Making Starter to Create 2 Packs in 1?!?

[TEWNCfarms]

so going to buy some kits this week, and one of them calls for the same type of yeast. Can I make a starter and use half of the starter for each 5 gallon batch from the 1 pack of liquid WYeast French Saison yeast? This would save me a lot of money.

Also can I save and keep feeding a starter just like a sourdough starter? I’d love to keep yeast I buy going so I don’t have to spend $10+/- every batch

 

[WBB]

Yes you can, but you’d have to overbuild the starter to the tune of around 4-500 billion cells. So use the yeast starter calculator and depending on your resources, build up. And when I say resources I mean if you have a 2L flask vs a 5L flask, it’ll take longer with a 2L flask.

Anyways, build up and then go by weight when you dispense to two separate jars or flasks. When you figure you have around 5 billion cells, weigh it and then put half of that in another jar.

But the cost savings might be dashed by the amount of DME you would use.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yes you can, but you’d have to overbuild the starter to the tune of around 4-500 billion cells. So use the yeast starter calculator and depending on your resources, build up. And when I say resources I mean if you have a 2L flask vs a 5L flask, it’ll take longer with a 2L flask.

Anyways, build up and then go by weight when you dispense to two separate jars or flasks. When you figure you have around 5 billion cells, weigh it and then put half of that in another jar.

But the cost savings might be dashed by the amount of DME you would use.

Ahh, you think so on the DME? Is there any other thing to use in place of DME? Could I use mason jars?

 

[kh54s10]

The DME required for a starter is a lot less than the price of another package of yeast.

If you are brewing a lighter beer you could draw off some from the mash and dilute it to about 1.040 if it is already higher. You could freeze for later use or pressure can for closet storage.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

The DME required for a starter is a lot less than the price of another package of yeast.

If you are brewing a lighter beer you could draw off some from the mash and dilute it to about 1.040 if it is already higher. You could freeze for later use or pressure can for closet storage.

Ohhh so I can use my own wort to make it? How much DME would I need to make 2 out of 1 yeast? Freeze the starter or freeze the wort if I use my own from brewing? And can I keep this starter going like a sourdough starter? Just keep adding to it?

 

[kh54s10]

I use this calculator: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

Read up on making starters. You really build a starter differently depending on the OG of the recipe. So the DME needed would be different for a 1.050 beer or a 1.080 beer.

Do not freeze a starter - that would kill the yeast, at least most of it. Freeze the wort for saving, then thaw to pitching temperature then add yeast.

I would not keep a starter going and add to it. Too much chance for an infection to take hold. Bacteria or wild yeast.

 

[IslandLizard]

Can I make a starter...

No, you should always make a starter!

Main reasons are:

• Typically, liquid yeast is a few weeks to a few months old, live cell count has been dropping from day 1.
• You prove and increase viability. You don't know how it's been handled or stored since manufacture.
• It ramps up cell count.
• By overbuilding starters (making more than you need) you can ranch the extra for a next starter, and so on.

Read up on making starters, properly. There are guidelines and then so many variations on how to do it (process).
Use excellent sanitation (!) you don't want to propagate "bugs."

Essentials:

1. Exercising excellent sanitation practices is paramount!
2. Remove your yeast pack from fridge to warm up to room temps.
   • Although not essential, you may as well smack and shake up the Wyeast pack to give it a head start.
   • You may have to do this well ahead of time (a few hours before).
3. Use 1 part DME to 10 parts water (by weight), e.g., 200 grams of DME plus 2 liters (2000 grams) of water.
4. You can boil the starter wort in a clean (stainless) kitchen pot on the stove, watch out for boilovers!
5. Adding one drop of Fermcap-S prevents heavy foaming and helps against boilovers. It also helps somewhat against foamovers when fermenting the starter especially when not using a stir plate or orbital shaker.
6. After boiling (simmering) for 5 minutes, turn off heat and place a properly fitting, clean and well sanitized lid on it.
7. Place pot in a tub or sink with cold water. You may need to exchange that water once or twice with cold. On the last exchange maybe add an ice pack to the chilling water.
8. When cooled to pitching temps, pour into a clean, well sanitized flask, jar, or glass jug, allowing for plenty of headspace, especially when not using a stir plate or orbital shaker.
   • I use flasks but also 1/2 gallon pickle jars or
   • 1/2 gallon or gallon "wine" jugs from the LHBS (Local HomeBrew Store)
   • Large 1/2 gallon mason jars can be used too
9. Pitch the content of your (sanitized) yeast pack.
10. Cap with some sanitized aluminum foil.
    • Crimp it around the top so nothing else can drop in.
    • But not too tightly, we want to enable air exchange.
11. Put on stir plate or shaker, or swirl as often as you can. Constant oxygenation is key to rapid and full growth!
    
