Looking for extract kit to match an IPA I like.

[Dee74]

I have never been a fan of IPA but have been trying them to see if I like them. I found one I really like and am now looking for an extract kit that may be similar. Name: Big Ditch Hayburner, Buffalo, NY. The beer is described as a luscious and citrusy IPA with primary notes of orange, melon and grapefruit, and a slightly earthy finish. It packs a firm bitterness but remains balanced by abundant late hop additions and a soft and airy malt base. MALT: 2-ROW, CRYSTAL, CARAPILS HOPS: WARRIOR, CTZ, CASCADE, GLACIER, FALCONER’S FLIGHT ABV: 7.2%

Can anyone recommend an extract kit that would be similar to this brew?

 

[day_trippr]

Any reason not to provide the name of said brew? It's a lot easier to find clone recipes by name than inference...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

3 kudo points for the right guess!

 

[Dee74]

Any reason not to provide the name of said brew? It's a lot easier to find clone recipes by name than inference...

Cheers!

I thought I put that in there. It is Big Ditch Hayburner from Buffalo, NY. I will add that to the OP.

 

[day_trippr]

3 kudo points for the right guess!

lol!

From the BA reviews it seems Hayburner leans towards the NEIPA style, find a basic NEIPA extract recipe and adjust the hop bill to line up.
Sounds easy - but tbh given there's an association with oats and/or white wheat with that style I'm not sure how one would do that with a straight-out extract design. Hopefully someone's been there/done that...

Cheers!

 

[Dee74]

lol!

From the BA reviews it seems Hayburner leans towards the NEIPA style, find a basic NEIPA extract recipe and adjust the hop bill to line up.
Sounds easy - but tbh given there's an association with oats and/or white wheat with that style I'm not sure how one would do that with a straight-out extract design. Hopefully someone's been there/done that...

Cheers!

I realize I may be limited with an extract kit but I am still a beginner and my only experience is with extract kits.

 

[IslandLizard]

lol!

From the BA reviews it seems Hayburner leans towards the NEIPA style, find a basic NEIPA extract recipe and adjust the hop bill to line up.
Sounds easy - but tbh given there's an association with oats and/or white wheat with that style I'm not sure how one would do that with a straight-out extract design. Hopefully someone's been there/done that...

Cheers!

I saw you at the same place.
The BA reviews were the only ones I found that were somewhat useful and pointing to a (cloudy) NEIPA-ish style.

The ingredient list on the brewery's site does not include oats or wheat. I guess you could brew a cloudy NEIPA-like beer without them. The persistent cloudiness that characterizes these type of beers also comes from dry hopping during fermentation.

Listen to what @day_trippr says.^
These type of beers are not the easiest to brew, they take some dexterity and close attention.

Maybe you can contact the brewery or better yet, the head brewer for some more inside information?
They claim they've changed the recipe 89 times, so it's a work in progress.

From their site:

HAYBURNER
INDIA PALE ALE

Hayburner is a luscious and citrusy IPA with primary notes of
orange, melon and grapefruit, and a slightly earthy finish. It
packs a firm bitterness but remains balanced by abundant late
hop additions and a soft and airy malt base.

MALT: 2-ROW, CRYSTAL, CARAPILS

HOPS: WARRIOR, CTZ, CASCADE, GLACIER, FALCONER’S FLIGHT

ABV: 7.2%

 

[day_trippr]

I kinda read right past that listed grain bill - my bad.
So I reckon using light or even extra light LME to hit around 1.065 OG and following the CW wrt hop schedule would get in the ballpark.
That would mean a light early boil addition, large flame-out and sub-170°F whirlpool additions, the "bio-hops" at high krausen or even a bit earlier, and a dry hop round a handful of days later.

Also, even though this is an extract design, I wouldn't ignore chloride and sulfate in the brew liquor, given the massive hop presence. Somewhere around 150:75 is a good place to start...

Cheers!

 

[IslandLizard]

I realize I may be limited with an extract kit but I am still a beginner and my only experience is with extract kits.

