Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

[wongjau]

He said "a little alcohol" because that's the beginning of fermentation vs what had been up to that point merely saccharification.

Fridge is less likely to work since the mold needs higher temps to produce sugar unless you get 100% conversion at high temp as a 1st step (I drew a diagram of how you could do this earlier in the thread, but haven't done the setup yet).

His process is similar to mine, but I go higher in temps the first 24-48 hours. Koji A. oryzae wants 96 ideally for max sugar production. The lower you are below that, the higher your protein:sugar ratio will be.

Yep!

I suspect the temps were too cold for his yeast to get past the lag/log phase of growth.



Not necessary to have 100% conversion for rice wine. It is different than typical beer/wine/cider fermentation.

It is a parallel fermentation, solid state initially. The yeast converts the sugars as they are produced by the Rhizo. The gradual fermentation allows a higher final alcohol level.

There has to be enough sugar, oxygen, and heat for yeast to take off. This is like building a starter when brewing beer.

Then the large yeast population can continue with the fermentation as the rice gets slowly converted to sugar. This is like syruped ferment for wines.

That's why traditionally, the rice steaming process is important for creating separate grains that facilitate access to the Rhizo mycelia and amylase.

 

[wongjau]

If there is a lot of fungal activity and sugars, the yeast will function properly for alcohol production; Why will i get little alcohol?

See the diagram in my previous post. Most likely yeast growth is too early in the cycle.

If i am letting the sugars be formed with high temp, and put in a yeast that ferments at low temp, then will it not ferment in the fridge for proper fermentation?

You still need to build up the yeast population first. When brewing lagers for example, you still have to build up a starter, and after pitching, it takes a while for the entire ferment to get going.

 

[wongjau]

Mold is normal. It's in the "yeast" ball and is responsible for converting the rice starch to sugar so the yeast can eat it. Some people never see the mold fuzz or spore. Theories have been suggested saying higher water content, warmer temperature, and even lack of oxygen will make it spore. I have no idea. All I know is every batch I've ever made has visible mold.

Yes normal. The white fuzz is the mycelia, it's kind of like the roots of a plant. It grows everywhere, including into the rice grains. The fuzz contains the enzymes and transports food.

You get spores when the mold "thinks" conditions are not so good for growth. It creates spores so that they can spread to a better environment. That's typical behavior in nature.

If the fuzz gets too tall, starts to dry out, runs low on food, or experiences whatever other inhospitable conditions, it makes the last ditch effort to preserve itself by sporulating.

So the upshot is, keep it oxygenated, hydrated, and exposed to food. Just stir the rice/mold.

Also, the less spores the better. When fermenting other foods with Aspergillus and Rhizopus, the spores will give a bitter flavor.

4 days isn't necessarily long enough to see liquefaction, but generally you should cool the rice to room temperature before adding the "yeast" ball.

Keep your initial temps at 85F. When I do that, I get liquid up to 80% of the rice level in <48 hours.

 

[wongjau]

From Handbook of Food Science, Technology, and Engineering - Volume 4, Chapter 173 Chinese Wines - Jiu, page 28-29
[...]Post-fermentation. About seven days after the loading of “gang,” the “gangs” are filled up and sealed. This procedure is to reduce the contact with air, continue the post-fermentation to produce more alcohol and increase the quality of “jiu mo.” The complete fermentation process takes 20–30 days and the alcohol content is 15 v% or above. The mash is then used as “jiu mo.”
“Sprinkled rice jiu mo” can also be used as a commercial product for direct consumption. This is commonly called “Kuai (rapid) jiu.” However, the product flavor is fairly simple."

"Jiu mo" means "wine mother", which is basically your starter.

They are saying that you can use it for wine after 20-30 days.

But that would like making a yeast starter for your beer, leaving it out for 2 weeks, then drinking it instead of making beer with it!

 

[ethics_gradient]

That setup should work. Make sure the bucket is well above the water line.

No need to stir. Line the bucket with parchment paper. Layer the rice about 2-3 inches thick.

Steam is nice because you don't need to play around with water/rice ratios. Just soak overnight and steam. Comes out perfect every time.

Better for fermenting too because the consistent and discrete grains break down in a controlled way to gradually feed the rhizopus, lactobacillus, and yeast.

Thank you, very helpful!