12. Place on kitchen counter or other room temp area where pets and little kids can't get to.
13. When using the "intermittent swirl" method:
    • If not on an impervious surface, you may want to put a (deep) plate or so under it, to catch blow off if it happens.
    • Many of us have lost half of the starter to the counter more than a few times by using this "intermittent swirl" method. This always seems to happen overnight. Obviously you cannot reclaim the yeast that exited the jar, it isn't sanitary anymore. However, the content inside should be OK.

Still with us?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I use this calculator: http://www.yeastcalculator.com/

Read up on making starters. You really build a starter differently depending on the OG of the recipe. So the DME needed would be different for a 1.050 beer or a 1.080 beer.

Do not freeze a starter - that would kill the yeast, at least most of it. Freeze the wort for saving, then thaw to pitching temperature then add yeast.

I would not keep a starter going and add to it. Too much chance for an infection to take hold. Bacteria or wild yeast.

Cool thanks! How long will the starter last?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

No, you should always make a starter!

Main reasons are:

• Typically, liquid yeast is a few weeks to a few months old, live cell count has been dropping from day 1.
• You prove and increase viability. You don't know how it's been handled or stored since manufacture.
• It ramps up cell count.
• By overbuilding starters (making more than you need) you can ranch the extra for a next starter, and so on.

Read up on making starters, properly. There are guidelines and then so many variations on how to do it (process).
Use excellent sanitation (!) you don't want to propagate "bugs."

Essentials:

1. Exercising excellent sanitation practices is paramount!
2. Remove your yeast pack from fridge to warm up to room temps.
   • Although not essential, you may as well smack and shake up the Wyeast pack to give it a head start.
   • You may have to do this well ahead of time (a few hours before).
3. Use 1 part DME to 10 parts water (by weight), e.g., 200 grams of DME plus 2 liters (2000 grams) of water.
4. You can boil the starter wort in a clean (stainless) kitchen pot on the stove, watch out for boilovers!
5. Adding one drop of Fermcap-S prevents heavy foaming and helps against boilovers. It also helps somewhat against foamovers when fermenting the starter especially when not using a stir plate or orbital shaker.
6. After boiling (simmering) for 5 minutes, turn off heat and place a properly fitting, clean and well sanitized lid on it.
7. Place pot in a tub or sink with cold water. You may need to exchange that water once or twice with cold. On the last exchange maybe add an ice pack to the chilling water.
8. When cooled to pitching temps, pour into a clean, well sanitized flask, jar, or glass jug, allowing for plenty of headspace, especially when not using a stir plate or orbital shaker.
   • I use flasks but also 1/2 gallon pickle jars or
   • 1/2 gallon or gallon "wine" jugs from the LHBS (Local HomeBrew Store)
   • Large 1/2 gallon mason jars can be used too
9. Pitch the content of your (sanitized) yeast pack.
10. Cap with some sanitized aluminum foil.
    • Crimp it around the top so nothing else can drop in.
    • But not too tightly, we want to enable air exchange.
11. Put on stir plate or shaker, or swirl as often as you can. Constant oxygenation is key to rapid and full growth!
    
12. Place on kitchen counter or other room temp area where pets and little kids can't get to.
13. When using the "intermittent swirl" method:
    • If not on an impervious surface, you may want to put a (deep) plate or so under it, to catch blow off if it happens.
    • Many of us have lost half of the starter to the counter more than a few times by using this "intermittent swirl" method. This always seems to happen overnight. Obviously you cannot reclaim the yeast that exited the jar, it isn't sanitary anymore. However, the content inside should be OK.

Still with us?

haha Swoo that is a lot! I have been gaining so much I had no idea about over the past week and a half, takes me a minute but I’ll get. But thanks for all that detail instructions that helps a lot! So how long does the starter last if I make extra?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

And so I guess back to the main question, now that I know I Need to make starter every time, should i buy a pack of yeast for Each recipe kit I’m buying? 2 of the 3 use the same yeast...

