Making Dopplebock with Ale Yeast! THE HORROR!

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Hey all,

One of my next scoldable attempts is making a Dopplebock with ale yeast instead of pilsner yeast.

Now you might ask yourself "Why would this Jacktard do something like this?". Well, for the sake of experimentation, I want to see how different the taste is. Now, per say, I have made Dopps in the past in air conditioned environments but I have a recipe that is a bit on the experimental side to go with it (I am using an experimental German Select hops with my normal recipe). Anywho, is it worth the effort to attempt the Dopplebock with an ale yeast, specifically Safbrew US-05 and, if so, has anyone attempted it or could predict the difference between using the two.

The importance, to me, as a brewer is to try it is because I am attempting to make beers that do not require special, expensive tools in order to make (in this case, an air conditioner). Living in California we have decent enough weather to allow most Ale yeast to cultivate and thrive at room temperature (except maybe 5 weeks out of the year, that is soda creation time for me). Let me know what you guys think!

 

[passedpawn]

Go for it. If you like it, awesome.

To be fair to yourself, buy a commercial version when you do your taste-testing just to note the differences. If they are great enough, you probably shouldn't be calling it a doppelbock.

 

[IslandLizard]

Dopplebockale

Go for it!

 

[cmac62]

Generally, lager yeast is noticeably crisp, with a clean finish. I don't know safeale yeast, but my understanding is that the ale yeast will add/change the mouth feel as well as the flavors added by the yeast. However, I regularly cold condition my beers when they are waiting for a spot in the keggerator. All beer will clear as it sits in a cold fridge. If the malt bill and hops are good you will have a good strong/old ale with some of the breadiness of the dopp sounds like a good beer to me.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Here's hoping it won't be a debockale

 

[Pkrd]

Don't get me started.

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Passedpawn - Part o' ta plan. Was going to get two of them to compare them to it. This beer will not be attempted till September, since I do my brewing low-tech and without Air Conditioning in California, but I am planning to order the grains and everything in August to be ready for it when the weather gets better.

cmac62 - I am using a partial mash of Munich LME (6lbs), 2lbs Vienna Malt, 2lbs Special B Malt Castle, 2lbs Carafa Special II, and 2lbs brown sugar. Hops is a twist too, 0.5oz Spalt and 0.5 German Select Hops (supposedly experimental). Hopefully that gives you an idea on my build. This is a mad science experiment so I will post a full recipe with gravity, abv, the works when September comes around.

Everyone else - I could be a crazy Dopplebockle. But if it makes you feel better I have a name for it already. Doppelter Ärger Hintern-Loch Streicheln. Which roughly translates to Double Trouble Butt-Hole Foddler. Since I might just be making something that is not just one trouble, but Dopple Trouble. b^^ Because it might, possibly, taste like ass but I don't mind playing mad scientist with beer, like my Dragon Fruit Swirl beer which turned out to be my best beer this summer! b^^

 

[z-bob]

I'm pretty sure it's been done before. You could also use W34/70 yeast and just keep it as cool as is practical; it's supposed to remain "lager-like" to about 70°. (I wonder if that's why they named it 34/70?)

Or call it "Bière de Garde" instead of Doppelbock.

Gopher it!

 

[triethylborane]

Passedpawn -
Everyone else - I could be a crazy Dopplebockle. But if it makes you feel better I have a name for it already. Doppelter Ärger Hintern-Loch Streicheln. Which roughly translates to Double Trouble Butt-Hole Foddler. Since I might just be making something that is not just one trouble, but Dopple Trouble.

Jacktardor.

Sounds interesting, love to hear how it turns out. I have not done this, but I do love doppelbocks, particularly my celebrator clone.

 

[tiredofbuyingbeer]

So Rogue has a Bock that uses pacman yeast. Could be an angle.

Also, Brulosophy has all of these xbeeriments where they claim that you can brew very lagerlike beers with Koelsch yeast. I would imagine the same is also true with Altbier-type yeast, which might be more the character that you'd associate with a Doppelbock.

It's worth keeping in mind that Bock as a style predates lagering as a brewing practice. Martin Luther drank Bock. So I wouldn't get too hung up on whether ale yeast makes it any less authentic.

 

[z-bob]

I'm pretty sure any all-malt beer with an OG over about 1.075 can be called "doppelbock". Color doesn't matter, and I doubt the yeast strain does either. Now, whether it should or not...

 

[NoIguanaForZ]

If I were gonna make a pseudo-lager I'd go with Nottingham rather than US-05. Especially if it's anything I'm even slightly interested in having clear before the sun burns out.

 

[bassmang4]

Made a schwartzbeir with 1056. Schwartzale

 

[Steveruch]

"Last Drop" in the March/April 2016 is about brewing "lagers" without temperature control. Wyeast 1764 is a very good yeast to do a pseudo lager with.

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Just as an update: I am still a bit behind on my brewing schedule due to certain issues coming up with family from the hurricanes. b^^ Let them come out to Cali to drink good beer and recover but I am still going to make this dopplebock with ale yeast soon. I have the ingredients for it and I just have to get this bier de garde brewed this weekend. Following this brew is the dopple, so it is still coming and I will post results.

 

[Miraculix]

if it makes you feel better I have a name for it already. Doppelter Ärger Hintern-Loch Streicheln. Which roughly translates to Double Trouble Butt-Hole Foddler. Since I might just be making something that is not just one trouble, but Dopple Trouble. b^^ Because it might, possibly, taste like ass but I don't mind playing mad scientist with beer, like my Dragon Fruit Swirl beer which turned out to be my best beer this summer! b^^

Sorry mate, but that sounds like gibberish.

