Lowering mash pH (5.2 stabilizer does not work...)

[user 214470]

I finally got myself a pH meter (a decent one from lab equipment store).

Brewed a batch of Blonde Ale today and used it for the first time. My tap water pH is 7.6. My mash pH (100% Pilsner) was 6.3 after 10 minutes after doughing-in. I realized it was way too high so I used "5.2 Stabilizer by Five Star". 60 minutes later I batch sparged, and the resulting wort had the pH of 6.4 – So I guess "5.2 stabilizer" didn't work in my case?

What should I do to lower the mash pH to 5.2~5.6 range? Would acidulated malt work any better than "5.2 stabilizer"? In my case I would need to lower a pH by 1.0, so that would require 10% of my grist to be acidulated malt – isn't that too much?

 

[RPh_Guy]

"5.2 stabilizer does not work" ... That is correct.

- Calibrate your meter before each use.
- Measure samples at room temperature.
- You need to know your water chemistry.
- Use a water calculator like brun water to target mash pH.
- Consider using RO water if your alkalinity or other minerality is high.
- Use lactic acid or phosphoric acid.
- Don't bother trying to adjust on the fly.

 

[day_trippr]

You can toss the 5.2 Stabilizer. It apparently only works in one specific brewery.

Next, you need to know the mineral/salt make-up of your water to be able to predictably adjust the mash pH using any type of acid/acidulated malt, otherwise you'll be chasing pH during the mash which never really works out well. Get a good water report.

Finally, there are a number of software applications that will take your water and grain bill and produce an estimated mash pH that you can then adjust with the use of mineral salts and the acid of your choice...

Cheers!

 

[myndflyte]

I agree with everything said so far. Just toss that 5.2 stabilizer. Instead of using acidulated malt, I'd rather use phosphoric or lactic acid, as I feel like that is more accurate.

I would suggest using something like Brun water to help you. There is a useful intro section to water chemistry in it. Read it and then read it again until you start to understand it. Then find/get a water report for your area so you have some idea what is already in your water. You may find that it is easier to just start from distilled water and build your water profiles that way.

I also agree with not chasing mash pH. My strategy is to make my water adjustments and take a pH measurement. If I'm off my mark, I can make adjustments in later batches. As long as I'm close to my target, it'll be good enough.

 

[user 214470]

To answer some questions:

- My pH meter was calibrated, and I used it 2 days after calibration, so I'm pretty confident what it says (at least for now).
- The meter automatically adapts to temperature (I've made sure by testing room temperature water and hot water - same pH).
- I don't have a detailed water report, but I have a "basic" local report: Chloride 5.91 ppm, Sulfate 11 ppm, Iron 0.152 ppm.

I don't want to dive very deep into water chemistry, I was under impression you need to at least dial in the correct mash pH for a decent beer. And as I now realize - it's pretty much impossible without analyzing the detailed water report?

P.S. I also added Calcium Chloride to my water during this brew as I wanted to change my Chloride:Sulfate ratio from 1:2 (as I know from the report), to 8:1 (90 ppm Calcium Chloride : 11ppm Sulfate) – I wanted to have a maltier beer (also mashed at 156'F).

All in all, I wouldn't be too worried if my mash pH would be on the high side of the "Perfect range", but 6.4 seems really high to me...

 

[myndflyte]

Water chemistry seems daunting but after you read a little bit, you realize it's just like any other part of the brewing process. A water report will help to put you in the right direction of salts to add.

One suggestion though about the pH meter. Even though it does have automatic temp correction, I would suggest only taking measurements at or near room temp. That is the optimal temp for the meter and higher temps will reduce the lifespan of your pH probe.

 

[SEndorf]

Agree with all the above advice.
I understand you don't want to dive too deep into water chemistry, but you've already invested in a Ph meter and you need to realistically allow for some form of learning curve. Tools such as Bru n'water will allow for this. Plug in your water report numbers and it will do the work for you. Just takes a bit of practice to understand the program.
An often quoted line here in the forums - "5.2 stabilizer works great.... if you don't happen to own a Ph meter"....

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I look at water chemistry this way:

You can do the really deep dive and try to understand all the actual chemistry

or...

You can just learn enough to understand how to adjust your water for better beer.

Option 2 is the route I took and it's working out great so far. I don't necessarily know the details of the chemistry, but I know enough to be able to research what water profile I want and to be able to play with Bru'n Water to get there.

My process:
Figure out my target profile You can use the semi-generic ones in Bru'n water for many beers, but you probably want to research a bit more for some beers (like NEIPAs).

Figure out your target pH. I usually target 5.3 for pale ales and IPAs and such, and shoot for 5.5 or so for stouts and porters (mainly because I read that the higher pH can smooth out the roastiness of those beers).