 

[IslandLizard]

haha Swoo that is a lot! I have been gaining so much I had no idea about over the past week and a half, takes me a minute but I’ll get. But thanks for all that detail instructions that helps a lot! So how long does the starter last if I make extra?

There are many threads on ranching yeast, saving from starters that were made larger than needed. The saved slurries can be stored in (small) mason jars in the fridge for a year, even longer. If you save 100 billion cells out from an overbuilt starter, the viability clock starts ticking from then on. Put the date of harvesting (ranching) your extra slurry into your yeast calculator and it will estimate how many cells are still good and viable on today's date. Then make a new starter from that, overbuild it to save some out for the next brew, and so on. You can also reuse harvested yeast cakes from previous fermentations. You'd only need to pitch about 1/4 of them if they're less than 1 month old.

And so I guess back to the main question, now that I know I Need to make starter every time, should i buy a pack of yeast for Each recipe kit I’m buying? 2 of the 3 use the same yeast...

If you make overbuilt starters and/or harvest yeast cakes you can repitch many times into different beers. There are guidelines on how many times and how gravity plays a role in that.

If you're careful and plan ahead, you can keep a yeast strain from one single pack around for several years, especially if you have a good solid sanitation regimen. However, there's a limit on how many times you can rebuild and repitch, mostly due to small infections becoming bigger and unwanted yeast mutations. You can alds maintain younger and cleaner generations to rebuild new ones from. You may even freeze some, with added glycerine.

Saison yeasts are different from, say British ale yeast, or American ale yeasts, or Belgian strains. So for different styles you probably want to use their dedicated yeast strains, but for example, it may be overkill to use or stock 3 different British strains unless you really want to exemplify their special character in a certain beer. Now, many exquisite American Ales (e.g., NEIPAs) are made using British yeasts (such as WY1318), so there are those crossover considerations. I've made equally wonderful NEIPAs using either WY1318, 1272, 1098 or even 1968. They were all different due to the hops used and how the yeasts presented them.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

There are many threads on ranching yeast, saving from starters that were made larger than needed. The saved slurries can be stored in (small) mason jars in the fridge for a year, even longer. If you save 100 billion cells out from an overbuilt starter, the viability clock starts ticking from then on. Put the date of harvesting (ranching) your extra slurry into your yeast calculator and it will estimate how many cells are still good and viable on today's date. Then make a new starter from that, overbuild it to save some out for the next brew, and so on. You can also reuse harvested yeast cakes from previous fermentations. You'd only need to pitch about 1/4 of them if they're less than 1 month old.

If you make overbuilt starters and/or harvest yeast cakes you can repitch many times into different beers. There are guidelines on how many times and how gravity plays a role in that.

If you're careful and plan ahead, you can keep a yeast strain from one single pack around for several years, especially if you have a good solid sanitation regimen. However, there's a limit on how many times you can rebuild and repitch, mostly due to small infections becoming bigger and unwanted yeast mutations. You can alds maintain younger and cleaner generations to rebuild new ones from. You may even freeze some, with added glycerine.

Saison yeasts are different from, say British ale yeast, or American ale yeasts, or Belgian strains. So for different styles you probably want to use their dedicated yeast strains, but for example, it may be overkill to use or stock 3 different British strains unless you really want to exemplify their special character in a certain beer. Now, many exquisite American Ales (e.g., NEIPAs) are made using British yeasts (such as WY1318), so there are those crossover considerations. I've made equally wonderful NEIPAs using either WY1318, 1272, 1098 or even 1968. They were all different due to the hops used and how the yeasts presented them.

Awesome thanks so much for ALL your help! You’ve been a tremendous help and I definitely Am going to start saving yeast, I’ve got an entire fridge empty that I can save yeast in. And now when you mention the yeast cake, I remember RPH mentioning on my first post that yeast cake is the trub in the bottom of my fermenter is this correct? Do I save the whole lot or just half? And also when you talk about the intermittent swirl do you mean just agitating/shaking/swirling the jar by hand?

 

[RM-MN]

Awesome thanks so much for ALL your help! You’ve been a tremendous help and I definitely Am going to start saving yeast, I’ve got an entire fridge empty that I can save yeast in. And now when you mention the yeast cake, I remember RPH mentioning on my first post that yeast cake is the trub in the bottom of my fermenter is this correct? Do I save the whole lot or just half? And also when you talk about the intermittent swirl do you mean just agitating/shaking/swirling the jar by hand?