I am also going to use your idea of a cooler + immersion heater (in my case just an aquarium heater). My apartment is probably too cold for most fermentation and I've got a limited amount of space in my fermentation chamber.

 

[wongjau]

Thank you, very helpful!

I am also going to use your idea of a cooler + immersion heater (in my case just an aquarium heater). My apartment is probably too cold for most fermentation and I've got a limited amount of space in my fermentation chamber.

That would work.

At one point, I floated a 1 gallon container of rice and yeast in a 5 gallon bucket with an aquarium heater.

Just be careful of stuck heaters.

 

[wongjau]

Here's a good description of rice wine production from Fred Eckhardt's Sake (USA) book.

Good info on yeast, rice, and water ratios and temps.

Actual Shao Xing jiu production begins in early winter by making a starter. Polished glutinous rice is washed and soaked in water for 36-40 hours, and then steamed (1-hour) and cooled. Today regular short grain rice and lightly crushed wheat are also added. The rice is cooled by pouring cold water over it until it cools to about 85°F/30°C. The water is drained off and the rice transferred to wide-mouth fermenting jars. At this point the jiu niang/jiu men (yeast) balls are crushed and added to the cooled steamed rice to form &#8220;mother of jiu" (Japanese &#8220;moto"). The jiu niang is added (1 volume jiu niang:100 volumes rice or 1 ball:liter). The ratios of water, rice and jiu niang are volumetric. The mixture (about 160 liters of rice and 1.6 liters jiu niang) is packed into the jars and a hollow is formed in their center. In about 48-hours the rice grains gradually liquefy, lose their stickiness, and form a sweet-tasting liquor in the center.

The actual jiu production begins with adding 90 liters of water and 40 liters of crushed jiu niang to the sweet liquor. This is stirred (kai-ba: &#8220;opening with a paddle") three to six times a day for the next three or four days. Total ferment time for this, the primary ferment, is about two weeks. This process makes ordinary jiu (about 10- 11% alcohol), but the Shao Xing Iiu is more like sake in strength and procedure. About 180 liters of polished glutinous rice is steeped (36-40 hours) and steamed (1-hour). This is then added to 150 liters of cold water in jars, after which 40 liters of crushed leaven (jiu niang) is added, and then the above &#8220;mother&#8221; is added to the ferment, which is carried on at 86°F/30°C, and then cooled later. The mixture is stirred at regular intervals, six times a day at first and once or twice later, for a total of one week After 70-80 days total, the ferment is &#64257;nished. The raw jiu is pressed and settled again, and then pressed once more to separate the clear liquor, which is then heated to 120-140°F/50-60°C, and skimmed (to remove precipitated protein). The re&#64257;ned jiu is then brought to the beginnings of a boil, when it is instantly separated and cooled in special porcelain-earthenware jars, which are sealed with a mixture of porous clay and lotus leaves to allow the very slow entry of minute quantities of air. This oxidation process allows a delicate, smoky, sherry-like &#64258;avor to develop. The sealed containers are allowed to age for one to five years or longer.

 

[ethics_gradient]

That would work.

At one point, I floated a 1 gallon container of rice and yeast in a 5 gallon bucket with an aquarium heater.

Just be careful of stuck heaters.

Will do! This one is pretty reliable, I normally use it for keeping beer at temp (sanitised and immersed directly in the beer, with cord passing through a sealed bung). The threads at the top make it a bit annoying to clean, and I want to warm the whole ferm chamber now that I've added the extra shelf, so I plan to replace it with reptile heating cord, and free it up for other uses, like keeping rice wine going.

It's been almost a week for mine. Of the 4 batches, only the Angel Rice Leaven + glutinous rice has really taken off. There is a tiny bit of liquid in the yeast ball + glutinous, and both of the jasmine rice containers show no signs of liquification. My last batch was similar to the latter (eventually liquifying partially around week 2-3, results unsatisfying).

I'm guessing it was too dry, should I add additional water at this point? And possibly additional ARL/yeast ball?

 

[wongjau]

Additional water shouldn't be necessary just to get saccharification and liquification.

The fungus should take care of that as long as it hasn't been overheated, temps are good, rice has been soaked/cooked properly, and fermentation aerated.

For solidstate fermentation, a waterbath probably works better for temp control compared to putting the heater directly into the rice.

