Making the Jump with the Pump

[olllllo]

I plan on buying a March 809 pump from NorthernBrewer because I have a NHC 15% off total order coupon.
*Pump qualifies!!!

http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/action/search-do?searchTerm=%22March+809+pump%22

Eventual plans are for a 1 tier setup. 2-tier for now.

Uses will be:

1. To pump hot water from the HLT to the MT.
2. Perhaps a re-circ from my plate-chiller back to the boil keggle ala Jamil http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

   Q: Can't I do this same thing using my counter-flow/plate chiller?A: Yes, you can. Several people have reported good results using their counter-flow devices. Just run the output from the device back into the kettle. You'll probably get less of a whirlpool effect, but the chilling should be just as good, no DMS and great hop character.

3. Move wort to the carboy

Should I buy 2 now? Is one sufficient but a PITA?

I figure I need some QD's.
Heard some murmers about some sort of bypasss to regulate flow.

What dooddads am I gonna need?

How are you running these?

Pics?

 

[Monster Mash]

You will want a 1/2" ball valve on the output of the pump to regulate flow. QD's are really nice and save you a lot of time but they get expensive when you add them to every connection on your brewery.

I though about Jamils whirlpool idea but I just don't have that much time, it would add a couple hours to my brew day.

 

[FlyGuy]

I though about Jamils whirlpool idea but I just don't have that much time, it would add a couple hours to my brew day.

Sorry -- I didn't follow that. Why would using Jamil's whirlpool chiller add a couple hours to your brew time?

 

[olllllo]

I think he brew 20-30 gals at a time.

 

[Monster Mash]

Right now it takes me about an hour to push 25 gallons through a CFC into the fermenter. With the whirlpool method It would take about 2 hours to chill and then another hour to transfer.

 

[jdoiv]

I have a pump and use it for the same purposes, excluding pumping to the carboys (I let gravity do that). You will need a ball valve somewhere along the output line to regulate flow. I fly sparge and have valve attached to the MLT where my sparge arm connects, so it's not on the pump itself. You could easily put it on the pump though. Unless you plan on doing a HERMS type of setup, I don't think you will need two pumps. I did set up the whirpool chiller a couple of brews back and it works pretty well. I couldn't imagine brewing without it now.

 

[pjj2ba]

I just bought a pump and made a "brewing board". I don't have the room for a dedicated stand so I mounted the pump and valves on a portable board and I make and break connections depending on the job. The picture is the wort chill and carboy filling phase. I recirculate back to the boil pot to cool the entire wort and then divert it to the carboy. I used a harder plastic tubing for the connections involving the pump and valves and a more flexible tubing to connect the pump to the various attachments (all food grade). I added a rope handle so I can store the board against the wall in the basement

I still have to do some lifting, but it is a lot less than I used to. I also use the same set up to vorlauf. I have a direct fired (induction cooker) mash tun. I put the induction cooker where the cheesebox is and put my tun on that (the extra height from the cheesebox helps with priming). Looks about the same as this with the chiller replaced with a simple length of the flexible tubing and at the ouput end I have a hoop with a bunch of holes in it (made with a Tee connector) that sits at the top of the grain bed. I run the pump until I'm happy with the clarity and then open the second valve in the Tee after the pump (and close the other) to send the wort to the boil pot on the ground. I can control the flow rates with either valve. I get that started boiling while I get ready for the sparge which I recirculate the same way and drain that to a bucket and then add it to the boil pot.

In posting this it dawned on me that rather than lifting my just boiled pot and placing it as seen above, I could just leave the dang thing on the burner and move the brewing board to it. Doh!

 

[HarvInSTL]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic. I have a march pump as well and I hope to use it this weekend for the first time.

I noticed a couple of you mentioned recirc'ing to cool the wort off, and I'm assuming that is to prevent DMS? If so I was under the impression that a 90min boil would get rid of all most all of KMS? that converts to DMS after 10mins.

Does that sound right?

 

[olllllo]

I just bought a pump and made a "brewing board". I don't have the room for a dedicated stand so I mounted the pump and valves on a portable board and I make and break connections depending on the job. The picture is the wort chill and carboy filling phase. I recirculate back to the boil pot to cool the entire wort and then divert it to the carboy. I used a harder plastic tubing for the connections involving the pump and valves and a more flexible tubing to connect the pump to the various attachments (all food grade). I added a rope handle so I can store the board against the wall in the basement

I still have to do some lifting, but it is a lot less than I used to. I also use the same set up to vorlauf. I have a direct fired (induction cooker) mash tun. I put the induction cooker where the cheesebox is and put my tun on that (the extra height from the cheesebox helps with priming). Looks about the same as this with the chiller replaced with a simple length of the flexible tubing and at the ouput end I have a hoop with a bunch of holes in it (made with a Tee connector) that sits at the top of the grain bed. I run the pump until I'm happy with the clarity and then open the second valve in the Tee after the pump (and close the other) to send the wort to the boil pot on the ground. I can control the flow rates with either valve. I get that started boiling while I get ready for the sparge which I recirculate the same way and drain that to a bucket and then add it to the boil pot.