I doubt anyone would issue a brew-ready "kit" for this particular beer, unless it's the brewery itself.* Without more detailed information it's gonna be a crap shoot to formulate a close enough recipe, and the resulting beer maybe just as good, but will be quite different.

A beer is not just a recipe, a list of ingredients, the whole process is just as important. Brewing a small batch on your stove fermented in your spare fridge yields a very different beer from a 20 or 50 barrel batch at a brewery, using the exact same ingredients.

A recipe can be formulated, brewed, tested and compared. Then revised, rebrewed, etc. Some dedicated homebrewers (and some pros) do just that.
An extract recipe also has some limitations, you can only get so close with them.

*A semi local brewery, Flying Dog, sells kits (including a vial with their house yeast) of one of their flagship beers, Raging *****, a wonderful Belgian IPA. I've tasted the results from those kits brewed by various homebrewers and although very good and tasty, none were close enough to the ballpark. They even had a "brewed with our kit" competition for it. I've tried to clone it myself several times, with similar results. Good beer, but no clone. I'm gonna try again.

Have you tried brewing from a (proven) recipe posted here on HBT, compounded from your own loose bought ingredients? It's not anymore difficult than buying a complete kit, but it gives you more flexibility and control, and you can personalize it to your own taste easier. Make it more bitter, less malty, hoppier, different hops, lighter, darker, change some steeping grains, etc.

 

[IslandLizard]

Not having tasted or seen it, I'm giving some wild guess directions to put into your recipe formulator:

5.5 Gallons in fermentor, Original Gravity around 1.060-1070, 6.8% ABV, 6-10 SRM, 40-50 IBU

• 8 lbs Pilsen Light DME or Golden Light DME
• 4 oz Crystal Malt C20
• 4 oz Crystal Malt C60

(Use 8-12 oz, or less, in total of: C10, C20, C40, C60, or a combination of any of those to get the right color and flavor)

• 0.5 of Warrior for bittering at 60' to get around 20-30 IBU

After the boil, chill down a little to 180F
Then add the last 4 hops together in 2 separate whirlpool additions. Use 1/2 oz of each hop (CTZ/Cascade/Glacier/Falconers):

• First whirlpool addition (total 2 oz) at 180F for 15'
• Chill down more, to 160F
• Second whirlpool addition (total 2 oz) at 160F for 30'
• Chill down to pitching temps

Transfer to fermentor, aerate/oxygenate wort and pitch 250 billion cells of WY1318 (make a 2 liter starter)
Ferment at 66-68°F until 2nd dry hop, then let rise to 70-72F naturally.

One day after pitching take a gravity sample.
If the gravity is down by around 30%, so it's at 70% from OG, dry hop. Otherwise wait until it gets around there, take an educated guess. Could be another 12 hours, next day, or 36 hours. You don't want to miss it by too much.

• At around 70% of OG dry hop with 1/2 oz each (total 2 oz) of those same last 4 hops
• At around 30% of OG dry hop again, same amounts (total 2 oz)

Let ferment out (~5 more days)
Cold crash for 2 days at 30-32F
Package

*** Beware of introducing oxygen (air) at any point in the process, especially during packaging. Kegging is preferred. ***

 

[Bubbles2]

I pulled off a tasty IPA, Ranger like, with a slight citrus grapefruit finish. 5.25% abv and a bit more body then many of the IPA's out there, perhaps the oats I use?
Partial Grain using DME.

Recipe:
.75lb of Quick oats (oatmeal you buy at the market)
.75lb EDIT Wheat malted or Use a base malt, two row, pilsner, etc.
Those go in your steep bag (Muslum bag)
Start kettle with 3 gal h20
You can even start with 2.5 gal and use .5 gal when you get to temp to rinse those grains after pulling them out. Just make sure you agitate (up and down)your steep bag while waiting to reach temp.
Begin heat and leave in steep till 170º ƒ Mine takes up to 45min to get to temp, sometimes 30 pending if I have it on High heat or almost high.

