Making a sour

[Jag75]

Well we brewed the sour yesterday . Pitched yeast approximately 9pm. So Saturday evening we will toss in the Goodbellys.

Some side notes on our brew . My malt pipe was put in upside down and made it really difficult to put the top screen in . Took about 10 minutes to get it fixed but eventually got it right , started the recirc. Mashed at 149 for 60min. Looked like a good crush but our OG came out to 44 instead of 55 . The ph was too be 5.3 and ended up 5.5 too high for this beer imo. I checked the RO water and it came out to 16ppm. So wasnt happy about that as it should be 10 or less . We will see how this turns out . I'll keep you all informed

 

[Jag75]

We set a 1/2 gallon aside in a glass jug . Does anyone know how we could do a wild fermentation with this ? My son n law wants to experiment with it .

 

[RPh_Guy]

IMO you could add the GoodBelly now. US05 doesn't have much flavor that you'd want to express.

To capture wild yeast:
Aerate and acidify the wort to 4.0-4.5 and then swirl around some tree bark, flowers, leaves, organic fruit, your face, or whatever you want, and then apply an airlock. If you don't want it sour, toss in at least 2 grams of hops. Avoid the temptation to open it because there's a high likelihood of mold growth if there's any oxygen. Leave it for at least a month.
If there's no mold, smell.
If it smells ok, check gravity to verify fermentation occurred.
If it fermented, taste.
If it tastes good, use the slurry to make beer.

Cheers

 

[Jag75]

Dang this thing is taking off bigtime . Had to put a blow off on it .

@RPh_Guy - if I put the Goodbellys in now when should I dry hop. How sour will it get? Am i suppose to check ph as it goes then dry hop when ph is 3.3ish?

 

[Jag75]

Thanks RPh guy on the wild yeast we will try it !
Acidify with lemon juice or lactic acid?
What do you mean by use slurry to make beer?

 

[RPh_Guy]

if I put the Goodbellys in now when should I dry hop. How sour will it get? Am i suppose to check ph as it goes then dry hop when ph is 3.3ish?

I believe Goodbelly stops naturally around 3.2.

Check gravity & pH about 48 hours after pitching Lacto & give it a taste. That should give you an idea about how to proceed.

 

[Jag75]

Thanks man . I think I understand the wild fermentation. Your saying we would get the yeast from that not necessarily beer .

 

[RPh_Guy]

Acidify with lemon juice or lactic acid?
What do you mean by use slurry to make beer?

Whatever acid you want is fine. I use 88% lactic acid .. about 1mL for half a gallon should work.
After fermentation, dump the beer and just use part of the cake to pitch into new wort that you intend to drink.

Thanks man . I think I understand the wild fermentation. Your saying we would get the yeast from that not necessarily beer .

Yeah sorry, I didn't see the edit before I replied.

You're welcome to drink the beer for the first generation but it probably won't be very good.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have a packet from November (best by April 30th).... I'm planning to use it this week, so we'll see how it held up.

In case anyone cares... The old WLP644 was actively fermenting the starter after just a few hours on the stir plate.
I banked it.

 

[Jag75]

I really wanted to try that yeast . Next time I will make sure I have a fresh pack . If I had a few days until the brew day I would have bought the old yeast and seen if it revived . Glad yours woke up. This sour has been aggressively chugging for 48 hrs straight .

 

[cmac62]

Or a hop tea if I want just a touch of bitterness i'm guessing.

 

[cmac62]

Question, with the pre-boil method, why bring the wort to a boil. I'm doing a 150 sac rest and sparging at 170 for 30+ minutes doesn't that pasteurize the wort enough to go directly to the cool/pitch lacto phase? Thanks

 

[cactusgarrett]

Better insurance? Though, i would lean towards getting a good hot break (despite the (assumed) lack of hops).

 

[Jag75]

Question, with the pre-boil method, why bring the wort to a boil. I'm doing a 150 sac rest and sparging at 170 for 30+ minutes doesn't that pasteurize the wort enough to go directly to the cool/pitch lacto phase? Thanks

I'm not sure tbo. This is my first sour . I'm doing RPH guy method that hes done with success. Didnt want to do a traditional kettle sour .

We used no hops in the boil . Hops will be used dry hop to kill Lacto where we want the ph .

 

[RPh_Guy]

Question, with the pre-boil method, why bring the wort to a boil. I'm doing a 150 sac rest and sparging at 170 for 30+ minutes doesn't that pasteurize the wort enough to go directly to the cool/pitch lacto phase? Thanks

There have been too many cases of no-boil kettle sour beers getting contaminated. Thus pre-boiling a kettle sour is recommended.
My theory is that the heat from mashing doesn't fully sanitize the valve on the mash tun, heat doesn't fully sanitize other mashing equipment with dry areas, or the boil kettle is improperly cleaned/sanitized. Dry heat kills microbes less effectively than hot water at the same temperature, so stuff could survive on dry surfaces or inside valves. Hot side equipment is also more difficult to sanitize with surface sanitizer because of design and difficulty cleaning.

