Making a sour

[Jag75]

@RPh_Guy , gotta give you a shout out . I will take homebrew to my LHBS and share as they also share when I go in. I dropped off a bottle of the sour . While on my trip to WSBK races in Laguna I received a text from the owner. He said that he absolutely loved the sour and said it wasnt just sour and that the blueberry flavor was perfect . He said he it's nice to have a sour and taste the fruit and that I nailed it . Of course I told him it was your process and he was intrigued by it . It's safe to say when asked to make a sour again , which wont be long as the kids are going through it , it will be done the same way . No need for kettle sour !

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Another successful convert.

 

[TwistedGray]

@RPh_Guy , gotta give you a shout out . I will take homebrew to my LHBS and share as they also share when I go in. I dropped off a bottle of the sour . While on my trip to WSBK races in Laguna I received a text from the owner. He said that he absolutely loved the sour and said it wasnt just sour and that the blueberry flavor was perfect . He said he it's nice to have a sour and taste the fruit and that I nailed it . Of course I told him it was your process and he was intrigued by it . It's safe to say when asked to make a sour again , which wont be long as the kids are going through it , it will be done the same way . No need for kettle sour !

Ah - didn't know anyone else from HBT was going out to Laguna, doh! I was there Saturday for a bit.

 

[Jag75]

Ah - didn't know anyone else from HBT was going out to Laguna, doh! I was there Saturday for a bit.

Oh yeah , we go every year . We hang out by turn 1 . I hear Moto GP will possibly be back

 

[TwistedGray]

Oh yeah , we go every year . We hang out by turn 1 . I hear Moto GP will possibly be back

The good ole' days.

I usually go up the Corckscrew hill a few tens of feet and watch Turns 1, 2, 3, and part of 4 before they disappear. They reappear on turns 9 and 10.

 

[Soulshine2]

After more reading and watching YouTube I see that 1qt of goodbellys yogurt does the job.

wait...what??? youre pitching live culture yogurt into your wort to sour it???

 

[cactusgarrett]

wait...what??? youre pitching live culture yogurt into your wort to sour it???

Not uncommon. I know of a couple commercial breweries doing this, too.

 

[Jag75]

wait...what??? youre pitching live culture yogurt into your wort to sour it???

I used goodbellys juice . Didnt go with the yogurt.

 

[deadwolfbones]

wait...what??? youre pitching live culture yogurt into your wort to sour it???

You don't want to use yogurt per se because of the fats, but Plantarum is the same lacto bacteria found in yogurt, and also in Goodbelly shots and drinks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

You don't want to use yogurt per se because of the fats, but Plantarum is the same lacto bacteria found in yogurt, and also in Goodbelly shots and drinks.

Which brands of yogurt have L plantarum?

 

[TwistedGray]

Which brands of yogurt have L plantarum?

Trick question, no?

 

[Jag75]

Dont most yogurts contain it?

 

[TwistedGray]

Dont most yogurts contain it?

The main (starter) cultures in yogurt are Lactobacillus bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus. (source: Google)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Trick question, no?

I don't know of any yogurts that contain L plantarum or a culture that does well at room temp.
I'm not sure if that makes it a trick

 

[deadwolfbones]

I don't know of any yogurts that contain L plantarum or a culture that does well at room temp.
I'm not sure if that makes it a trick

Yeah, sorry. Not sure where that brain fart came from. You're correct, of course.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I’ve been wanting to make a kettle sour for a while now and this thread has made me decide to do it. I understand the concept pretty well but here are the steps I’m
thinking I’m going to try. Please feel free to suggest or point out anything I’m missing or doing wrong. This will be my first attempt at the style.

1. Mash as usual - will use 70% 2 row, 30% white wheat. Is there any reason not to shoot for a beer in the 6-7% alcohol range? Or is lower alcohol necessary?

2. Boil for 15 minutes with no hops at all.

3. Cool to about 90 degrees. Transfer into
My standard fermenter.

4. Pitch omega Voss yeast. I intentionally underpitch which leads to a lagtime of about 12 hours, but once it gets going it can blow through a wort up to 1.070 in about 48 hours. I have the ability to keep it warm the whole time. Around 95 degrees.

5. About 24 hours post voss pitch, pitch omega’s lacto blend. (Whole pouch)

6. Let the yeast ferment as it normally would. Once fermentation has completely died down, dry hop with about an ounce or two of hops to stop the souring process. I understand this won’t kill the lacto but it will stop any further souring.