Yeast is only part of the trub in the bottom of your fermenter. The rest will be proteins and hops. You can save and use all of it or you can wash it to get mostly yeast, your choice. The yeast from the fermenter will be enough for 4 new batches so I'd suggest you have 4 pint jars sanitized first, then swirl up the trub with some of the beer you purposely left behind for this and divide it equally into the 4 jars. Put the lids on but not tight as there will be a bit of CO2 dissolved in the beer/trub that needs to be allowed to escape. Now you have enough yeast for 4 new batches, each of which can provide you with enough yeast for 4 more new batches. Watch so your refrigerator does not completly fill with yeast that you saved and plan to only reuse the yeast for a few (3-5) generations as it will mutate. You will not need to make a new starter with these jars of yeast if you use them in a reasonable time.

When you make a starter without using a stir plate you need to shake the jar every time you walk by. This will make the CO2 escape so watch for creating a volcano of yeast when you do it. This shaking will promote more yeast growth than just leaving the jar sit. Plan on it taking an extra few hours more than using a stir plate.

 

[IslandLizard]

And also when you talk about the intermittent swirl do you mean just agitating/shaking/swirling the jar by hand?

Yup, swirl as often as you can.
Shaking is very good too, but you'll need to put a lid on it or you'll have a mess. Then loosen the lid somewhat, allowing for air exchange. I would cover the loosely lidded jar with some sanitized aluminum foil, to keep the "lid meets jar" area clean and sanitized.

Also look up "shaken not stirred" yeast starters. It's an alternative method based on creating as much foam as possible by vigorous shaking. You'd need a gallon jug for that, lots of headspace, and 1-1.5 liters of starter wort.

Remember, you need to keep everything touching the yeast slurry sanitized.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yeast is only part of the trub in the bottom of your fermenter. The rest will be proteins and hops. You can save and use all of it or you can wash it to get mostly yeast, your choice. The yeast from the fermenter will be enough for 4 new batches so I'd suggest you have 4 pint jars sanitized first, then swirl up the trub with some of the beer you purposely left behind for this and divide it equally into the 4 jars. Put the lids on but not tight as there will be a bit of CO2 dissolved in the beer/trub that needs to be allowed to escape. Now you have enough yeast for 4 new batches, each of which can provide you with enough yeast for 4 more new batches. Watch so your refrigerator does not completly fill with yeast that you saved and plan to only reuse the yeast for a few (3-5) generations as it will mutate. You will not need to make a new starter with these jars of yeast if you use them in a reasonable time.

When you make a starter without using a stir plate you need to shake the jar every time you walk by. This will make the CO2 escape so watch for creating a volcano of yeast when you do it. This shaking will promote more yeast growth than just leaving the jar sit. Plan on it taking an extra few hours more than using a stir plate.

Awesome thanks so much for the info on the yeast cake! I’m Definitely going to be doing that. And so if I divide a 5 gallon trub into 4, each one is enough for a 5 gallon batch?

Question on the residuals of these yeast cakes: if I save a cake from a Spiced beer, will I get flavors from that cake in my new beer of let’s say a Saison?

And also, should I only use certain cakes for certain beers, as in an American Ale Yeast for American ales, and Belgian Ale Yeast for Belgians? Like the original yeast being a Lab’s “xxx Yeast.”

Andd, is a London yeast really That different than a Scottish yeast? I bought a Cranberry Gruit kit that requires one, and a Spiced Ale that requires the other; I went ahead and bought both different yeasts just since I’m new and what would it hurt to have a little bank of yeasts, but could I have just used one of those yeasts and doubled it with a starter to use in both beers?

Sorry for all these questions, but you all are truly such a Great help! I Really Appreciate Everything! Happy Thanksgiving!

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yup, swirl as often as you can.
Shaking is very good too, but you'll need to put a lid on it or you'll have a mess. Then loosen the lid somewhat, allowing for air exchange. I would cover the loosely lidded jar with some sanitized aluminum foil, to keep the "lid meets jar" area clean and sanitized.

Also look up "shaken not stirred" yeast starters. It's an alternative method based on creating as much foam as possible by vigorous shaking. You'd need a gallon jug for that, lots of headspace, and 1-1.5 liters of starter wort.