Glutinous rice has the most amylopectin. Jasmine rice has less. And regular rice has even less. The amount and rate of liquid production will be proportional to amylopectin level.

Adding more yeast balls or ARL shouldn't hurt, and might help.

If you just sprinkle on top and stir it in just a little, you can give the fungus good exposure to the rice and oxygen to help it grow.

What was your overall procedure for making your batches? Maybe there is something to target for adjustment.

 

[sarthak]

I was under the impression that this wine should be made at low temp and that locals make it only in winters.

There should be an instruction set pinned at the main page listing clear instructions about making this with yeast balls, ARL, adding yeast, temp range, different experiments etc. This thread is huge and a lot has been done for this wine; something like this should be done now.

 

[chonas]

Can make a new thread and pin or put in recipes section

 

[wongjau]

I was under the impression that this wine should be made at low temp and that locals make it only in winters.

From "Grandiose Survey [...]"

"3.5.2.1 Temperature Control During Main Fermentation
In ancient times, brewmasters made their rice wines during the cold months when the air and water is relatively free from contaminating microorganisms. Late November is the best time for brewing rice wines. In order to make rice wines during the warmer parts of a year, because of difficulty in controlling the mash's temperature, it was important to set the initial temperature of the main mash as low as possible. Usually the main mash's temperature was set according to the atmospheric temperature. The initial temperature should not exceed above 28 °C . Most breweries prefer to start fermentation in a range of 24-26 °C, in order to control the rate of fermentation, so the maximun temperature of the fermenting mash would be below 30-35°C.

Traditionally, the effective control of fermentation temperature was dependent on the stirring operating. It is especially important to choose the right moment for the first stirring. There were two operating procedures handed down from ancient times in Shaoxing. The most popular procedure accepted by the brewmasters in Shaoxing prefered to start the first stirring when the mash's temperature rise to above 35 °C, and this is called " First Stirring at a High Temperature". This procedure will result in quick fermentation of sugar to ethanol, and the yeasts become old and feeble. More sugar remaining in the main mash. Another operating procedure is characterized by firstly stirring the main mash when the fermentation temperature rises to about 30 °C, and alwasy the temperature is kept not to exceed 30 °C. This is called "First stirring at a Low Temperature". This procedure will result in more sugar being converted to ethanol in slow fermentation. Anyhow, after the first stirring, the mash's temperature drops down notably. During the main fermentation, intermittent stirring is done according to the mash's temperature and room temperature. Temperature control pattern is given in Table 5."

We have to consider the context in choosing winter for fermentation.

Aside from air/water quality effects in reducing contamination, and controlling temperature rise by balancing stirring against ambient temperature, we should consider scaling differences between our process and the original Chinese ones.

We are doing small scale batches. The original process(es) used fermenters that were 2 meters tall and 2 meters in diameter.

The surface to volume ratio of our fermenters are easily 36 times greater than theirs. Their heat dissipation rates were 2 orders of magnitude less than ours. So seasonal temperature was more critical for them.

One interesting method used the more heat tolerant Rhizopus oryzae for the initial higher temperatures of the seed mash, and Aspergillus oryzae for the main fermentation.

 

[wongjau]

Here's a documentary from Youku, the Chinese Youtube.

In Mandarin though.

http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XOTU0OTIzMTI

 

[sarthak]

Here's a documentary from Youku, the Chinese Youtube.



In Mandarin though.



http://v.youku.com/pad_show/id_XOTU0OTIzMTI

What can you speak about distilling rice wine? I saw a video doing that. They made wine from rice, but distilled at the end. Result was crystal clear wine, I don't know how it tasted through; didn't mention.

 

[wongjau]

What can you speak about distilling rice wine? I saw a video doing that. They made wine from rice, but distilled at the end. Result was crystal clear wine, I don't know how it tasted through; didn't mention.

Well, one of my grandfathers(born around 1890) went blind from drinking Chinese moonshine.

But here are the relevant sections from Grandiose Survey.

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-distilled-spirits.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-traditional-distiller.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-distillation-technoloty.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-spirit-production.html

 

[wongjau]

And here's the wiki on bai jiu.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baijiu

 

[sarthak]

Well, one of my grandfathers(born around 1890) went blind from drinking Chinese moonshine.

