Making Traditional rice Wine. Cheap, Fun, and Different

[trbig]

Yeah, it is not mentioned on the package. Mostly likely the yeast is sweet yeast.

The 'La' yeast can get high alcohol level, near 20%. So, the best way to know is the end result: the wine is 'dry' and not-sweet.

So what happens when the molds continue breaking down the starches into sugars after the 20% alc level has been reached? You can have the most powerful yeast on the market, but it can only stand alc levels to what it's designed. If there's sugars still left, you're going to get a sweet wine with a high level of alcohol. That's why you can have sweet meads even using champaign yeasts. Use more honey than the yeast can eat.

I believe what many are seeing here is very high alc content rice wine that is still very sweet. The yeast has reached it's max alcohol tolerance, but there's still lots of sugars left.

 

[jak1010]

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

 

[trbig]

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

A good question. Does the alcohol cause the mold to go dormant? Maybe the mold goes into high gear while the yeast is still idling on the line, and they stop together, but the mold made more sugar along the way?

Alcohol isn't really that good of a disinfectant, so my guess, just from seeing fairly regularly that all the rice has been converted to a mush ball, is that it laughs at 20% alcohol and keeps converting until there's no more starch to eat. Just my uneducated, slightly inebriated guess though..

 

[Leadgolem]

Really great to know that I've basically been using double the amount of ARL than I really need to. I can begin to scale it to what is needed. Thanks LG for an outstanding experiment and documentation to go along with it. In addition, your tasting notes are right on. I've been able to produce smooth, great tasting wine and now I'm looking forward to trying the vanilla bean idea.

If you decide to do further test batches, please share. I've got about 6 mason jars just begging me for tests. My next full scale gallon size batch will be ARL with Red Yeast Rice since the test batch worked out so well.

Oh, there shall definitely be more experiments. The initial one for the ARL ratio was just to establish an appropriate pitch rate for ARL. The next experiment I have planned is to do essentially a re-run of the grains experiment only with ARL. Though, I am planning on omitting both the wheat berries and the brown rice. Those were both abysmal failures.

I was wondering the same thing.

Unless, the molds that break down the rice die off due to the alcohol %. Once that happens, the sugar volume should level off right?

So the question in my mind becomes, what is the alcohol tolerance of the mold?

A good question. Does the alcohol cause the mold to go dormant? Maybe the mold goes into high gear while the yeast is still idling on the line, and they stop together, but the mold made more sugar along the way?

Alcohol isn't really that good of a disinfectant, so my guess, just from seeing fairly regularly that all the rice has been converted to a mush ball, is that it laughs at 20% alcohol and keeps converting until there's no more starch to eat. Just my uneducated, slightly inebriated guess though..

It should be possible to find out. I'll considering adding another experiment to my setup.

Basically, it would involve cooking the rice, letting it cool, Inoculating it, and then adding a 20% alcohol solution until you cover the rice. Granted, you will actually have a slightly lower alcohol solution as soon as the starch starts saccharification. Both from the sugar introduced and the water released from the rice. If the biological component of this process is unable to tolerate alcohol levels that high, very little conversion of the starch in the rice should occur. You should get some degree of conversion from leftover amylase enzyme present in your inoculation, but I doubt it would be significant.

I have data from other experiments that shows that the bug that is breaking down the starch is perfectly happy being submerged.

 

[jak1010]

Like Everclear and water? 1 part everclear and 3 parts water?

 

[Leadgolem]

Like Everclear and water? 1 part everclear and 3 parts water?

Yeah, pretty much. That ratio would give you a solution of 22.5% alcohol. So it should simulate a finished rice wines high side for alcohol tolerance. If the alcohol is going to shut down the saccharification, it should do so immediately.

 

[dgr]

Basically, it would involve cooking the rice, letting it cool, Inoculating it, and then adding a 20% alcohol solution until you cover the rice.

Another way would be to innoculate different percentages of alcohol, then taking the alcohol and try to mash some rice with it and testing for conversion. It's easier to determine that there is no amylase activity as opposed to some, very little, more or less.