Now it's just a relatively easy learning curve with Bru'n Water to learn which elements do what to the profile and pH. When I first started, I really would spend a bunch of time working up what to add to get to where I wanted to be, but now I can get there very quickly.

My approach requires far less knowledge of chemistry. I took chem in college, but that was 35 years ago and I don't remember much.

Learning at least how to tweak the water profile and get close to your pH target is well worth the effort. It really is one of the elements in going from decent beer to "Wow!" beer IMO. A few hours and a half dozen brewing sessions and you'll be an old hand at it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My pH meter was calibrated, and I used it 2 days after calibration, so I'm pretty confident what it says (at least for now).

All right, as long as you're confident! Ignore the experts.

You won't be very successful targeting a mash pH without knowing your starting water chemistry. Think Pin the Tail on the Donkey after being spun around.

I use RO water so I don't need to worry about my local water or adding too much acid.

Water chemistry is one of the most important parts of brewing. Why people ignore it, I don't know.

 

[user 214470]

Water chemistry seems daunting but after you read a little bit, you realize it's just like any other part of the brewing process. A water report will help to put you in the right direction of salts to add.

One suggestion though about the pH meter. Even though it does have automatic temp correction, I would suggest only taking measurements at or near room temp. That is the optimal temp for the meter and higher temps will reduce the lifespan of your pH probe.

Well I guess without the water report I won't get anywhere... So for now, I'll at least try using acidulated malt next time and see if it helps. Buying distilled would be insanely pricey where I live (water would cost more than malt itself).

Thanks for the tip about room temp pH readings, I'll use this practice in my next batch. (but the pH probe can be replaced in the worst case).

 

[user 214470]

All right, as long as you're confident! Ignore the experts.

You won't be very successful targeting a mash pH without knowing your starting water chemistry. Think Pin the Tail on the Donkey after being spun around.

I use RO water so I don't need to worry about my local water or adding too much acid.

Water chemistry is one of the most important parts of brewing. Why people ignore it, I don't know.

I didn't want to angry you, I apoligize if I did. And by no means I'm ignoring the experts! I just wanted to say that I'm pretty confident with the fact of my "bad reading" – as 6.4 is way out of the preferred range (it's pretty clear it's out of the range even if the meter is only remotely accurate).

 

[mabrungard]

See! This is the problem. 5.2 works fine as long as you don't have a meter. You screwed up!!!

Welcome to the realization that there really is snake oil out there. At least you learned the truth with an instrument you can trust. Hopefully you didn't dose your beer too much and end up with seawater.

You don't have to get deep into water, but learning a few simple techniques can help immensely. The Water Primer that AJ created in the Brew Science forum is an example. Simple additions for many applications. Of course, your tap water complicates that a bit since you'll need to find what the simple additions should be to fit broad ranges of beer styles. You can trial and error your way to answers or you can employ software. Either way will eventually work for you.

 

[user 214470]

See! This is the problem. 5.2 works fine as long as you don't have a meter. You screwed up!!!

Welcome to the realization that there really is snake oil out there. At least you learned the truth with an instrument you can trust.

You bet! I only bought 5.2 stabilizer because of the good reviews in my LHBS website (most buyers claimed +10~15% better efficiency), so I thought I'll give a shot too.. I always felt that something was not right with my beer as it's always too watery, a bit astringent and lacking malty taste, even after higher temp mashing. Well at least I now know the pH is not collaborating...

 

[RPh_Guy]

I didn't want to angry you, I apoligize if I did. And by no means I'm ignoring the experts! I just wanted to say that I'm pretty confident with the fact of my "bad reading" – as 6.4 is way out of the preferred range (it's pretty much clear it's out of the range even if the meter is only remotely accurate).

Not angry
You're just wasting your time taking measurements if it's not calibrated... But yeah, it's probably not in range.

Also FYI the calibration solutions degrade over time. Keep them refrigerated for best results and replace at least once a year. Proper probe storage helps maintain accuracy. Treat it well and it'll treat you well!

Cheers & good luck.

 

[user 214470]

Not angry
You're just wasting your time taking measurements if it's not calibrated... But yeah, it's probably not in range.

Also FYI the calibration solutions degrade over time. Keep them refrigerated for best results and replace at least once a year. Proper probe storage helps maintain accuracy. Treat it well and it'll treat you well!

Cheers & good luck.

To clear things up, this is the short story:

I bought the pH meter in lab equipment store, and I paid extra so they calibrated the meter (they offer such service) in front of my eyes, they used "two point calibration" (they used 7.01 and 4.01 solutions). And after that calibration, two days passed and I used it in the brew day. I also stored the meter as they instructed – a few drops of tap water (not distilled) in the probe cap if meter is used often, and dry storage if meter is used once or twice a month (in that case the probe has to be soaked ~2 hours in tap water before use).
So, I believe that result of 6.4 should be fairly true/real.