EDIT (Remove steep bag Durka durka)

Now add 5 lbs of DME. I have Medium DME only difference is color of finished beer. If using LME here is a conversion link https://www.brewersfriend.com/lme-dme-conversion-calculator/

Add Hops:
1oz Chinook right after you dissolve your DME or added your LME
As your wort starts boil set a timer for 60min
@30 add 1/2oz N Brewer 9.3% if you got it I've used 5% too
@20 add 1 oz Cascade

Late add DME to boost sugar.
Add 2.5lb of DME -Bring back to boil

Set timer @15min
Add 1oz N.Brewer Hop or Cascade (whatever you have)
Add 1 tsp Irish Moss or Whirfloc (whatever you have)
@10min add 1oz Chinook Hops
@3min add 1/2oz N.Brewer Hops

When time up, rapid cool. (Many ways)
I use my bathtub takes 45 min to bring down to room temp this way 75-78º
I do wet a towel with Star San to cover lid of kettle as it cools

I siphon off the Wort to Primary, while waiting to settle I hydrate my SAF 05 yeast. I use this yeast because it is reasonable $ and I want to have the same yeast when I play with a recipe and am adjusting my Hops varieties.
Hydrate my yeast in like temp within MAX 10º difference between wort and hydration cup. 20 min max without food for the yeast.
So waiting is OK to create this. I do not start my yeast hydration until I have siphoned off my wort into primary topped off with h20 to 5.5 gallon mark. OK if your's is smaller just be a higher volume without that .5 gallon of h20.

After Wort has settled in Fermentor I now measure O.G to know ABV I am going to have at F.G

After about 8-10 days of fermentation (pends on ambient temps you will see no to little activity)
Pitch
1oz of Perle German Hops into your fermentor. When those hops finally settle, prob 4-5 days you can measure F.G and rack. These Perle Hops when you smell them you will smell the peach, citrus scents. Earthy is from hops like Cascade. Your Chinook is where your grapefruit comes from.

Outstanding IPA Beer!

Your flavor comes from the Hops and when you introduce them. Bitter like IPA's add Hops at the beginning of a boil, I have even put it in way before the boil when starting my steep, and again at first boil and through out the boil with a dry hop finish. The dry hop finished flavor is predicated on the Hop strain and without cooking it too long or at all.
Here is a link that you can spend hours checking out as I do when I create my own recipes. https://ychhops.com/varieties
​

 

[IslandLizard]

Recipe looks good, but you could do a bit better.

.75lb of Quick oats (oatmeal you buy at the market)
.75lb Red wheat berries (wheat crushed medium)
Those go in your steep bag (Musl[in] bag)

Those should be mashed, not steeped, which means a pound of diastatic malt (base malt) should be added to convert all those starches to sugars.

 

[Bubbles2]

Recipe looks good, but you could do a bit better.


Those should be mashed, not steeped, which means a pound of diastatic malt (base malt) should be added to convert all those starches to sugars.

I'm gonna have to look that up. Recipe is great as it is now. Does not the Wheat do that?

 

[Bubbles2]

OK so I read about it... Looks like it is a sprouted, dried and then ground grain, such as wheat. I bet adding that diastatic malt would really push that gravity up to 9ish maybe more. Might need to use a yeast starter for that one... Not to hijack the thread

 

[ancientmariner52]

OK so I read about it... Looks like it is a sprouted, dried and then ground grain, such as wheat. I bet adding that diastatic malt would really push that gravity up to 9ish maybe more. Might need to use a yeast starter for that one... Not to hijack the thread

Just to clarify: the sprouting and drying is the process that turns grain into malt. The enzymes that convert starch to sugar are produced during sprouting, then the process is halted by drying. This is base malt, with highest diastatic power. It can be most any grain, but of course barley is the most common.

In another thread I noticed a reference to 'un-malted wheat malt'. The proper term for this is, um, 'wheat'.

 

[Bubbles2]

Thanks ancientmariner appreciate that. I am using reg wheat (Red wheat berries I grind) in my recipe, (so hard to find wheat that has been malted without pesticide use, or no more then 30% called Organic) I will have to pick up some diastatic malt additive, hopefully made organic for my preference. I talked to a rep at Briess and some of the stuff is organic with them and some is not due to batch size and the plant that handles non pesticide stuff.