You should get some degree of conversion from leftover amylase enzyme present in your inoculation, but I doubt it would be significant.

Why would you think that? When we make beer, we mash for an hour or so to get complete conversion. When we chew up our pasta, we do it for minutes. I suspect that the fungus produces amylase and there isn't anything in the fermenter that denatures the amylase so it just keeps converting the starch. But I really have no idea if this is actually what happens.

I have data from other experiments that shows that the bug that is breaking down the starch is perfectly happy being submerged.

Was the bug submerged completely before it had a chance to produce amylase.

I was chewing (see what i did there?) on my theory and did a little searching but didn't get too far into it. The first is a graph on saliva amylase activity vs. temperature. Don't discount the source as a poster later in the thread points to a peer reviewed dental publication that has the same information.

From the graph, it appears that amylase is active at lower than mashing or body temperatures and is actually more active at room temperature than at body temperature.

The second link is one of those, how'd I stumble on that google freebies. It talks about denaturing stabilization tests on Aspergillus oryzae alpha-amylase. It's only the abstract but read the last two words first. It would appear that alpha-amylase gets denatured at some rate at the listed alcohol percentage.

So if the fungus produces amylase, I think that amylase hangs around and keeps on doing it's thing for a long time. Instead of giving it an hour to convert the starch, we are giving it days and days. But like I said, I don't know what is really happening there.


http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

 

[Leadgolem]

Another way would be to innoculate different percentages of alcohol, then taking the alcohol and try to mash some rice with it and testing for conversion. It's easier to determine that there is no amylase activity as opposed to some, very little, more or less.

That would work too. The point being to expose the biological components of the process to an 20%ish solution of alcohol immediately.

Why would you think that? When we make beer, we mash for an hour or so to get complete conversion. When we chew up our pasta, we do it for minutes. I suspect that the fungus produces amylase and there isn't anything in the fermenter that denatures the amylase so it just keeps converting the starch. But I really have no idea if this is actually what happens.

I find it hard to believe that any process that propagates an organism that produces amylase would not have any residual amylase in it. Therefore, I would have to assume the presence of some amylase in the rice yeast balls and/or ARL. Some conversion would occur from that residual, but nothing like what would happen with an active biological process that continues to produce amylase.

Was the bug submerged completely before it had a chance to produce amylase.

Yes. The batch was actually a cooked mass of somewhat soupy red rice wine. That batch used both rice yeast balls and RYR. From my own observations, I do not believe the RYR contributes much to the saccharification process. It seems to act more to inhibit acid producing bacterial growth and to add certain flavor and color compounds. In addition, in sake production, fairly substantial amounts of water are added during the process. The initial rice portion has been inoculated while merely damp, but I rather doubt that you would get so much conversion if the aspergillus oryzae was have issues with the amount of water.

I was chewing (see what i did there?) on my theory and did a little searching but didn't get too far into it. The first is a graph on saliva amylase activity vs. temperature. Don't discount the source as a poster later in the thread points to a peer reviewed dental publication that has the same information.

From the graph, it appears that amylase is active at lower than mashing or body temperatures and is actually more active at room temperature than at body temperature.

The second link is one of those, how'd I stumble on that google freebies. It talks about denaturing stabilization tests on Aspergillus oryzae alpha-amylase. It's only the abstract but read the last two words first. It would appear that alpha-amylase gets denatured at some rate at the listed alcohol percentage.

So if the fungus produces amylase, I think that amylase hangs around and keeps on doing it's thing for a long time. Instead of giving it an hour to convert the starch, we are giving it days and days. But like I said, I don't know what is really happening there.


http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

That's a reasonable supposition. So, even if little to no saccharification is measured that may be due to the denaturing of the amylase. As opposed to the halting of a biological process.

Even with that possibility, I believe it's an experiment worth running.

I'm to tired to read those right now, I'll bookmark them for later.

 

[jak1010]

I posted a new thread in the Sake forum named "Yeast Trouble". Responses are appreciated.