Co-souring is a good alternative to kettle souring in my opinion, and carries less risk of spoiling the batch.
Cheers

I've had good results with both hop tea and dry hops

Hops will be used dry hop to kill Lacto where we want the ph .

FYI the Lacto is still alive after you add hops; it just stops them from doing anything further.
E.g. you still get a probiotic effect from drinking the beer for whatever that's worth.

 

[cmac62]

There have been too many cases of no-boil kettle sour beers getting contaminated. Thus pre-boiling a kettle sour is recommended.
My theory is that the heat from mashing doesn't fully sanitize the valve on the mash tun, heat doesn't fully sanitize other mashing equipment with dry areas, or the boil kettle is improperly cleaned/sanitized. Dry heat kills microbes less effectively than hot water at the same temperature, so stuff could survive on dry surfaces or inside valves. Hot side equipment is also more difficult to sanitize with surface sanitizer because of design and difficulty cleaning.

Co-souring is a good alternative to kettle souring in my opinion, and carries less risk of spoiling the batch.
Cheers

I've had good results with both hop tea and dry hops


FYI the Lacto is still alive after you add hops; it just stops them from doing anything further.
E.g. you still get a probiotic effect from drinking the beer for whatever that's worth.

Thanks for the reply. That is what I have been reading in other online docs as well. I guess boiling is a cheep insurance against other infections.

 

[Jag75]

Update . So SG was 44 . The FG is .08 so 4.725 ABV . We pitched the Lacto 24 hours after the yeast so it's been a week today. The ph is 3.49 if my meter is correct . It has perfect sourness to it they say . I tried it and it wasnt sour to the point your glands pucker . Will be racking over 5lbs of blueberries for about a week then bottle .

 

[cmac62]

Update . So SG was 44 . The FG is .08 so 4.725 ABV . We pitched the Lacto 24 hours after the yeast so it's been a week today. The ph is 3.49 if my meter is correct . It has perfect sourness to it they say . I tried it and it wasnt sour to the point your glands pucker . Will be racking over 5lbs of blueberries for about a week then bottle . View attachment 630055

This sounds like a success. I'll definitely try this option for my next kettle sour.

 

[cmac62]

Rph, do you recommend using a starter for the lacto? I have read online that it can be beneficial. Thanks

 

[RPh_Guy]

Rph, do you recommend using a starter for the lacto? I have read online that it can be beneficial. Thanks

When post-souring? Yes. Take a little of the chilled wort from the batch to make the starter. Add the L plantarum and some calcium carbonate. Cover and leave at room temp. Pitch it 48 hours after adding the yeast (assuming fermentation is well underway), decanting off of the calcium carbonate.

Cheers

 

[cmac62]

When post-souring? Yes. Take a little of the chilled wort from the batch to make the starter. Add the L plantarum and some calcium carbonate. Cover and leave at room temp. Pitch it 48 hours after adding the yeast (assuming fermentation is well underway), decanting off of the calcium carbonate.

Cheers

Thanks for the reply, will get around to this eventually.

 

[Jag75]

5 #s of blueberries and I had to put a blow off on it again. Didnt think it would ferment too much so we filled up as much as we could . I imagine the FG of 1.008 will probably change to 1.005-6

 

[Jag75]

Okay guys any of you that has made sours please advise me on the botteling process. I'm a little Leary of what the calculator gave me . I was thinking around 3.0 volumes . It gave me the amount of 7 oz of priming sugar. This sour has kicked into gear again after racking over the blueberries. I really dont want bottle bombs .

Double checked and I was wrong . Its saying 5.8 oz

 

[RPh_Guy]

Okay guys, any of you that have made sours please advise me on the bottling process. I'm a little leary of what the calculator gave me. I was thinking around 3.0 volumes. It gave me the amount of 7 oz of priming sugar. This sour has kicked into gear again after racking over the blueberries. I really don't want bottle bombs.

Priming a Lacto/fast sour is no different than priming a clean beer.
3 volumes is good.

There would only be an issue if the blueberries introduced a contaminant.

 

[Jag75]

How would I know if the blueberries introduced a contamination?

 

[RPh_Guy]

How would I know if the blueberries introduced a contamination?

Off-flavors(s), pellicle, or over-carbonation.