Remember, you need to keep everything touching the yeast slurry sanitized.

Awesome thanks, yeah I think the gallon jug would be more on my side for now until I get a flask and stir plate.

Also my last post is a response for you as well if you’re willing to chime in, and the gratitude as well. Thanks!

 

[IslandLizard]

Awesome thanks so much for the info on the yeast cake! I’m Definitely going to be doing that. And so if I divide a 5 gallon trub into 4, each one is enough for a 5 gallon batch?

Question on the residuals of these yeast cakes: if I save a cake from a Spiced beer, will I get flavors from that cake in my new beer of let’s say a Saison?

And also, should I only use certain cakes for certain beers, as in an American Ale Yeast for American ales, and Belgian Ale Yeast for Belgians? Like the original yeast being a Lab’s “xxx Yeast.”

Andd, is a London yeast really That different than a Scottish yeast? I bought a Cranberry Gruit kit that requires one, and a Spiced Ale that requires the other; I went ahead and bought both different yeasts just since I’m new and what would it hurt to have a little bank of yeasts, but could I have just used one of those yeasts and doubled it with a starter to use in both beers?

Sorry for all these questions, but you all are truly such a Great help! I Really Appreciate Everything! Happy Thanksgiving!

Yup, each quarter yeast cake (with trub) is good for another 5 gallon batch of similar gravity. When you want to use one of those jars containing a 1/4 of the saved cake and it's getting older than a month to 6 weeks (stored in the fridge), you should make another 2 liter starter but only use 1/4 of that jar. That will yield you the desired viable cells for a good pitch.

Generally you should not repitch yeast slurries from high gravity fermentations (say over 1.075), from very hoppy beers (IPAs) into much milder tasting ones (say a Cream Ale, or a Kolsch) or from spiced beers into something much milder, where the spice may be picked up. Also dark beer slurries may carry some color (and roasty flavors) forward into very pale beers. Use some judgment and common sense.

Most yeasts can be used anywhere your imagination allows and beyond... Now some maybe more successfully than others, but often, hey, why not? We often use British Ale yeasts in New England IPAs. Those are most definitely NOT British Ales, they are as American as they come with their insane amounts of juicy hoppiness.
But a few yeasts are more style specific, like Saison yeasts leave their spicy and high attenuation signature. Not good for say a Stout, or another style where body or "cleanliness" is wanted. But brewing an American IPA with Belgian yeast can turn it into a "Belgian IPA" easily, with that signature clovey, bubblegummy, or estery character. Wheat beer yeasts also tend to have a signature flavor profile that won't work in many other beers. Can you imagine a Hefeweizen-like banana flavor in an Amber Ale? Or a spicy/peppery Witbier yeast? But the last one works wonders in some IPAs, giving them a pronounced Belgian character (e.g., Flying Dog's Raging *****).

Quite often the yeasts specified with a recipe are style specific, but feel free to substitute with something you have on hand. Read up on the characteristics of the yeast you want to use instead and see if that fits your beer. Aside from flavor profiles, (apparent) attenuation, alcohol tolerance, optimal temperature range, and flocculation (how quickly it settles out) are the most important parameters on choosing a particular yeast over contenders. It's fun to experiment, but don't go overboard or you'll experience the same yeast management issues some of us fall prone to at some time. You've been warned...

I store most of my yeasts in (small) 4 oz and 8 oz mason (jelly) jars. They stack up well together inside a medium size box that fits perfectly between 2 shelves in our kitchen fridge, with some room on the side for loose ones. Easier to handle than 18-24 small loose jars. Then I have a collection of loose jars too, and saved yeast slurries in 12 oz jelly jars.

Oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours too!

 

[RM-MN]

Yup, each quarter yeast cake (with trub) is good for another 5 gallon batch of similar gravity. When you want to use one of those jars containing a 1/4 of the saved cake and it's getting older than a month to 6 weeks (stored in the fridge), you should make another 2 liter starter but only use 1/4 of that jar. That will yield you the desired viable cells for a good pitch.

I store most of my yeasts in (small) 4 oz and 8 oz mason (jelly) jars. They stack up well together inside a medium size box that fits perfectly between 2 shelves in our kitchen fridge, with some room on the side for loose ones. Easier to handle than 18-24 small loose jars. Then I have a collection of loose jars too, and saved yeast slurries in 12 oz jelly jars.