 

[trbig]

I posted a new thread in the Sake forum named "Yeast Trouble". Responses are appreciated.

OK.. First, why are you in the sake forum asking rice wine questions? 2nd, why didn't you just post a link for lazy drunk people like me? lol.

 

[edds5p0]

I would be I the interested to see how the alcohol experiment goes. My biochem experience tells me that the ethanol will inhibit the activity of the yeast.

 

[trbig]

I would be I the interested to see how the alcohol experiment goes. My biochem experience tells me that the ethanol will inhibit the activity of the yeast.

We KNOW it will inhibit the yeast. That's not the question. Will it inhibit the mold from breaking down the rice starches into sugar? THAT is the question.

 

[Leadgolem]

If everybody is that interested, I'll add it to the roster of experiments for this weekend.

 

[Leadgolem]

http://www.chemicalforums.com/index.php?topic=61243.0
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1209773

Interesting links. I will admit that the second link is slightly confusing to me. It certainly implies that the stability of the amylase was increased. Using a stability rating relative to an 18% alcohol solution as a measurement of the stability. That certainly implies that alcohol tends to break down amylase.

However, the rest of the available information does not mention alcohol at all. Since it's specifically about aspergillus oryzae, and therefore probably about sake making, there simply may not have been a reason to do testing with higher alcohol concentrations.

Considering the general logic of the abstract, it seems odd that alcohol was mentioned at all. It seems out of place.

I'll also admit that my knowledge of chemistry is not adequate to the task of determining what an alcohol solution will do to the amylase.

All that being said, it still smells to me like an active biological process should still produce a significant degree of saccharification. While one inhibited by alcohol content should not. It would seem to me that if alcohol does denature amylase it probably doesn't do so immediately, especially if the other abstract is giving it a stability rating relative to an 18% alcohol solution. Therefore, if no amylase is being produced any residual will likely be denatured by the alcohol. That would leave rice that has only slightly converted. While, if amylase continues to be produced, saccharification should continue through the entire process.

 

[dgr]

I find it hard to believe that any process that propagates an organism that produces amylase would not have any residual amylase in it. Therefore, I would have to assume the presence of some amylase in the rice yeast balls and/or ARL. Some conversion would occur from that residual, but nothing like what would happen with an active biological process that continues to produce amylase.

Thank you for clarifying. I completely agree. There has to be some amylase in the yeast balls or ARL.

 

[dgr]

I think the first sentence in the abstract is missing a comma and should read, "... studied under the effect of heating, urea and some other denaturing agents." Then they list some tests and the denaturing agents, urea, heat and alcohol. As they were studying a percent change, I would surmise that the 18% number is a borderline amount.

I suspect the use of A oryzae amylase is that it is produced and purified in commercially available quantities. From what I could find, it's also cheap. Porcine amylase - $55 a mg 10 units/mg. A oryzae - $40 a gram 30 units/mg. So 3000 times cheaper?!?

I am unable to find any information on alcohol tolerance for amylase. There is some great stuff out there and this is a rabbit hole one could spend hours in. I found there appears to be more types of amylase than malts and some very technical studies of them. Who would have thought that spit would employ so many people?

Let us know how your experiments go. I may put together a couple of my own.

 

[FatDragon]

I'm in China and very interested in trying this. Mijiu (米&#37202 is a common semi-fermented breakfast porridge very similar to what you're doing here, but eaten rice and all after a couple days of fermentation so its alcohol content is minimal. While I haven't found yeast balls like this in stores here (nor have I looked much), Angel brand packaged mijiu yeast ("rice leaven" per the package) is readily available just about anywhere. Has anybody tried this for rice wine yet? Will it attenuate or is it likely to die before producing much alcohol? My other option is to get yeast balls online, but the shops all advertise them as mijiu yeast rather than wine yeast, so there's no real guarantee that they'll attenuate either.

 

[trbig]

I imagine that anything that will make Mijiu, will make rice wine. The only difference being time left to do it's work. And yes, the Angel Rice Leaven (ARL) apparently works just fine as well. Read back a few pages, and an experiment was just done on trying to figure out the best application rate for the ARL.