 

[Bubbles2]

So after further thought and reading about base malt(s) would not the DME I use convert that starch to sugar? Right?

 

[ancientmariner52]

So after further thought and reading about base malt(s) would not the DME I use convert that starch to sugar? Right?

I don't think it would. DME is simply dehydrated wort. It was made from malted grain, and that malt's enzymes were mostly consumed in the mashing process. Any remaining enzymes were almost certainly denatured during the dehydration process.

A base malt has excess diastatic capacity, that is, excess enzymes, so that it can convert itself, plus convert a quantity of additional starch from unmalted sources. I don't believe that carries over into DME or LME. I'm no malt expert, but that is my understanding.

 

[Bubbles2]

I think you are 'spot on' ancientmariner. After further thought, I was thinking how the grist is done and how conversion is in the mash time and temp. Using DME (if indeed it had any enzymes left after processing) One would then need to hold a temp and time (mashing) to get a conversion. Good chat, thanks brew on. I will now substitute the wheat I grind for some base malt as was suggested by Islandlizard. I will edit that recipe in my book and here.

 

[ancientmariner52]

I think you are 'spot on' ancientmariner. After further thought, I was thinking how the grist is done and how conversion is in the mash time and temp. Using DME (if indeed it had any enzymes left after processing) One would then need to hold a temp and time (mashing) to get a conversion. Good chat, thanks brew on. I will now substitute the wheat I grind for some base malt as was suggested by Islandlizard. I will edit that recipe in my book and here.

Glad we could help. I'm a Sailor and machinist, not a scientist. After all these thousands of years, the real experts are still learning a lot about malting and mashing. The basic homebrewing books give plenty of info to be going on with, but if you want details, pick up a copy of 'Malt' by John Mallett. Goes waaay down the rabbit hole, but easy to read for folks like me.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks ancientmariner appreciate that. I am using reg wheat (Red wheat berries I grind) in my recipe, (so hard to find wheat that has been malted without pesticide use, or no more then 30% called Organic) I will have to pick up some diastatic malt additive, hopefully made organic for my preference. I talked to a rep at Briess and some of the stuff is organic with them and some is not due to batch size and the plant that handles non pesticide stuff.

You need to know whether your wheat is (actual) malt or simply raw wheat. When someone refers to "wheat berries" we usually think of raw wheat (berries) not malted wheat.
Check with your source! If it is indeed malted wheat (wheat malt), it will work excellent in your mini mash no need to replace or add anything extra.

"Diastatic" means the malt contains viable enzymes which are needed to convert the starches in the (milled) grain to sugars during the mash.
Diastatic malt is not an additive, it's a base malt. Do not buy or use amylase enzyme for mashing beer grain.

Wheat has special attributes barley doesn't, so keep the wheat malt in the recipe, as it was.

If you're serious about brewing, I can only recommend one book to start with: How to Brew by John Palmer. Get the latest, 4th edition.
The 1st edition can be found online. Although that one looks a bit dated, it is a good basic reference if you need it in a pinch. It tells you all about grain, mashing, etc.

 

[Bubbles2]

Islandlizard-Organic Wheat aka barley or malt is very hard to find, at least reasonable shipped. My local does not carry organic anything. (thinks it's nonsense) I on the other hand think pesticides are not good to consume..anyhow, thanks for the book referral, I will have to get it.
I am sure there are subtle taste difference between a 2row and say a base malt american, or pale ale for that matter. However as you originally pointed out in regards to diastatic/sprouted grain malt it would be a fine substitution in lieu of regular wheat berries ground.
On another note it is a bit of time to write out a recipe and directions for the O.P however it turned out quite rewarding on my part sharing as ancient and you enlightened me.
Thanks Gents.