Both of these are good practice. Not noted is that you need to label each jar (on the lid probably) to tell what yeast is in there and when it was put into the refrigerator. By the time you have a dozen unlabeled jars of yeast you will know the reason for the labels.

I find that yeast cakes stored in the refrigerator keep their viability very well and most of the time do not require a starter. Instead I will pitch them into wort that has been well aerated and allow the yeast to build up their population in the beer. It may take a little longer for the beer to start fermenting this way.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

@RM-MN @IslandLizard im going to respond to your replies, but quick question, can I save bottle dregs like yeast cakes?

 

[IslandLizard]

can I save bottle dregs like yeast cakes?

Sour dregs, usually pitch directly into the (sour) fermenter.

Clean beer bottle dregs, pitch in ~100 ml of low gravity wort (~1.010-1.012) to rebuild their vitality and grow new cells. Those critters are usually exhausted.
Many brewers flame the lip (or sanitize it well) and pour the starter wort directly into the bottle then stick an airlock on it with a #2 stopper, or loosely cover it with aluminum foil.

Then when that has grown (could be awhile), without cold crashing, go to a regular 2-step starter. First 500ml, cold crash if you want, then 2 liter (with overbuild).

Mind though, many breweries filter or centrifuge their beer before packaging, and use a generic yeast for bottle conditioning. So make sure you're cultivating one that's worth it.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yup, each quarter yeast cake (with trub) is good for another 5 gallon batch of similar gravity. When you want to use one of those jars containing a 1/4 of the saved cake and it's getting older than a month to 6 weeks (stored in the fridge), you should make another 2 liter starter but only use 1/4 of that jar. That will yield you the desired viable cells for a good pitch.

Generally you should not repitch yeast slurries from high gravity fermentations (say over 1.075), from very hoppy beers (IPAs) into much milder tasting ones (say a Cream Ale, or a Kolsch) or from spiced beers into something much milder, where the spice may be picked up. Also dark beer slurries may carry some color (and roasty flavors) forward into very pale beers. Use some judgment and common sense.

Most yeasts can be used anywhere your imagination allows and beyond... Now some maybe more successfully than others, but often, hey, why not? We often use British Ale yeasts in New England IPAs. Those are most definitely NOT British Ales, they are as American as they come with their insane amounts of juicy hoppiness.
But a few yeasts are more style specific, like Saison yeasts leave their spicy and high attenuation signature. Not good for say a Stout, or another style where body or "cleanliness" is wanted. But brewing an American IPA with Belgian yeast can turn it into a "Belgian IPA" easily, with that signature clovey, bubblegummy, or estery character. Wheat beer yeasts also tend to have a signature flavor profile that won't work in many other beers. Can you imagine a Hefeweizen-like banana flavor in an Amber Ale? Or a spicy/peppery Witbier yeast? But the last one works wonders in some IPAs, giving them a pronounced Belgian character (e.g., Flying Dog's Raging *****).

Quite often the yeasts specified with a recipe are style specific, but feel free to substitute with something you have on hand. Read up on the characteristics of the yeast you want to use instead and see if that fits your beer. Aside from flavor profiles, (apparent) attenuation, alcohol tolerance, optimal temperature range, and flocculation (how quickly it settles out) are the most important parameters on choosing a particular yeast over contenders. It's fun to experiment, but don't go overboard or you'll experience the same yeast management issues some of us fall prone to at some time. You've been warned...

I store most of my yeasts in (small) 4 oz and 8 oz mason (jelly) jars. They stack up well together inside a medium size box that fits perfectly between 2 shelves in our kitchen fridge, with some room on the side for loose ones. Easier to handle than 18-24 small loose jars. Then I have a collection of loose jars too, and saved yeast slurries in 12 oz jelly jars.

Oh yeah, Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours too!

Awesome thanks for the great detail and explanation! I completely understand and that’s what I was thinking about the mixing of yeast cakes. I didn’t realize that certain yeasts provide different attributes Besides the flavor, but makes complete sense. My fridge will be Perfect to save my cakes!

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Both of these are good practice. Not noted is that you need to label each jar (on the lid probably) to tell what yeast is in there and when it was put into the refrigerator. By the time you have a dozen unlabeled jars of yeast you will know the reason for the labels.