7. Transfer to keg as I normally would, adding any fruit directly to the keg. Or should I add fruit directly to the fermenter, then transfer to the keg once I feel enough flavor has been extracted?

I don’t have a ph meter at this time and I’m ok with not knowing exactly how sour or tart it will be until I try it...it’ll be like a fun surprise.

But overall does this look like a solid plan?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Soulshine2]

I’ve been wanting to make a kettle sour for a while now and this thread has made me decide to do it. I understand the concept pretty well but here are the steps I’m
thinking I’m going to try. Please feel free to suggest or point out anything I’m missing or doing wrong. This will be my first attempt at the style.

1. Mash as usual - will use 70% 2 row, 30% white wheat. Is there any reason not to shoot for a beer in the 6-7% alcohol range? Or is lower alcohol necessary?

2. Boil for 15 minutes with no hops at all.

3. Cool to about 90 degrees. Transfer into
My standard fermenter.

4. Pitch omega Voss yeast. I intentionally underpitch which leads to a lagtime of about 12 hours, but once it gets going it can blow through a wort up to 1.070 in about 48 hours. I have the ability to keep it warm the whole time. Around 95 degrees.

5. About 24 hours post voss pitch, pitch omega’s lacto blend. (Whole pouch)

6. Let the yeast ferment as it normally would. Once fermentation has completely died down, dry hop with about an ounce or two of hops to stop the souring process. I understand this won’t kill the lacto but it will stop any further souring.

7. Transfer to keg as I normally would, adding any fruit directly to the keg. Or should I add fruit directly to the fermenter, then transfer to the keg once I feel enough flavor has been extracted?

I don’t have a ph meter at this time and I’m ok with not knowing exactly how sour or tart it will be until I try it...it’ll be like a fun surprise.

But overall does this look like a solid plan?

Thanks in advance.

Thank you so much for that ...NOW, I understand

 

[RPh_Guy]

I’ve been wanting to make a kettle sour for a while now and this thread has made me decide to do it. I understand the concept pretty well but here are the steps I’m
thinking I’m going to try. Please feel free to suggest or point out anything I’m missing or doing wrong. This will be my first attempt at the style.

1. Mash as usual - will use 70% 2 row, 30% white wheat. Is there any reason not to shoot for a beer in the 6-7% alcohol range? Or is lower alcohol necessary?

2. Boil for 15 minutes with no hops at all.

3. Cool to about 90 degrees.

4. Pitch omega Voss yeast. I intentionally underpitch which leads to a lagtime of about 12 hours, but once it gets going it can blow through a wort up to 1.070 in about 48 hours. I have the ability to keep it warm the whole time.

5. About 24 hours post voss pitch, pitch omega’s lacto blend. (Whole pouch)

6. Let the yeast ferment as it normally would. Once fermentation has completely died down, dry hop with about an ounce or two of hops to stop the souring process. I understand this won’t kill the lacto but it will stop any further souring.

7. Transfer to keg as I normally would, adding any fruit directly to the keg. Or should I add fruit directly to the fermenter, then transfer to the keg once I feel enough flavor has been extracted?

I don’t have a ph meter at this time and I’m ok with not knowing exactly how sour or tart it will be until I try it...it’ll be like a fun surprise.

But overall does this look like a solid plan?

Thanks in advance.

Sounds good to me!

Put fruit in the fermenter and let it ferment.

FYI, this isn't a "kettle sour" process. I call it a "post-sour" process, as in it sours after some yeast fermentation.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Should I add it after the initial fermentation has ended? And just drop it right in there? (Softly) I’ve never added fruit before and I usually make extremely oxygen sensitive neipas. I’m assuming because there are so few hops in this beer that it won’t be nearly as susceptible to oxidation.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Sounds good to me!

Put fruit in the fermenter and let it ferment.

FYI, this isn't a "kettle sour" process. I call it a "post-sour" process, as in it sours after some yeast fermentation.

Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I’ve read the lacto needs sugars to sour, so any concern with a super fast fermentation like that of which Voss at a high temperature will produce? It seems the yeast and Lacto will be competing for the same sugars, and if the yeast eats them up quickly there may not be enough for the lacto to sour...or I may just be crazy.

 

[Jag75]

I racked onto the blueberries in a clean carboy . It kicked fermentation up again. No issues with oxidation . Then I dry hopped . It sat on the berries for 1.5 weeks I think.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I racked onto the blueberries in a clean carboy . It kicked fermentation up again. No issues with oxidation . Then I dry hopped . It sat on the berries for 1.5 weeks I think.