 

[IslandLizard]

If 80-90% of your ingredients are Organic, I'd say you still did very well. If you can live with the leftover 10-20% made up from small amounts of non-certified organic sourced ingredients, you'll have a much easier time to build a complete recipe.

Organic Wheat aka barley or malt

Uhm, wheat and barley are 2 entirely different "grains."

Either can be (certified) organic or not.

Either can be raw, cut, flaked, milled (cracked, ground) etc.

Either can also have gone through a malting (sprouting) process, followed by controlled drying, making it "malt." To use that malt, it needs to be milled (cracked, ground) to expose the inside to water for mashing, in which the enzymes convert the starches to sugars.

When malt gets exposed to high heat (higher temperature kilning, toasting or roasting) it tends to get much darker while all enzymes are denatured. That malt has great flavor and color, but doesn't have enzymes left to convert itself to sugar. That's where we add a (high diastatic) base malt to help convert the darker (and raw) ones.

If you're sensitive or allergic to wheat avoid any of it, replace with barley products. If gluten is your nemesis, only source gluten free products.

YVW!

 

[Bubbles2]

If 80-90% of your ingredients are Organic, I'd say you still did very well. If you can live with the leftover 10-20% made up from small amounts of non-certified organic sourced ingredients, you'll have a much easier time to build a complete recipe.

Uhm, wheat and barley are 2 entirely different "grains."

Either can be (certified) organic or not.

Either can be raw, cut, flaked, milled (cracked, ground) etc.

Either can also have gone through a malting (sprouting) process, followed by controlled drying, making it "malt." To use that malt, it needs to be milled (cracked, ground) to expose the inside to water for mashing, in which the enzymes convert the starches to sugars.

When malt gets exposed to high heat (higher temperature kilning, toasting or roasting) it tends to get much darker while all enzymes are denatured. That malt has great flavor and color, but doesn't have enzymes left to convert itself to sugar. That's where we add a (high diastatic) base malt to help convert the darker (and raw) ones.

If you're sensitive or allergic to wheat avoid any of it, replace with barley products. If gluten is your nemesis, only source gluten free products.

YVW!

Well while shopping on the Net, and looking for Organic Wheat malt(s) and or Rye, I am constantly redirected to Barley's and so forth. When speaking with Briess' rep he too interchanged those two. It is very confusing and irritating. I too believe that the two are different however it seems that substitution is 'key' in this brewing game... So like this link
https://www.homebrewing.org/Organic-Wheat-Malt-55-lb-Bag_p_4092.html?
utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwur7YBRA_EiwASXqIHMvUU1Qle-NvrVu7YV6oRjuSyuCm1zJt4_iQ0MnT2pCgHiHq2km7zhoCie4QAvD_BwE

The description uses 2 row for a comparison...Yes we agree, however sometimes substitutions and subtle flavors happen in the kitchen is all I am stating. In a perfect world food tainted with poison should be the disclosed and the natural one should be labeled for what it is. Not organic tomato but GMO tomato and tomato sprayed with poison and finally tomato, for anything added and or modified should come with disclosure. What's next Organic diamonds or Modified Diamonds aka cubic zerk? LOL
Anyhow I appreciate the time and insight you shared. And yes I will edit that ingredient to reflect brewers wheat, malted wheat. Brew on!

 

[ancientmariner52]

Well while shopping on the Net, and looking for Organic Wheat malt(s) and or Rye, I am constantly redirected to Barley's and so forth. When speaking with Briess' rep he too interchanged those two. It is very confusing and irritating. I too believe that the two are different however it seems that substitution is 'key' in this brewing game... So like this link
https://www.homebrewing.org/Organic-Wheat-Malt-55-lb-Bag_p_4092.html?
utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&gclid=CjwKCAjwur7YBRA_EiwASXqIHMvUU1Qle-NvrVu7YV6oRjuSyuCm1zJt4_iQ0MnT2pCgHiHq2km7zhoCie4QAvD_BwE

The description uses 2 row for a comparison...Yes we agree, however sometimes substitutions and subtle flavors happen in the kitchen is all I am stating. In a perfect world food tainted with poison should be the disclosed and the natural one should be labeled for what it is. Not organic tomato but GMO tomato and tomato sprayed with poison and finally tomato, for anything added and or modified should come with disclosure. What's next Organic diamonds or Modified Diamonds aka cubic zerk? LOL
Anyhow I appreciate the time and insight you shared. And yes I will edit that ingredient to reflect brewers wheat, malted wheat. Brew on!