 

[Jag75]

I cant even see the top . The berries floated up to the top . And it looks like co2 bubbles floating up to the bung . I have a blow off tube on it because it came up through the airlock. It even had so much pressure berries and hops plugged the tube causing the bung to pop off slightly , spilling some out over the side .

 

[cactusgarrett]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but you've had your beer on blueberries for less than a week, yeah? Typically with fruit, you'll need something like at least 4 weeks contact time to impart the fruit flavor. Even more if you're using a "softer" flavored fruit (like blueberries) or a strong base that the fruit has to cut through.

In this time, whatever additional sugars the fruit introduce should be fermented away by the time you'd be bottling. You'll be bottling after a consistent FG, so the addition of berries won't affect the amount of priming sugar you'd need.

 

[Jag75]

Yeah I'll check the FG before I bottle . I'm assuming it dropped . It's been a week tomorrow. I used frozen ones . I defrosted before adding them in . They've already turned white . Dang I figured a week would be enough to be on the berries .

 

[cactusgarrett]

Dang I figured a week would be enough to be on the berries .

Milk the Funk suggests 6-8 weeks contact time for blueberries; why i suggested at least 4 weeks.

 

[isomerization]

Yeah I'll check the FG before I bottle . I'm assuming it dropped . It's been a week tomorrow. I used frozen ones . I defrosted before adding them in . They've already turned white . Dang I figured a week would be enough to be on the berries .

In my experience, you’ve likely gotten all the fruit flavor out of these berries and will only serve to extract things like tannins from the berry skin with extended contact time. Maybe you want that?

This is a quick sour correct? You aren’t dealing with a mixed culture that has been in a fermenter for months/years as well. I believe a lot of the advice for longer fruit contact time is geared towards that environment.

Stable FG is the key indicator if you’re bottling.

Edit: Adding quote from Milk the Funk

“When adding fruit to a non-pasteurized beer that does not contain living Brettanomyces but does contain living S. cerevisiae (for example, kettle sours), a re-fermentation will often occur a day or two after adding the fruit. This re-fermentation can last 1-2 weeks until the sugars from the fruit are fermented.”

 

[Jag75]

Yeah it's a post sour method from RPH Guy. It definitely kicked off a 2nd fermentation . I read the milk the funk . What a great read . If I understand right my beer will only change 1.1% . Crazy to think that could take 1 - 2 weeks . I cant speak of flavor extractions from using whole fruits cuz I was a virgin until now lol. I popped my Blueberry Haha. I'm basically relying on the stuff I read and all of your guidance which I really appreciate. After I learn this sour stuff i can pass it along . This method is so simple . We've tried the beer when I had to let some out do to headspace and the blueberry taste was really starting to come through. I used goodbellys blueberry acai juice for the souring . The kids think the sourness is perfect. So far so good . I will keep everyone updated .

 

[isomerization]

Yeah it's a post sour method from RPH Guy. It definitely kicked off a 2nd fermentation . I read the milk the funk . What a great read . If I understand right my beer will only change 1.1% . Crazy to think that could take 1 - 2 weeks . I cant speak of flavor extractions from using whole fruits cuz I was a virgin until now lol. I popped my Blueberry Haha. I'm basically relying on the stuff I read and all of your guidance which I really appreciate. After I learn this sour stuff i can pass it along . This method is so simple . We've tried the beer when I had to let some out do to headspace and the blueberry taste was really starting to come through. I used goodbellys blueberry acai juice for the souring . The kids think the sourness is perfect. So far so good . I will keep everyone updated .

Glad it’s working great for you!

Regarding abv changes, most often you will actually go down in abv. Fruit has lots of water, so only very sugar rich fruits (or in low abv beers) will see an actual increase versus dilution.

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Or dried fruits!

 

[Jag75]

A little update all. Beer is sitting at 1.008/9. Gonna let it sit for 3 more days to see how much more blueberry flavor we can extract. The color of the beer is really nice .

 

[Jag75]

A big shout out @RPh_Guy , thank you for sharing this method . It was really easy doing a sour this way. Got it bottled and last bottle only half way full and the kids just drank it . They are really excited about this beer ( they helped me along the way )
and they said they are happy with the color and taste .

Anybody wanting to do a sour but leary of doing a kettle sour should look into doing post sour . Thank you all in here who gave advice and their thoughts .

 

[RPh_Guy]

Looks great! Nice labels.
Did you dry hop it?

 

[Jag75]

Looks great! Nice labels.
Did you dry hop it?

Thank you! yes we dry hopped it with Azacca if I remember right

 

[isomerization]

Thank you! yes we dry hopped it with Azacca if I remember right

Should have gone full in on the blueberry with some Mosaic!

 

[Jag75]

Should have gone full in on the blueberry with some Mosaic!

May have to try that one next . They're already talking about making another one .