But here are the relevant sections from Grandiose Survey.

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-distilled-spirits.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-traditional-distiller.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-distillation-technoloty.html

http://www.spiritsoftheharvest.com/2014/03/chinese-alcohol-spirit-production.html

This one.

 

[wongjau]

This one.

Another one on bai jiu.

[ame]https://ww.youtube.com/watch?v=ns0VNNzVruY[/ame]

Shaoxing huang jiu. Check out the yeast at 8:50.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmj1BYpqTQ0[/ame]

Shaoxing jiu brewmaster(same as the youku one).

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-qbMzuYVoM[/ame]

And just for the hell of it, the fight scene on top of the wine jars from "Call of Heroes". Empty jars in storage, and ones filled with aging wine.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBnlVKOUw5c[/ame]

 

[pdxal]

What can you speak about distilling rice wine? I saw a video doing that. They made wine from rice, but distilled at the end. Result was crystal clear wine, I don't know how it tasted through; didn't mention.

There's a spirits company here making rice wine vodka. Didn't taste much different from any other vodka.

 

[Stealthcruiser]

There's a spirits company here making rice wine vodka. Didn't taste much different from any other vodka.

Pretty neutral , Huh.......

(I'll be here all week, )

 

[eigua]

@wongjau Wow! Thank you for posting so much great information! I'm going to have to go over all these posts a few times for everything to soak in. I take it you've been doing this many years. There are a whole lot of things I could be doing better in my process it seems which is evidenced by several failed batches recently. I was initially attracted to this rice wine because of how simple it was to make something drinkable compared to beer making which I failed at every time I tried. Now I see this can be every bit as deep as beer and wine making.

 

[wongjau]

@wongjau Wow! Thank you for posting so much great information! I'm going to have to go over all these posts a few times for everything to soak in. I take it you've been doing this many years. There are a whole lot of things I could be doing better in my process it seems which is evidenced by several failed batches recently. I was initially attracted to this rice wine because of how simple it was to make something drinkable compared to beer making which I failed at every time I tried. Now I see this can be every bit as deep as beer and wine making.

You're welcome, eigua. Hope it helps.

I used to brew beer, mead, and hard cider 20+ years ago. I started up again with a test batch of rice wine this past April.

I have a background in biology and chemistry, and work in engineering. I like to know about the science and tech of stuff and started researching the process.

I ran across this thread, read the whole thing, and saw some conflicting information. So figured to share what I had found so far.

I think the rice wine brewing is simple. It's different from beer and wine, so it can be confusing if we mix and match procedures, or if we are not clear on the rationale for the ancient methods.

The Wang Ah Niu brewmaster video is kind of funny. He reaches into the rice wine mash with his bare hand. He can do this because the low pH from the fungus and lactobacillus helps keep unwanted micro-organisms from taking over. For most beers, we don't want lactobacillus in the mix.

The original methods were more art than science. For example, the old manuscripts documented "armpit" temperature as a reference for proper growing temperature for the jiu qu. They also said the growing room had to have a thatched roof instead of tile; the reason being that tile roofs made the room too hot. Another requirement was that the room had to have a west facing entrance. I suspect that was due to wind direction and micro-organisms. A lot of superstitions can have a basis in science.

 

[Catt]

Sorry if I've missed it, but I've read a crapton on this topic.
But has anyone here in Australia made it? I can't find any yeast balls around me, any Asian type store I go to says they don't know what it is. The last one told me she'd get it in, she has people that make wine.
But then the next week I went in and she said she had no idea, and she only had this yeast:
http://www.priorityhealth.com.au/IA1620/Allied-High-Activity-Instant-Dry-Yeast-500g/pd.php
Which from what I can see is only for breads and such?
The shipping for them on ebay and such are at least $20 for one packet.

 

[wongjau]

I can't find any yeast balls around me, any Asian type store I go to says they don't know what it is.

Show them this pic. The Chinese characters under the words "dried yeast" say what they are.



The one on the left says "Shanghai wine cake balls".

The one on the right says "1st class red yeast rice".

 

[ethics_gradient]

Thank you again for all the helpful information, wongjau.

If anyone is interested in starting a new thread, I read through most of this one and typed up a few pages of notes, as well as made a spreadsheet of people's process/results (sort of, didn't track them throughout the thread, only if they talked about their process when they posted the results). I didn't use names, but included page numbers by information so it can be re-checked.