I find that yeast cakes stored in the refrigerator keep their viability very well and most of the time do not require a starter. Instead I will pitch them into wort that has been well aerated and allow the yeast to build up their population in the beer. It may take a little longer for the beer to start fermenting this way.

Haha yeah I definitely was going to label, I can hardly remember what something is an hour later!

How do I know when to aerate my beer? And how should I? Just by shaking it? Also does the slower fermentation affect the beer, in a good or bad way? Could I just leave the cake out for a day on the counter to help speed the fermentation?

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Sour dregs, usually pitch directly into the (sour) fermenter.

Clean beer bottle dregs, pitch in ~100 ml of low gravity wort (~1.010-1.012) to rebuild their vitality and grow new cells. Those critters are usually exhausted.
Many brewers flame the lip (or sanitize it well) and pour the starter wort directly into the bottle then stick an airlock on it with a #2 stopper, or loosely cover it with aluminum foil.

Then when that has grown (could be awhile), without cold crashing, go to a regular 2-step starter. First 500ml, cold crash if you want, then 2 liter (with overbuild).

Mind though, many breweries filter or centrifuge their beer before packaging, and use a generic yeast for bottle conditioning. So make sure you're cultivating one that's worth it.

Awesome thanks. Yeah I was going to use Mad Fermentationist’s bottle dreg list, and as of now Definitely going to throw in some Jolly Pumpkin Bam Biere that stuff is Amazing!

I guess I didn’t know if I could drink a bottle weeks or even months before I’d be brewing a beer that I’d use dregs, and could/should save the dregs in the fridge so I could enjoy the beer sooner, or should i wait to open the bottle or buy another bottle if I like it?

And is usually one 12oz bottle dregs are good for a 5 gallon batch of a 750ml bottle? Or should I just add like four 12oz dregs?

 

[RM-MN]

Haha yeah I definitely was going to label, I can hardly remember what something is an hour later!

How do I know when to aerate my beer? And how should I? Just by shaking it? Also does the slower fermentation affect the beer, in a good or bad way? Could I just leave the cake out for a day on the counter to help speed the fermentation?

I aerate the wort just before pitching the yeast. I do it by pouring the wort from the kettle to the fermenter and back a couple times. You air contains some bacteria. You want the yeast to propagate fast enough to overwhelm the bacteria before it gets a chance to take over. This isn't likely if you pitch a decent amount of yeast and when the yeast start producing CO2 it stops the bacteria from propagating further. You want the wort to be near the cool end of the recommended fermentation range for most yeasts as when they get started and there is a lot of sugar for them to eat they go wild and raise the temperature of the beer from their activity. Once well started it is much more difficult to lower the temperature and the higher temperatures allow the yeast to make off flavor compounds.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

I aerate the wort just before pitching the yeast. I do it by pouring the wort from the kettle to the fermenter and back a couple times. You air contains some bacteria. You want the yeast to propagate fast enough to overwhelm the bacteria before it gets a chance to take over. This isn't likely if you pitch a decent amount of yeast and when the yeast start producing CO2 it stops the bacteria from propagating further. You want the wort to be near the cool end of the recommended fermentation range for most yeasts as when they get started and there is a lot of sugar for them to eat they go wild and raise the temperature of the beer from their activity. Once well started it is much more difficult to lower the temperature and the higher temperatures allow the yeast to make off flavor compounds.

Awesome thanks for your help!

 

[IslandLizard]

Could I just leave the cake out for a day on the counter to help speed the fermentation?

What do you want to leave on the counter to help speed up what fermentation?

What we refer to as "yeast cake" is the layer of settled trub and yeast mixed together on the bottom of the fermenter at the end of the fermentation. It has the clear beer on top, which is ready to be packaged (bottled, kegged).

After racking or siphoning the clear beer out of the fermenter (for packaging), what's left behind on the bottom is called the "yeast cake." It usually has about 1-2 quarts of the beer left on top.
We swirl that "cake" and beer up into a homogeneous pourable slurry, and pour into a large jar or divide over a few smaller ones. Whatever is left we usually throw out or pour into another vessel.
For good measure, we refer to those saved yeast slurries as harvested yeast, or harvested yeast cake, etc. but not (yeast) cake anymore.

 

[Horseflesh]

I’ve had really good luck lazily harvesting yeast as @IslandLizard described above. No washing... just jar it and direct pitch it within a couple of months.

