as possible to the original but with the expectation that the homebrewer will fall short. And so they change the recipe to try to get more flavor from other components.

For example, the clones of the trapist beers have more crystal and adjuncts than the real breweries use, and I think that's to squeeze in some extra flavor where the homebrewer's processes and yeast fall short. As I've gotten better at making these brews, I've found I need to dial back the extras because I'm already coming closer.

Anyway, my point is that I think the clones are often intentionally not exact, and it's something to be mindful of.

 

[IslandLizard]

@Barley_Bob I never thought of them being intentionally inexact. That really confuses the issue.

Most clone books are bought by unaware, beginning brewers, hoping to clone one of their favorites or even something challenging. But the techniques and knowledge required to brew such a clone that resembles the original are often very advanced.

To the OP, I would look around here on HBT (or elsewhere) for a "clone" recipe thread of Gulden Draak, just for reference. There maybe some pointers. It's not an easy beer to brew since the OG is very high, as is the alcohol produced. It needs pure oxygen at pitching time to make the yeast happy and preventing it from stalling well short of the target gravity.

Google search:
site:homebrewtalk.com gulden draak

Coincidentally I tasted Gulden Draak 2 weeks ago when my favorite bar had it on tap. That beer is a wonderful experience!

 

[brewuuhu]

So try tasting the grains, and see what appeals to you. Then see if that flavor carries through to the final product.

I've tasted some of the grains I've used so far, but seems hard to translate to actual flavors in beers. I'll just taste more along the way!

 

[brewuuhu]

I don't think the Clone Book recipes are exact replicas of the beers they try to clone. So you may not get that close of a clone, but it could be even better. Recipe age is another factor. Breweries change their recipes, ingredients, and process. For example look at Boulevard's Tank 7, the recipes are all over the place, even the ones sent by the brewmasters.

I agree with you guys that such clone recipes probably differ a lot from how the actual brewers it do. I very much doubt the Belgian brewers using that high amount of specialty malts. I wanna keep it simple and stick to mostly the base malts and let the yeasts do the work for this beer, and I guess I might as well get the real Belgian malts then.

 

[bucketnative]

I've tasted some of the grains I've used so far, but seems hard to translate to actual flavors in beers. I'll just taste more along the way!

As Island Lizard said, in a Kolsch or something bare bones like that, you will notice the difference. IF it is a beer with a lot of specialty grains, I agree with Island Lizard, that the base malt will not make as big a difference.

 

[brewuuhu]

@Barley_Bob I never thought of them being intentionally inexact. That really confuses the issue.

Most clone books are bought by unaware, beginning brewers, hoping to clone one of their favorites or even something challenging. But the techniques and knowledge required to brew such a clone that resembles the original are often very advanced.

To the OP, I would look around here on HBT (or elsewhere) for a "clone" recipe thread of Gulden Draak, just for reference. There maybe some pointers. It's not an easy beer to brew since the OG is very high, as is the alcohol produced. It needs pure oxygen at pitching time to make the yeast happy and preventing it from stalling well short of the target gravity.

Google search:
site:homebrewtalk.com gulden draak

Coincidentally I tasted Gulden Draak 2 weeks ago when my favorite bar had it on tap. That beer is a wonderful experience!

Thanks for the tips, I definitely did not just copy the one recipe from the Clone brews book, I also looked around on the web. There seems to be 1 recipe on HBT forums too.

I actually have a lower gravity, simple Belgian brewing right now, and plan to use the (happy & healthy) yeastcake (wy 3787) from that brew for this heavier beer.

Gulden Draak is definitely amazing. I used to live in Netherlands very close to Belgium where it was easy to find. Now here in Finland it's a bit harder to come buy (and 3x+ as expensive...) so worth a shot to try and brew it myself! Or at least something similar

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks for the tips, I definitely did not just copy the one recipe from the Clone brews book, I also looked around on the web. There seems to be 1 recipe on HBT forums too.

I actually have a lower gravity, simple Belgian brewing right now, and plan to use the (happy & healthy) yeastcake (wy 3787) from that brew for this heavier beer.

Gulden Draak is definitely amazing. I used to live in Netherlands very close to Belgium where it was easy to find. Now here in Finland it's a bit harder to come buy (and 3x+ as expensive...) so worth a shot to try and brew it myself! Or at least something similar

Sounds like a plan!

Our brew club does a clone brew each year, and between 7 and 15 brewers, many of them very skilled and accomplished, with years of homebrewing experience, give it a shot.

Last year we did a Pauwel Kwak clone. We had a few bottles of the real beer for calibration and comparison. No-one nailed it exactly, some were in the ballpark, but I would not call it cloned. Yes, all 9 entries were great tasting Belgian Golden Strongs, each with their own character. I had carefully researched existing recipes and hints and ended up brewing 2 different recipes, and although very enjoyable in their own way, there was no comparison to the real one.

When you look around here, there are many that claim "it is spot on" when they brewed a posted clone recipe. I'm willing to bet most of them must be taste deaf, especially when there are 2 or more quite different interpretations posted and they all claim the same fame.

I have yet to taste an exact clone of anything. And even the breweries themselves experience variations from year to year (crops) and possibly from batch to batch. We're dealing with organic products here and fermentation. On a homebrew scale those variations are 10-fold more and larger.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Island Lizard is my spirit animal.

 

[brewuuhu]

Damn Pauwel Kwak is another one of those great sweet strong Belgian beers I miss here..

It's good to hear some fresh, opposing opinion. It's true that these forums are filled with recipes for clones that are 'spot on'. Would make new brewers a bit too excited thinking they can remake complex beers themselves with homebrew equipment, which seems pretty unlikely. I always reckoned that it might not be the real deal, but a good place to start and can turn out to be a great beer nonetheless.

Let's see how this one will turn out without too much speciality malts, just some dark kandijsugar for the color.