In posting this it dawned on me that rather than lifting my just boiled pot and placing it as seen above, I could just leave the dang thing on the burner and move the brewing board to it. Doh!

That's a great visual. It's cool that you have the recirc and then just divert to the carboy. That's what I'm looking for.

 

[FlyGuy]

Right now it takes me about an hour to push 25 gallons through a CFC into the fermenter. With the whirlpool method It would take about 2 hours to chill and then another hour to transfer.

Ahhh.... makes sense now!

 

[olllllo]

Hopefully this isn't too off topic. I have a march pump as well and I hope to use it this weekend for the first time.

I noticed a couple of you mentioned recirc'ing to cool the wort off, and I'm assuming that is to prevent DMS? If so I was under the impression that a 90min boil would get rid of all most all of KMS? that converts to DMS after 10mins.

Does that sound right?

I don't know the answer to that. Jamil says this:

The same thing applies to DMS( Dimethyl Sulfide). DMS is often described as a cooked corn aroma that often plagues lager brewers. The thing is, the lighter pilsner malts contain more SMM (S-Methylmethionine), which gets hydrolyzed to DMS during the boil. Yes, this gets driven off, but unless you're doing 100 minute or longer boils, there is still some SMM left behind. The neat thing is, if you can get the temperature of the wort below 140F (38C), then SMM will not be converted to DMS. The whirlpool immersion chiller will drop the temp of the wort below 140F (38C) very quickly, resulting in far less DMS in the finished beer. On the other hand, counter flow and plate chillers continue to hydrolyze SMM into DMS while sitting there at near boiling.

My emphasis.

 

[Bobby_M]

I plan on buying a March 809 pump from NorthernBrewer because I have a NHC 15% off total order coupon.
*Pump qualifies!!!

http://pivo.northernbrewer.com/nbstore/action/search-do?searchTerm=%22March+809+pump%22

Eventual plans are for a 1 tier setup. 2-tier for now.

Uses will be:

1. To pump hot water from the HLT to the MT.
2. Perhaps a re-circ from my plate-chiller back to the boil keggle ala Jamil http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php
3. Move wort to the carboy

Should I buy 2 now? Is one sufficient but a PITA?

Pics?

If you batch sparge, you can do a single tier with one pump and plenty of QD's.

1. Pump liquor from HLT to MLT.
2. Move to pump to circulate mash back on itself to keep consistent temp, especially if you direct fire (or divert it to a HERMS coil in your HLT, either one).
3. At end of mash, move outlet from top of MLT to your kettle for first runnings.
4. Pump sparge water from HLT to MLT.
5. Pump 2nd runnings into kettle.
6. Swith pump to circulate HLT water through the CFC and get about a gallon of water boiling to sanitize (while you're boiling your wort).
7. End of boil, circulate your wort through the CFC back into your kettle. This should get your overall wort temp down under 140F pretty quickly because you're adding 80F (ish) wort back into the near boiling wort in the kettle which is better than letting it all sit in there. You monitor the kettle temp and just keep pumping until you hit pitching temp.

This wouldn't be too bad with all QDs.

 

[FireBrewer]

If you batch sparge, you can do a single tier with one pump and plenty of QD's.

Yep. This is what I do and it works for me.

If you have a good CFC you shouldn't need to recirculate the wort back to the kettle. If you have a hard time of getting wort temp down in the CFC, try a ball valve on the output and cut back the flow until it reaches the temp you want. IMHO, recirculating wort back to the kettle defeats one of the advantages of a CFC: having the wort pass from near-boiling to pitching temp in a closed, sanitary environment.

 

[Bobby_M]

Fire, there's a compromise to both uses of the CFC. First, if you make a single pass, you've got to be pretty diligent in watching the output temperature, it can get away on you if your tap water is really cold (in the case of winter brewing especially). Second problem you can have with single pass is that if you do have to slow the flow down to reach your desired temp, you have a large mass of wort sitting at 200F for at least 15 minutes meaning it is in DMS production mode. Finally, there are folks who just have to resort to pumping icewater through the plate or cfc to reach pitching temps (especially for lagers) during the summer. My tap water is already 75 so if I want to pitch at 50F, I have no other choice. It would be wasteful to run your ice water for the entire time the wort is flowing through the chiller.