Would you see any issues adding the fruit directly to the primary? I’ll prob make a purée as well as I believe it will flavor much faster.

 

[TwistedGray]

Should I add it after the initial fermentation has ended? And just drop it right in there? (Softly) I’ve never added fruit before and I usually make extremely oxygen sensitive neipas. I’m assuming because there are so few hops in this beer that it won’t be nearly as susceptible to oxidation.

In my experience, I add post fermentation. Remember, the fruit will cause fermentation to begin again because the fruit has sugars in it.

 

[TwistedGray]

Would you see any issues adding the fruit directly to the primary? I’ll prob make a purée as well as I believe it will flavor much faster.

I've added fruit directly to the primary - no issues.

 

[Jag75]

I'm not sure. I just rack onto by putting hose down and push with co2. I didnt want to pour the fruit in. With fruit it kicks up fermentation a bit . Not too bad . However there is water in frozen fruit so it balanced out pretty good . If you use dry fruit you get a higher abv if I remember right .

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I’ve read the lacto needs sugars to sour, so any concern with a super fast fermentation like that of which Voss at a high temperature will produce? It seems the yeast and Lacto will be competing for the same sugars, and if the yeast eats them up quickly there may not be enough for the lacto to sour...or I may just be crazy.

I don't under-pitch kveik, I use a whole pouch and it produces a very high amount of esters when held at 95°F (I've used both Voss and Hornindal).

For a Hornindal sour I made, I pitched the L. plantarum 12 hours after the Hornindal, since fermentation was well underway. It was an excellent beer -- lots of pineapple and mango. I did not add hops or fruit to it.

If your lag time is 12 hours with your preferred kveik pitch rate, I think pitching Lacto at 20-24 hours is good. Don't worry about it not souring enough.
Taste it before adding hops or fruit.

Adding fruit directly to primary is fine as long as there's physical space for it, and the resulting fermentation. Fruit tends to create more foam/blow-off.

Cheers

 

[Jag75]

I found out about the space and fermentation from the fruit . Had to use a blow off tube

 

[HopsAreGood]

I don't under-pitch kveik, I use a whole pouch and it produces a very high amount of esters when held at 95°F (I've used both Voss and Hornindal).

For a Hornindal sour I made, I pitched the L. plantarum 12 hours after the Hornindal, since fermentation was well underway. It was an excellent beer -- lots of pineapple and mango. I did not add hops or fruit to it.

If your lag time is 12 hours with your preferred kveik pitch rate, I think pitching Lacto at 20-24 hours is good. Don't worry about it not souring enough.
Taste it before adding hops or fruit.

Adding fruit directly to primary is fine as long as there's physical space for it, and the resulting fermentation. Fruit tends to create more foam/blow-off.

Cheers

So basically pitching the lacto anywhere from 6-12 hours after fermentation has really begun should be fine?

 

[RPh_Guy]

So basically pitching the lacto anywhere from 6-12 hours after fermentation has really begun should be fine?

Specifically for kveik because it ferments so quickly, yes.

For normal yeast, Lacto 24-48 hours after yeast pitch is good.

This delayed pitch allows the yeast to fully contribute flavor before being suppressed by acid.

 

[TwistedGray]

Specifically for kveik because it ferments so quickly, yes.

For normal yeast, Lacto 24-48 hours after yeast pitch is good.

This delayed pitch allows the yeast to fully contribute flavor before being suppressed by acid.

So you are also saying that if you do not want yeast to contribute flavor, fully, you can pitch earlier in the process.

 

[RPh_Guy]

So you are also saying that if you do not want yeast to contribute flavor, fully, you can pitch earlier in the process.

Right, acidity suppresses yeast expression.

Pre-soured wort fermented with US-05 is lager-like.
Post-soured beer (delayed bacteria) has full yeast expression. Great for flavorful yeast.
Co-soured beer (both pitched at the same time) is somewhere in the middle, depending on various factors. Most convenient.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If I added lactose to the boil would it be consumed by the lactobacillus? I know sacch can not ferment lactose but this is all a bit new to me. If it does then the only way to add lactose to one of these beers would be to kill the bacteria first by boiling it again, then adding the lactose. Is this correct?