 

[z-bob]

You need to add acid. Lactic acid, phosphoric acid, or acid malt. One of my next steps dealing with highly-alkaline water is going to be making my own lactic acid.

But a high mash pH is not the end of the world; how did the beer turn out?

 

[user 214470]

You need to add acid. Lactic acid, phosphoric acid, or acid malt. One of my next steps dealing with highly-alkaline water is going to be making my own lactic acid.

But a high mash pH is not the end of the world; how did the beer turn out?

Yeah, I'm thinking about trying the acidulated malt, at least out of curiosity to see what it does to my beer/pH, before diving a little deeper into the water chemistry (which I'll probably have to do sooner or later anyway )

How did the beer turned out? I pitched yeast 3-4 hours ago, so I'll have to wait at least 3 weeks to tell

 

[RPh_Guy]

I bought the pH meter in lab equipment store, and I paid extra so they calibrated the meter....

What brand & model meter did you get?

FYI acidulated malt does have flavor contribution. That's why most of us use lactic acid (below flavor threshold).

@z-bob making your own lactic acid? Sounds fun. I do that in a lot of beers

 

[user 214470]

What brand & model meter did you get?

FYI acidulated malt does have flavor contribution. That's why most of us use lactic acid (below flavor threshold).

Well, I'm in a completely different part of the world and the brands are probably also different, but I got this "Adwa" meter:
http://www.adwainstruments.com/pock...nal-waterproof-ph-temp-pocket-testers/83-ad12

I don't expect it to be super accurate though, but I think it's sufficient for a "decent" homebrewer.

Thanks for the tip about lactic acid – I'll see if I can find it somewhere. I mentioned acidulated malt because it's easily obtainable.
EDIT: found Lactic Acid (80%) in wine making supply store, definitely gonna try that in the next batch and see if I end up with lower pH/better beer.
Next step will be bringing my tap water to the lab for the report..

 

[RPh_Guy]

I don't expect it to be super accurate

All right, it's all good then

Happy brewing!

 

[user 214470]

I don't expect it to be super accurate

All right, it's all good then

Happy brewing!

Oh man, sarcasm I get it... How can I put it...
There's Rolls-Royce and there's Audi, there's Rolex and there's Seiko, there's Macallan and there's Glenfiddich. If it's not top of the line, it doesn't have to be automatically unacceptable. I'm not comparing apples to oranges here, just apples from different gardens.
Happy brewing for you too.

 

[GPP33]

As others have said, without knowing your water you can’t predict your Ph. You can get there through trial and error but you’ll waste a lot of beer in the process. If distilled is too expensive can you get RO? Have you looked into getting a full water report or asked your water supplier for more details?

Sorry, but adding “a little of this” and “a little of that” will be a long road to success.

 

[z-bob]

Trial and error is not necessarily that bad. You're not likely to waste a lot of beer, the beer just might not be quite as good as it could've been. I've given up on hitting 5.2 pH with my local water, but when I tried to adjust to 5.4 I actually got 5.65 -- and the beer turned out just fine. If I add more lactic acid the beer will taste weird; I tried it once. I could switch to phosphoric, but mashing at 5.6 works for me.

I would try 1 ounce of acid malt per gallon (add it all to the mash) and see what happens. That's based on experience with my 7.6 pH tapwater which may be totally different than Domaso's, but it's a place to start. Good luck!

 

[hottpeper13]

Lactic acid and acidulated malt give the same flavor contributions. This is what I did when using my water for my first all grain( knew I had extremely hard water). Made a porter with half my and half RO, was the best one I made up to then. Made an IPA half and half, almost undrinkable, very harsh. Bought a pH meter and the LaMotte water test kit. Then boiled my water and tested it ,the alkalinity had dropped to 70 so I brewed an IPA and had to use 8oz acidulated malt to get 5.3 and it was an awesome beer. Get your water tested,because you need to know if you have enough calcium for the mash and fermenting processes.

 

[GPP33]

Trial and error is not necessarily that bad. You're not likely to waste a lot of beer, the beer just might not be quite as good as it could've been. I've given up on hitting 5.2 pH with my local water, but when I tried to adjust to 5.4 I actually got 5.65 -- and the beer turned out just fine. If I add more lactic acid the beer will taste weird; I tried it once. I could switch to phosphoric, but mashing at 5.6 works for me.

I would try 1 ounce of acid malt per gallon (add it all to the mash) and see what happens. That's based on experience with my 7.6 pH tapwater which may be totally different than Domaso's, but it's a place to start. Good luck!

Trail an error certainly isn’t a bad thing, it’s how we gained the knowledge we have now and will gain a lot of the knowledge of the future. Nothing wrong with doing it yourself but in this case it’s a lot easier and cheaper to just take the knowledge that’s out there and move on to trialing the unknown.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Lactic acid and acidulated malt give the same flavor contributions.

