Look what grew over Labor Day weekend...

[IslandLizard]

Kegged and bottled 2 batches of beer, a Belgian Saison and a Caramel Amber Ale, to take with us over the Labor Day weekend. They both taste great!

In an effort to save the yeast for the next brews, I followed instructions on yeast washing and poured the watered down yeast slurries into a few jars. The 1/2 gallon jar to hold the S-05 yeast from the Caramel Amber turned out too small, so I poured the remaining slurry into a 2 liter Erlenmeyer.

When we returned from our trip Monday evening, a few white specks had formed on the surface's edges in the Erlenmeyer. Ah, we got the start of an infection here!

The next morning the surface had hazed over and by 4 pm a beautiful landscape was being created (9/3/13):

2 Days later (9/5/13):

The first portion of the yeast slurry in the 1/2 gallon jar is fine, as is the slurry of the Saison yeast. Neither have signs of infection. My best guess is I didn't clean the Erlenmeyer well enough, or some bacteria (probably lacto) got in while pouring the 2nd part.

Not sure what I'm going to do with it, just let it grow for a while longer.

 

[reed1911]

Not lacto, that is from brett.

 

[IslandLizard]

Not lacto, that is from brett.

Ah, thanks for knowing your bugs. I wonder where it came from. A wild house Brett perhaps? The Erlenmeyer was scrubbed with a brush and washing soda, then sanitized in Starsan, just like the 2 other vessels I harvested the yeast in. Those 2 did not grow a pellicle and seem to be uninfected.

The pellicle has been growing fast. Isn't Brett to be known a slow grower?

I've done a couple other wild fermenting experiments by putting a few grains of raw malts in a glass of wort and was surprised at how easy it created a good yeast layer on the bottom.

Say I want to save the Brett for a next brew, do I just siphon off the thinned beer underneath the pellicle and store that in the fridge? Then make starters from that? Or should I just let this grow as is, and then siphon off or decant it to make a starter, before I pitch it?

The bottom 1/2 inch is a cake of S-05 and trub, inseparably mixed.

These experiments are quite exciting.

 

[RedBeardedBrewer]

I don't know about harvesting but I will say that it is a good idea to have separate fermenters and equipment for your wild yeast experiments and sours. Then your regular beer won't get infected as often.

 

[IslandLizard]

I don't know about harvesting but I will say that it is a good idea to have separate fermenters and equipment for your wild yeast experiments and sours. Then your regular beer won't get infected as often.

Oh yeah, I intend to have a dedicated sour line. Some brewers successfully clean sour vessels and equipment and switch back and forth without problems. I guess it all depends on the equipment involved and rigorous cleaning routines.

 

[prrriiide]

I have the same problem.

I'm thinking it might be coming from my plate chiller. I have a Duda 30 12". I haven't run PBW through it, just back-flush with hot water and then StarSan. Is that enough, or do I need to be hitting it with PBW/StarSan during the boil, too?

I plan on getting some quat and sanitizing everything that I possibly can, including my kegs, lines, and taps. Any other suggestions?

I'm not a big fan of the sours, especially when it was supposed to be a beer that I have repeated on many occasions...

 

[idigg]

For plate chiller, just recirculate boiling wort through it the last 5 minutes of the boil. After chilling a batch, I just run hot water through (I save the water from chilling) the chiller, maybe 2-3 gallons. Then I will manually fill the wort side of the chiller with star san and let it sit for 2-3 minutes then flush with water and try to remove all fluid from chiller for storage. The trick with plate chillers is to not allow wort to dry in the plates, flush the chiller almost immediately after cooling.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have the same problem.

I'm thinking it might be coming from my plate chiller. I have a Duda 30 12". I haven't run PBW through it, just back-flush with hot water and then StarSan. Is that enough, or do I need to be hitting it with PBW/StarSan during the boil, too?

I plan on getting some quat and sanitizing everything that I possibly can, including my kegs, lines, and taps. Any other suggestions?

I'm not a big fan of the sours, especially when it was supposed to be a beer that I have repeated on many occasions...

I was just harvesting yeast, so for me it's not a problem. But I understand it is for you.

It could be from a dirty plate chiller, or something else, like a scratch in a fermentor or an unsanitary hose. I too use a plate chiller, and keeping those clean can be a job by itself. If you suspect the plate chiller, you can shake or blow all the water out and stick it in a 425°F oven and bake for an hour or so and leave it in there until cool. Then pump (circulate) hot PBW or your homemade version of it (Oxyclean works fine too) through for 20-40 minutes both ways, keep switching the direction of flow, until clean and no more crud comes out. Then pump Starsan through it.

When brewing, flush the Starsan out. Then circulate you boiling wort through the pump, chiller (water side empty and water turned off), and hoses for 10-15 minutes. That will pasteurize or sanitize your chilling system. When ready to chill, open the cold water faucet.