I don't know if it helps, but you can buy wheat DME. I don't make NEIPAs so I dunno. Amazon has Breiss Wheat DME if you can't get it from your local guy.

 

[IslandLizard]

It's OK, as long as you know they're different grains with different qualities. The differences among barley, wheat and rye are NOT subtle unless one uses very small quantities within a larger bulk. 8 oz of wheat malt (5%) may be imperceptible in a 5 gallon batch of beer containing 9.5 lbs of barley malt (95%). But at 10% one should definitely be able to taste it.

 

[Bubbles2]

Good idea, I had not thought of that route....another substitute avenue...lol

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't know if it helps, but you can buy wheat DME. I don't make NEIPAs so I dunno. Amazon has Breiss Wheat DME if you can't get it from your local guy.

That still leaves the flaked oats that won't be converted.
I've seen commercial kits being sold where flaked goods (oats, wheat) are being steeped along with the crystal malts (NB).

I've never tried it, but won't that just leave a bunch of starch in the wort, precipitating out in the trub sooner or later, and whatever remains in suspension leaves a semi-permanent haze?
Do flaked oats contribute anything when just steeped? Perhaps some oils, if they're not bound too tightly.

 

[ancientmariner52]

That still leaves the flaked oats that won't be converted.
I've seen commercial kits being sold where flaked goods (oats, wheat) are being steeped along with the crystal malts (NB).

I've never tried it, but won't that just leave a bunch of starch in the wort, precipitating out in the trub sooner or later, and whatever remains in suspension leaves a semi-permanent haze?
Do flaked oats contribute anything when just steeped? Perhaps some oils, if they're not bound too tightly.

Yeah, I didn't look at the whole recipe. Just can't be bothered with the whole NEIPA thing, tbh. So still need base malt to mash the oats.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah, I didn't look at the whole recipe. Just can't be bothered with the whole NEIPA thing, tbh. So still need base malt to mash the oats.

In NEIPAs the flaked stuff gets mashed too.
Just found this interesting article by Scott Janish on NEIPAs and their haze.

Yup, if @Bubbles2 was certain the milled wheat he got is actually wheat malt, he'd be all set using that in his mini mash.

This is such a classic example of a hijacked thread! Hmm...
Everything from post #11 on down is except where we touch upon mini-mashing those adjuncts.

 

[ancientmariner52]

In NEIPAs the flaked stuff gets mashed too.
Just found this interesting article by Scott Janish on NEIPAs and their haze.

Yup, if @Bubbles2 was certain the milled wheat he got is actually wheat malt, he'd be all set using that in his mini mash.

This is such a classic example of a hijacked thread! Hmm...
Everything from post #11 on down is except where we touch upon mini-mashing those adjuncts.

Yep. I don't even know what the original topic was at this point.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yep. I don't even know what the original topic was at this point.

Hayburner
IPA extract clone, Big Ditch Brewery, Buffalo, NY

Let's hope the OP @Dee74 can get something useful out of the discussion from post #11 on.

 

[ancientmariner52]

Hayburner
IPA extract clone, Big Ditch Brewery, Buffalo, NY

Let's hope the OP @Dee74 can get something useful out of the discussion from post #11 on.

Woops, I thought Bubbles was the OP. Saw what I believed to be confused terminology and tried to clear it up. Sorry, Dee74, I 'll be quiet now.

 

[Bubbles2]

So quick oats not steel cut have already been "opened" for enzyme. If the OP takes the time to read this thread he certainly has a handful of information in regards to two IPA recipes, substitutions and why we boil / steep. I mentioned the Hijacking #14 earlier but have not heard from the OP with any questions. Maybe he is watching...?