I can also verify that it is easy to push your luck and pitch crummy yeast that have been stored too long! I had a pint of thick slurry that was 11 months old... it didn’t smell or taste bad so figured I would try it out. 2 days later it had barely begun so I headed to the LHBS for fresh yeast. Fortunately pouring in a pint of mostly-dead yeast didn’t harm the final product!

Solution: brew more often!

 

[TEWNCfarms]

What do you want to leave on the counter to help speed up what fermentation?

What we refer to as "yeast cake" is the layer of settled trub and yeast mixed together on the bottom of the fermenter at the end of the fermentation. It has the clear beer on top, which is ready to be packaged (bottled, kegged).

After racking or siphoning the clear beer out of the fermenter (for packaging), what's left behind on the bottom is called the "yeast cake." It usually has about 1-2 quarts of the beer left on top.
We swirl that "cake" and beer up into a homogeneous pourable slurry, and pour into a large jar or divide over a few smaller ones. Whatever is left we usually throw out or pour into another vessel.
For good measure, we refer to those saved yeast slurries as harvested yeast, or harvested yeast cake, etc. but not (yeast) cake anymore.

Yeah I’m talking about the harvested yeast cake, before I pitch it again. Would setting it out help to bring it back more active like you would say a smack pack?

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah I’m talking about the harvested yeast cake, before I pitch it again. Would setting it out help to bring it back more active like you would say a smack pack?

Yeast should be stored refrigerated, but pitched at pitching temps, say 64-68F for most ale yeasts. Both the wort and yeast should be within 10F of each other, 5-7 degrees is even better, but I've never gone that far purposefully.

So in that light, yes, the jar of yeast slurry should be allowed to warm up to that temp, before pitching.
If there is a lot of liquid on top in the jar of harvested yeast, I usually decant most of it before letting it warm up. If it's a flask or jar with a cold crashed yeast starter, I pour off most of the supernatant (the starter beer on top) before putting it on the counter. I usually do this when I've started the boil.

That jar will be around pitching temps by the time the wort is in the bucket. It's not that critical, but pitching 55F yeast slurry (10F lower than optimal) into 75F wort (10F higher than optimal) is definitely not recommended (20F difference).

When letting it warm up, definitely loosen the lid of that jar somewhat, to give it a way to vent.

Needless to say, proper sanitation when handling yeast is good practice.

 

[TEWNCfarms]

Yeast should be stored refrigerated, but pitched at pitching temps, say 64-68F for most ale yeasts. Both the wort and yeast should be within 10F of each other, 5-7 degrees is even better, but I've never gone that far purposefully.

So in that light, yes, the jar of yeast slurry should be allowed to warm up to that temp, before pitching.
If there is a lot of liquid on top in the jar of harvested yeast, I usually decant most of it before letting it warm up. If it's a flask or jar with a cold crashed yeast starter, I pour off most of the supernatant (the starter beer on top) before putting it on the counter. I usually do this when I've started the boil.

That jar will be around pitching temps by the time the wort is in the bucket. It's not that critical, but pitching 55F yeast slurry (10F lower than optimal) into 75F wort (10F higher than optimal) is definitely not recommended (20F difference).

When letting it warm up, definitely loosen the lid of that jar somewhat, to give it a way to vent.

Needless to say, proper sanitation when handling yeast is good practice.

Awesome thanks for your help!

I’m brewing my second ever batch tomorrow, spiced winter al Extract kit from NB, using WYeast London ale. Going to make a 1L starter with DME and nutrient in cleaned water with the shaken not stirred method you mentioned, putting it in a gallon jug.

My question is, can I brew the starter wort tonight and just let it sit out over night and pitch the yeast in the morning? What about letting the yeast pack sit out overnight too? I was planning on pitching around 6am so that gives me around 12 hours to let it build. Thanks for your help!

 

[STMF]

Sure, absolutley.

 

[BobBailey]

so going to buy some kits this week, and one of them calls for the same type of yeast. Can I make a starter and use half of the starter for each 5 gallon batch from the 1 pack of liquid WYeast French Saison yeast? This would save me a lot of money.

Also can I save and keep feeding a starter just like a sourdough starter? I’d love to keep yeast I buy going so I don’t have to spend $10+/- every batch

Easiest and cheapest way is to do a starter for one batch and harvest yeast from it to use in the second batch. If you do this you'll only be using about 1/4 of the harvested yeast and can save the remainder for future batches.