 

[Jag75]

Dont add lactose to the boil. In a post sour you mash and boil normal. The lacto comes after the yeast you pitch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I added lactose to the boil would it be consumed by the lactobacillus? I know sacch can not ferment lactose but this is all a bit new to me. If it does then the only way to add lactose to one of these beers would be to kill the bacteria first by boiling it again, then adding the lactose. Is this correct?

It's fine to add lactose in the boil. It will still be left unfermented.

Lactobacilli consume very little of the sugar in beer. They are self-limiting; they stop eating sugar (producing acid) once the pH drops to a certain point, around 3.1-3.3 for most available strains.

Hope this makes sense

 

[Beer666]

I don't under-pitch kveik, I use a whole pouch and it produces a very high amount of esters when held at 95°F (I've used both Voss and Hornindal).

For a Hornindal sour I made, I pitched the L. plantarum 12 hours after the Hornindal, since fermentation was well underway. It was an excellent beer -- lots of pineapple and mango. I did not add hops or fruit to it.

If your lag time is 12 hours with your preferred kveik pitch rate, I think pitching Lacto at 20-24 hours is good. Don't worry about it not souring enough.
Taste it before adding hops or fruit.

Adding fruit directly to primary is fine as long as there's physical space for it, and the resulting fermentation. Fruit tends to create more foam/blow-off.

Cheers

I have only tried pitching lacto with voss at the same time. Fermented at 37c. The beer was only slightly sour but was very nice and drinkable. I have tried once to pitch the lacto first but it smelled of vomit within a few hours (was a no boil wort).
Is it a good idea to ferment in the 30's? Would you recommend boiling the wort before souring or is pasteurisation enough?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have only tried pitching lacto with voss at the same time. Fermented at 37c. The beer was only slightly sour but was very nice and drinkable. I have tried once to pitch the lacto first but it smelled of vomit within a few hours (was a no boil wort).
Is it a good idea to ferment in the 30's? Would you recommend boiling the wort before souring or is pasteurisation enough?

The kveik are best when fermented at the upper end of their listed temperature range. Around 33-38°C (90-100°F) is preferred.
Lactobacillus plantarum is the preferred species for quick souring. No hops until it's sour.

With adequate sanitation you don't need to boil when co-souring or post-souring. The risk of contamination is very low with these processes (especially when you correctly adjust your mash pH or use extract). However I generally boil because it's even less risky; it's difficult to properly sanitize the hot side equipment with surface sanitizers.

I definitely recommend boiling and pre-acidifying the wort when pre-souring; the contamination risk is much higher.

 

[Beer666]

The kveik are best when fermented at the upper end of their listed temperature range. Around 33-38°C (90-100°F) is preferred.
Lactobacillus plantarum is the preferred species for quick souring. No hops until it's sour.

With adequate sanitation you don't need to boil when co-souring or post-souring. The risk of contamination is very low with these processes (especially when you correctly adjust your mash pH or use extract). However I generally boil because it's even less risky; it's difficult to properly sanitize the hot side equipment with surface sanitizers.

I definitely recommend boiling and pre-acidifying the wort when pre-souring; the contamination risk is much higher.

Thanks really helpful, starting to get my head around it now. Is it ok to use enough acid malt to get to a 4.5 ph? I do not have a ph meter?

 

[Jag75]

Rph , when you boil a kettle sour doesnt that stop the souring? So if you add the lacto in as your boiling wouldn't it be a waste of lacto?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Dont add lactose to the boil. In a post sour you mash and boil normal. The lacto comes after the yeast you pitch.

Right...that I understand. What I mean is if I mash as usual, then do a 15 minute boil just to kill any nasties, then chill to about 90, pitch my yeast, then pitch the lactobacillus about 12 hours later. I’m asking if adding the lactose during that initial 15 minute boil (I usually add it with about 5-10 minutes left) would be problematic down the road once I introduce the lactobacillus. I would not be boiling the beer again. Hope that clears it up.

As I re-read this are you thinking lactose and lactobacillus are the same thing? Lactose is milk sugar that will give a creamy mouthfeel and lactobacillus is obviously the bacteria. I can’t quite tell so forgive me if I’m assuming incorrectly.

 

[HopsAreGood]

It's fine to add lactose in the boil. It will still be left unfermented.

Lactobacilli consume very little of the sugar in beer. They are self-limiting; they stop eating sugar (producing acid) once the pH drops to a certain point, around 3.1-3.3 for most available strains.

Hope this makes sense

Great. So there won’t be any weird interactions that take place between lactose (milk sugar) and lactobacillus at any point that will cause off flavors or anything undesirable?