 

[sonofgrok]

I'm in China and very interested in trying this. Mijiu (米&#37202 is a common semi-fermented breakfast porridge very similar to what you're doing here, but eaten rice and all after a couple days of fermentation so its alcohol content is minimal. While I haven't found yeast balls like this in stores here (nor have I looked much), Angel brand packaged mijiu yeast ("rice leaven" per the package) is readily available just about anywhere. Has anybody tried this for rice wine yet? Will it attenuate or is it likely to die before producing much alcohol? My other option is to get yeast balls online, but the shops all advertise them as mijiu yeast rather than wine yeast, so there's no real guarantee that they'll attenuate either.

A lot of people here use Angel Rice Leaven for rice wine.

 

[dgr]

FatDragon, send a private message to durianpicker. He is in China. He posted some pictures of two different yeast balls he has used

 

[milsman2]

Update: 4 weeks in and most of the rice has turned to rice pudding. No seperation of liquid and rice but there is a TON of liquid in the fermenter. I am going to pour out into the wine bottle this weekend and hope for the best. Recently took a taste and it's wonderfully sweet, but not too much although it tasted a bit alcohol hot. Is this common?

 

[Baileisdad]

What ever happens to the guy trying to use potatoes instead of rice

 

[edds5p0]

I think the first sentence in the abstract is missing a comma and should read, "... studied under the effect of heating, urea and some other denaturing agents." Then they list some tests and the denaturing agents, urea, heat and alcohol. As they were studying a percent change, I would surmise that the 18% number is a borderline amount.

I suspect the use of A oryzae amylase is that it is produced and purified in commercially available quantities. From what I could find, it's also cheap. Porcine amylase - $55 a mg 10 units/mg. A oryzae - $40 a gram 30 units/mg. So 3000 times cheaper?!?

I am unable to find any information on alcohol tolerance for amylase. There is some great stuff out there and this is a rabbit hole one could spend hours in. I found there appears to be more types of amylase than malts and some very technical studies of them. Who would have thought that spit would employ so many people?

Let us know how your experiments go. I may put together a couple of my own.

The problem is that adding solvents like ethanol can interfere with the protein's conformation and potentially render it ineffective. How much it takes depends on many factors such as pH and what salts are present. Also, the osmotic stress put on the organism can also hinder or inhibit its function. I still hope 18% isn't too much. I can't wait to see if it works though.

 

[Leadgolem]

I'm in China and very interested in trying this. Mijiu (米&#37202 is a common semi-fermented breakfast porridge very similar to what you're doing here, but eaten rice and all after a couple days of fermentation so its alcohol content is minimal. While I haven't found yeast balls like this in stores here (nor have I looked much), Angel brand packaged mijiu yeast ("rice leaven" per the package) is readily available just about anywhere. Has anybody tried this for rice wine yet? Will it attenuate or is it likely to die before producing much alcohol? My other option is to get yeast balls online, but the shops all advertise them as mijiu yeast rather than wine yeast, so there's no real guarantee that they'll attenuate either.

I imagine that anything that will make Mijiu, will make rice wine. The only difference being time left to do it's work. And yes, the Angel Rice Leaven (ARL) apparently works just fine as well. Read back a few pages, and an experiment was just done on trying to figure out the best application rate for the ARL.

Angel Rice Leaven, ARL for short on here, should work just fine. If anything, it seems to produce something with more alcohol then the rice yeast balls. Here are the links for the experiment posts.

Abstract
Week 0, pitching
Week 1
Week 2
Week 3, harvest

Update: 4 weeks in and most of the rice has turned to rice pudding. No seperation of liquid and rice but there is a TON of liquid in the fermenter. I am going to pour out into the wine bottle this weekend and hope for the best. Recently took a taste and it's wonderfully sweet, but not too much although it tasted a bit alcohol hot. Is this common?

With rice yeast balls, not really. Usually you get a clear separation. With the ARL, it seems to be. For some reason the ARL seems to break down the rice kernels from the inside out. See experiment links above.