Sorry if I've missed it, but I've read a crapton on this topic.
But has anyone here in Australia made it? I can't find any yeast balls around me, any Asian type store I go to says they don't know what it is. The last one told me she'd get it in, she has people that make wine.
But then the next week I went in and she said she had no idea, and she only had this yeast:
http://www.priorityhealth.com.au/IA1620/Allied-High-Activity-Instant-Dry-Yeast-500g/pd.php
Which from what I can see is only for breads and such?
The shipping for them on ebay and such are at least $20 for one packet.

I'm in Australia, only one out of three shops that I've checked carries the rice balls. I think they were $3 for a pack of 10. I am finding I have better luck with the Angel Rice Leaven anyways, which you do need to order from China, but it's pretty cheap. It took ~ 3 weeks to arrive.

I have not been able to find red yeast rice *anywhere* in Australia, online or locally. I've shown a picture of the packaging to the local Asian grocers and they've said they used to carry it but don't have it in stock, didn't seem like they were re-ordering. I may get some put into my next order from the States; I find there are a lot of specialty things you just can't buy here.

 

[Catt]

I'm in Australia, only one out of three shops that I've checked carries the rice balls. I think they were $3 for a pack of 10. I am finding I have better luck with the Angel Rice Leaven anyways, which you do need to order from China, but it's pretty cheap. It took ~ 3 weeks to arrive.

Ahhh thanks!
Do you know if that is meant to be around the same 20%?
And from any seller? I found one on eBay with free shipping, for $12 USD.

And I'm even in the Sunny Coast of QLD. The closest place I think I might be able to find something is Brisbane. And I never go there.

Edit- And you make it the same? Let it sit 20ish days? Or do what the instructions say.

 

[Miraculix]

Let's see if I can find this yeast balls somewhere in London.

Interesting topic!

 

[ethics_gradient]

Ahhh thanks!
Do you know if that is meant to be around the same 20%?
And from any seller? I found one on eBay with free shipping, for $12 USD.

And I'm even in the Sunny Coast of QLD. The closest place I think I might be able to find something is Brisbane. And I never go there.

Edit- And you make it the same? Let it sit 20ish days? Or do what the instructions say.

That sounds like my seller (~US$12), they sell in quantities of 5, 10 or 15 packs?

I'm only on my second batch, but I think I'm going to try it after 3 weeks, which is coming up this weekend. First batch I let go for 4 weeks (probably too cold, got poor conversion and what tasted like a really strong lacto infection), current one is in my ferm chamber at 22C.

I threw out the jasmine rice batches this morning, had started to form black mould. I may try like wongjau said in the future (still have ~2kg of it) and accept the lower yield/different taste, but am probably going to buy a 20kg sack of glutinous rice assuming that this one comes out tasting good.

 

[BeeDeeEff]

I don't want to flood this thread with day-by-day pictures in multiple posts, but I'll be putting them all together in one composite image. So far haven't missed a day.

As for the clarity, all I ever did was whatever one else does, strain through a cloth. But then I let it re-settle a second time and a clear layer formed on top and I left everything else behind, which resulted in rather substantial losses (~30% liquid lost).

But here are days 0 through 5, you can see in some pocket liquid forming, but can really notice the volume drop in the container.

Activity slowed way down, and wasn't even able to been seen from the outside after two weeks. Based on how much liquid I was able to squeeze out and how it wasn't sweet I think it must've kept going. For those catching up I'm doing this with Cost-co long grain rice from a 50 lb bag with only rice balls, and no Angel Leven or external yeast.

Squeezed the solids through cheese cloth, left behind some liquid because I was squeezing for so long.

Now I plan to let this sit and clear, then siphon off the clear layer as I did before.

 

[brewit75]

Activity slowed way down, and wasn't even able to been seen from the outside after two weeks. Based on how much liquid I was able to squeeze out and how it wasn't sweet I think it must've kept going. For those catching up I'm doing this with Cost-co long grain rice from a 50 lb bag with only rice balls, and no Angel Leven or external yeast.

Squeezed the solids through cheese cloth, left behind some liquid because I was squeezing for so long.

Now I plan to let this sit and clear, then siphon off the clear layer as I did before.

How's it going?