The term double trouble doesn't exist in German, so you cannot translate it that way. And the second half is also incorrect.

Lets call it verärgerter arschloch grapscher!

 

[user 125772]

Sorry if this stirs up a hornet nest, but i'd just call it a brown ale if it wasn't lagered .

The very first lager I ever brewed was a doppel bock (made in the winter here in NC), turned out to be an outstanding beer, as I recall, it used 33 lbs of grain for the 11 gal batch. Anyway, a friend tried to brew it the next summer (with ale yeast) and it wasn't anywhere near close.

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

So the beer has been brewed. It is darker than the darkest butthole. It looks like a shwartzbier or stout for the most part and it has a pretty good taste when sampling the wort. The OG was lower than I was hoping at 1.054... but it is what it is. This beer was done as a partial mash.

I went light on the hops so I can really get a taste of the malt blend with the ale yeast, I know I am off my rocker for doing it this way, but it helps me really taste the grain build and yeast feel if I don't have too much hops in the way.

I just pitched the yeast today so I wanted to show the recipe. If it comes out as total ass I will not post an additional threat with the recipe and the results. I am a bit nervous, but I felt confident with the wort sampling... just didn't get the OG where I wanted it. If it doesn't taste like the devil's ass crack I might try again with a different grain build. Let me know what you think of this grain build in general.

Yield 5 gallons
6 lbs Munich Liquid Malt Extract
2 lbs Vienna Malt
2 lbs Special B Malt (Castle)
2 lbs Carafa Special II
0.5 German Spalt Hops (60 Minutes)
0.5 oz German Select Hops (60 Minutes)
Safale US-05 (I have used this yeast a lot with great results, so sticking to my guns on this one)

 

[Sadu]

Could it be possible that you didn't stir the wort super well before taking that OG sample? The extract could have sunk to the bottom leaving you thinner wort at the top where you took the sample from. Maybe your OG is just fine and all is well in the world?

If you are sure the OG is what it is, you could always add some more LME or DME. I think a big part of the attraction of the doppelbock is the big rich flavours which you might struggle to get at 1.054

Also that is a heavy hit of Carafa 2 in there. About twice the roasted malt that I would use in a stout so I wouldn't expect it to finish anything other than pitch black. Depending how much roast flavour you get from this it could taste more stouty than bocky, for better or worse.
Also a lot of Special B, see how you go but I would use much less than that amount personally. I find bocks have plenty of sweetness already from being high gravity and sod all hops, so you don't need a lot of crystal in there. Just a splash for flavour complexity, if at all.

How are you controlling fermentation temps? I'd want to ferment this one on the cooler side, otherwise you'll get yeast flavours getting in the way of your malts. Part of the attraction of the bocks is the super clean yeast and hop character so you can taste the malts properly.

Good luck, hope this works out for you

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Could it be possible that you didn't stir the wort super well before taking that OG sample? The extract could have sunk to the bottom leaving you thinner wort at the top where you took the sample from. Maybe your OG is just fine and all is well in the world?

If you are sure the OG is what it is, you could always add some more LME or DME. I think a big part of the attraction of the doppelbock is the big rich flavours which you might struggle to get at 1.054

Also that is a heavy hit of Carafa 2 in there. About twice the roasted malt that I would use in a stout so I wouldn't expect it to finish anything other than pitch black. Depending how much roast flavour you get from this it could taste more stouty than bocky, for better or worse.
Also a lot of Special B, see how you go but I would use much less than that amount personally. I find bocks have plenty of sweetness already from being high gravity and sod all hops, so you don't need a lot of crystal in there. Just a splash for flavour complexity, if at all.

How are you controlling fermentation temps? I'd want to ferment this one on the cooler side, otherwise you'll get yeast flavours getting in the way of your malts. Part of the attraction of the bocks is the super clean yeast and hop character so you can taste the malts properly.

Good luck, hope this works out for you

Yeah, I went nuts with the grain build like a *******. But I can take another sample and see if it different. If not, like you suggested, I could get some more LME/DME to bring it up. I could also try this again with a completely different grain build entirely since I am not throwing in the towel on this attempt just because I went insane when doing the grain build (again, like a *******)... I couldn't help myself.... MORE ROASTED GRAIN!!!! MORE CARAMEL!!! MOAR MOAR MOAR!!!

Oh crap, there I go again... need to stop drinking my 13% ABV Muscles from Brussels Quad. Perhaps I should stick to what I am good at! Stouts and Belgians. XD

 

[JacktardBrewmeister]

Ok. So the Doppbockale is done and on tap. It came out pretty good. It is a very light bodied dark beer using the ingredients listed above. I sat down and tried it with dopplebocks and surprisingly it isn't too muddled down because of the ale yeast. I will admit, though, that it is not crisp like a dopplebock, but the traits beyond that are there. My buddies and I all sat around trying to coin the idea of a German Porter or German Stout (effectively altering the recipe to get more body out of it in the future). I will post pics of it if you guys would like to see it. b^^ This is a good beer surprisingly... I expected a shitshow beer to pawn off to my buddies as a holiday gift, but for me, this is quite unexpected. I will use, in the future, Mangrove Jack California Lager yeast that has a better chance of giving me a closer to accurate Dopplebock (since I don't use temperature control). Anywho, it was kind of a strange success. Ask me any question you have about it and I will answer them. b^^