I've heard lots of people say that acidulated malt adds a unique tangy flavor. The acidulated malt has bacterial products (flavors) that purified lactic acid does not.

FWIW Brulosophy tested phosphoric vs acidulated with a significant result. Phosphoric vs lactic was non-significant.
http://brulosophy.com/2018/04/23/wa...t-for-mash-ph-adjustment-exbeeriment-results/
http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/09/wa...d-for-mash-ph-adjustment-exbeeriment-results/

you need to know if you have enough calcium for the mash and fermenting processes.

Adding calcium is not necessary because malt contains more than enough calcium for yeast health.

Cheers

 

[Desert_Sky]

An entire thread to taking a pH reading? Its actually quite simple, spend a little and get a good meter, or calibrate with the proper lab solution prior to every brewday with the cheaper ones.

And 5.2 stabilizer most definitely does indeed work.

 

[SEndorf]

OK.. Sure. I love these 5.2 buffer threads.
Even with a most limited, cursory knowledge of water chemistry, you must acknowledge that there is no magic dust that will take ANY level of alkalinity and ANY type of grain composition and (click your heels three times) your mash Ph will be 5.2 as advertised.

 

[Lefou]

I agonized over using 5.2 Stabilizer and after reading the forums here, decided my money was better spent buying soft bottled water off the shelf. The price was comparable and my lighter beers improved markedly with a minimum addition of comparatively inexpensive brewing salts.

DeLange and Brungard FTW.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]And 5.2 stabilizer most definitely does indeed work.

So, you're the one...

 

[kevin58]

5.2 was never intended to GET your PH to 5.2 but rather to hold it there... hence the part of the name "stabilizer". Even then however it's success in doing so is sketchy.

 

[SEndorf]

5.2 was never intended to GET your PH to 5.2 but rather to hold it there...

Well... No... Ph drift during the mash is perfectly normal.

 

[mabrungard]

5.2 was never intended to GET your PH to 5.2 but rather to hold it there... hence the part of the name "stabilizer". Even then however it's success in doing so is sketchy.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first part of your statement? However, you are correct that 5.2 is a buffer and it tends to stabilize pH. The real problem is that it doesn't stabilize the mashing or wort pH anywhere near 5.2. The typical room-temperature pH tends to be around 5.8 and if you apply the temperature-driven depression pH offset of about 0.2 to 0.3 units, there is no hope that wort will ever get to 5.2.

If you forget whatever offset the manufacturer was assuming you'd have and focus on the "room-temperature" standard for measuring and assessing brewing pH, 5.8 is WAY too high for good brewing outcome. Even when brewing a dark style, I recommend keeping the room-temperature mashing pH down around 5.6 or less.

 

[Desert_Sky]

Its a buffer, its not a one thing fix all. It allows you to be a bit off and bring it back in to specs. Not start high and try and drop 2 points

fix your process or water comp if youre not hitting your mash pH, not sure how else to say it.

 

[day_trippr]

Well, you could say 5.2 stabilizer is a complete waste of money and recommend following any decent mash water prep program instead...

Cheers!

 

[Desert_Sky]

Sure dude. Go with that

Its cheap and allows me to be a little off and not worry about it. Its premixed and works as intended

pH meters says so. Data doesnt lie

 

[day_trippr]

So the history of that stuff is Charlie Talley created it for a brewery. It probably worked for them.
Productizing it for general use across a random mix of brewing liquor and grain bills is pretty clearly analogous to marketing snake oil.
But, hey, if you're happy with it, vaya con Dios...

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Sure dude. Go with that

Its cheap and allows me to be a little off and not worry about it. Its premixed and works as intended

pH meters says so. Data doesnt lie

That's awesome that it works for you without a flavor impact. I used one tablespoon in a mash once, and had salty weirdness, so that's my only data point.

Out of curiosity, what was the pH before you added it, and what was the pH after?

I'm just curious if a small buffering would drop the pH if the brewing water was only a little alkaline, and that's why it would work in your case, but not drop the pH at all in my (one) case.

 

[z-bob]

Sure dude. Go with that

Its cheap and allows me to be a little off and not worry about it. Its premixed and works as intended

pH meters says so. Data doesnt lie

I don't want to dissuade you if you're happy. But if your pH is a little off, your beer doesn't care. Try mashing at 5.4 instead of 5.2 and see if it makes a difference. (maybe it does make a tiny difference; I cannot reasonably get to 5.2 with my water, but I can't tell the difference between 5.4 and 5.6)

 

[kevin58]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first part of your statement?

I thought it was pretty clear... the product is not for GETTING your PH to 5.2 which is how many people use it... or think it's supposed to be used for. You are not going to dump in a measured amount of this stuff and magically have your PH reach 5.2.