The hot alcohol flavor is pretty common too. Stirring the particulates into suspension before drinking smooths it out a lot. I don't know about other kinds of rice wine, but sake is usually aged at least 6 months before being sold. I imagine that's to let the alcohol mellow out. From brewing other things, that seems to be something of a minimum for the apparent alcohol to mellow.

 

[Leadgolem]

I'm trying to figure out how I want to do the vanilla bean additions. I'm thinking that I'll fill the bottles, start them on the stove in a water bath to pasteurize, then prep the vanilla beans. Split the beans, cut them into 1/2" pieces, submerge them it in a high alcohol solution. Once the wine has cooled enough to cork the bottles, I'd add the vanilla bean and alcohol solution. Finally, bottle and age. The point being to use the alcohol solution to get rid of any yeast on the surface of the beans.

Thoughts? Anybody have a better idea?

 

[dgr]

Put them in the rice wine, pasteurize and cork or you can use cap bottles and cap before pasteurizing. I imagine I'm missing something key here. It seems like a more sanitary way of getting there. I would also worry about all the seeds ending up in the alcohol instead of the rice wine. Anyone know how much of the flavor comes from the seeds vs. the pods?

Cooks "cook" vanilla beans for a short time to extract the vanilla flavor so would the pasteurizing temperature cause a problem? I'm sure you're aware that vanilla flavor is extracted in ethanol but who knows how much flavor you will lose to the ethanol in a short time?

ETA: Nevermind on the seeds. I misread your post.

 

[Leadgolem]

Put them in the rice wine, pasteurize and cork or you can use cap bottles and cap before pasteurizing. I imagine I'm missing something key here. It seems like a more sanitary way of getting there. I would also worry about all the seeds ending up in the alcohol instead of the rice wine. Anyone know how much of the flavor comes from the seeds vs. the pods?

Cooks "cook" vanilla beans for a short time to extract the vanilla flavor so would the pasteurizing temperature cause a problem? I'm sure you're aware that vanilla flavor is extracted in ethanol but who knows how much flavor you will lose to the ethanol in a short time?

ETA: Nevermind on the seeds. I misread your post.

http://www.arizonavanilla.com/howtousevanillabeans.html

When baking and cooking, where the vanilla will be exposed to heat for long periods of time. The heat weakens vanilla bean's fruitlike flavor so there isn't much point in using the more expensive bean.

Brief cooking isn't a problem, but when you pasteurize it's several hours before the wine is cool enough to bottle. If the vanilla was in the bottle you'd be looking at a substantial flavor loss.

The liquid in the bottle expands as it heats up, and you lose your head space in the bottles while the wine is hot. If you try to cork the bottles hot, you either won't be able to at all or you won't be able to get the corks in properly and the bottles might not seal.

At the same time, I'd rather not have a bottle with a vanilla bean in it re-ferment from wild stuff on the vanilla bean. Blowing a cork of a bottle of this stuff, if it's half as good as I'm hoping it will be, would be a shame.

 

[sivispacemparabe11um]

Maybe it seems like eternity since its my first time but its been 14 days and these next seven days are going to be so hard....

 

[TBBrewer]

I'm trying to figure out how I want to do the vanilla bean additions. I'm thinking that I'll fill the bottles, start them on the stove in a water bath to pasteurize, then prep the vanilla beans. Split the beans, cut them into 1/2" pieces, submerge them it in a high alcohol solution. Once the wine has cooled enough to cork the bottles, I'd add the vanilla bean and alcohol solution. Finally, bottle and age. The point being to use the alcohol solution to get rid of any yeast on the surface of the beans.

Thoughts? Anybody have a better idea?

What about doing an extraction with grain alcohol? Add the extract to the rice wine. They have some high quality extracts out these days that I would think would do the trick too.

 

[TBBrewer]

Check this link out. Looks like we may be able to get a selection of yeast from Angel.

http://en.angelyeast.com/products/FoodIngredients/Chinesealcohol.html