The recirc method lets you use tap water to get the overall volume down under 140F relatively quickly to stop DMS production. From there, you run your icewater through the chiller while continuing to recirc back to the kettle. You gain the benefit of having the entire volume running at the same temp so you can just stop when you hit your target temp. There's no reason to assume you're being any less sanitary by recirculating. I mean, the kettle was rocking at boiling temps for at least an hour so as long as you throw a cover on when the temp hits 140F or less, you're good. IMHO, recirculating with a plate or CFC combines the efficiency of an external heat exchanger with the benefits of an IC.

One additional option that I may consider when ice is required for cooling is simply putting my IC (that's immersion chiller for the acronymically challenged) into my HLT and filling it with icewater. I'd circulate the wort through the IC as if it were a CFC.

This is the cool thing about having a pump... options.

 

[FireBrewer]

I hear what you're saying about DMS; however, how do professional brewers get past DMS production with a mass of wort sitting at near-boiling temps and having it pumped off slowly? Constant boiling?

There's no reason to assume you're being any less sanitary by recirculating. I mean, the kettle was rocking at boiling temps for at least an hour so as long as you throw a cover on when the temp hits 140F or less, you're good.

Maybe I'm a little neurotic about it but I'm uncomfy with having cooling wort open to the environment, even 140-200, especially with brewing outside or in a garage.

Still, you bring an interesting arguement. Although I've never had problems with DMS (at least the scoresheets didn't say so ), I'm always open to new techniques.

One additional option that I may consider when ice is required for cooling is simply putting my IC (that's immersion chiller for the acronymically challenged) into my HLT and filling it with icewater. I'd circulate the wort through the IC as if it were a CFC.

Smart idea, may give that a try myself. Hard to get to lager pitching temp with 70* tap water.

 

[pjj2ba]

My motivation for the recirculating cooling is less about DMS and more about preserving hop aroma from late additions. I think there may be a hopback in my future and at that point I may skip recirculating. If I do a beer that has no or little late hop additions (pils, kolsch, O'fest etc.), I simply run the wort through the chiller right into the carboy - takes less than 10 min.

6. Swith pump to circulate HLT water through the CFC and get about a gallon of water boiling to sanitize (while you're boiling your wort).

I do this too, but use StarSan. I sterilize up my carboy, then dump the StarSan into the now empty Mash Tun, turn on the pump and let it recirculate. Then I pump it to a bucket for storage and then repeat this when I'm all done to clean things up.

 

[Bobby_M]

Keep in mind that I'm talking in theory and not in practice because I'm still working on my brewstand design and don't even have a pump yet. Take my rants with a grain of salt.

 

[FireBrewer]

Still good points.

 

[olllllo]

Wow guys! Awesome information. Keep it up!

Just to give you some background, I intend on making the brewstand a part of my hardscape, hence the 1- tier.
For resale,
we will have an outdoor fireplace,
a grilling/bar area
and to non-brewers, a kick ass 3 burner stovetop.

I hope to have the plans drawn up over the summer and begin buidling in the fall.

 

[Grimsawyer]

Well... here's a long-winded thread I started before i got my taxes back. I use one pump and it works for me. I also batch sparge. I had been playing with how I was going to build my brewery and this is what I decided to do. Keep in mind it is a work in progress... I believe at least 70% of people who build something like this, no matter how advanced their brewery is, always feel like their finished product is a work in progress... hahahah!!! THE MADNESS!!!!!

THE BROTHER YARR

Maybe in the future I'll get a CFC or a chill plate. As of right now I'm happy with the performance of my immersion wort chiller. And instead of a cooler for my HLT I'd like a converted Keg with heating elements and a ranco controller and put the heat exchanger in there. Good luck on your brewery!!!

 

[Bruin]

Firebrewer and pjj2ba, are those plastic quick disconnects holding up? Obviously they must be food grade/high temp rated. Where d'ya get 'em? Building my rig for 2012! My Dudadiesel 20 plate model 23 chiller is on the way and a pump is coming soon I hope.

 

[Guess42]

Really? This thread has been dead for four years, and your off topic.

 

[Bruin]

Oops, missed the date. But the photos of the pump connections ARE relevant to getting and setting up a pump, and I am making the jump to the pump, as the thread states. Thanks for the helpful comment anyhow!

 

[pjj2ba]

Mine are not quick disconnects and they are holding up just fine. The fittings are made from polypropylene and were purchased at McMaster.com

 

[Bruin]

Thanks man!