After brewing clean the same way, except you can skip the oven part.

I store mine filled with Starsan. Not much that can grow in there. And I bake every few brews or after a long time of no use. Goes in with the bread

 

[TNGabe]

Not lacto, that is from brett.

Enlighten me as to how you made that determination swami.

 

[disney7]

Hey Lizard, I'm curious about the infection vector.

Did you sanitize the outside of both the flask and the 1/2 gallon container you were pouring from? If not, any chance some bber ran around the lip before going into the flask?

I've always thought that it took a noticeable chunk of crud to survive Star San. It worries me that an invisible spec of something could do that to your flask.

Was the Star San mixed in the proper proportions? Was it fresh or had it been sitting around (mixed) for a while?

 

[reed1911]

Enlighten me as to how you made that determination swami.

Lacto, Pedio, and Sacc. do not form pelicles only Brett. does. Could it be a multiple orginism infection? certainly. However, it has to be infected with brett to form the pelicle and most likely his IBU's are too high from the previous batch to allow any lacto to form. Pedio does not exist in most places on its own, and does not readily infect unless it is in the environment. Most often the only reason it is in the environment is due to purposefully brewing with it.

 

[TNGabe]

Lacto, Pedio, and Sacc. do not form pelicles only Brett. does. Could it be a multiple orginism infection? certainly. However, it has to be infected with brett to form the pelicle and most likely his IBU's are too high from the previous batch to allow any lacto to form. Pedio does not exist in most places on its own, and does not readily infect unless it is in the environment. Most often the only reason it is in the environment is due to purposefully brewing with it.

Fail. Brett is definitely not the only pellicle forming microbe.

 

[IslandLizard]

Hey Lizard, I'm curious about the infection vector.

Did you sanitize the outside of both the flask and the 1/2 gallon container you were pouring from? If not, any chance some bber ran around the lip before going into the flask?

I've always thought that it took a noticeable chunk of crud to survive Star San. It worries me that an invisible spec of something could do that to your flask.

Was the Star San mixed in the proper proportions? Was it fresh or had it been sitting around (mixed) for a while?

Good question we all hope to learn from.
Pouring into, not from.

I'm pretty good and thorough with sanitation. Strong background in chemistry.
I always spray Starsan around the carboy's neck, the stopper, and along the shoulders before opening them.

After I remove the bung, I give the neck another spray from above. This causes some Starsan to leak inside the neck, in hope to sanitize that inside opening some more. I doubt many brewers do this, and wonder if that could be counteractive.

After racking the beer out of the primary, I added 4 pints of boiled and chilled water to the yeast cake, swirled and poured the slurry into the 1/2 gallon jar (sanitized with Starsan) and, because it was too small, the remainder into a scrubbed and Starsan-ed erlenmeyer. Covered the ermenmeyer's mouth with starsan-ed aluminum foil, tightly.

I let both vessels rest, but even after 2 hours the yeast or trub had not dropped, everything was still suspended. So I left them over the long weekend on the counter top.

3 places I can think of that could have introduced infection:
1. The erlenmeyer was new and may not have been clean enough. The bottom of those things are hard to clean actually, and maybe something remained stuck to it, and survived the hot washing soda scrub and Starsan treatment afterwards. I'll stick a scrubbing pad in it next time.
2. Something dripped or fell from the outside of the carboy when pouring the 2nd slurry part.
3. The krausen ring always remains a mystery as what it contains. Possibly a bug got dislodged during the 2nd pour. The slurry passes over the krausen ring to pour out the neck.

Maybe racking the slurry, without the plastic trub tip, would be a better technique than pouring from a carboy.

Starsan was not fresh, but acidity was checked and corrected. I usually dump the batch when a slight scum appears on top, or when the solution darkens. 1oz/5gal as usual. I keep 2 Starsan containers, One long shallow tote for long things and misc stuff, such as fittings. The other a 6.5 gallon brew bucket. Both have lids. I used the bucket for sanitizing the yeast vessels.

Another observation. The diluted "washing beer" is not strong in alcohol to help fight off bugs. 2% perhaps.

Appreciate any and all feedback, of course.

 

[reed1911]

Fail. Brett is definitely not the only pellicle forming microbe.

Cite your source.

 

[TNGabe]

Cite your source.

Brewing Science and Practice by Dennis E. Briggs, Chris A. Boulton, Peter A. Brookes and Roger Stevens

pg 623

"Several bacterial and some yeast species are capable of growth in beer. This can cause the formation of hazes, surface pellicles and many undesirable changes in beer flavour and aroma. The outward symptoms of these infections have been long recognized and many are characterized as 'diseases' of beers. These are usually descriptive of the changes in flavour and appearance."

And pgs 630 & 634 on bacterial pellicles.

"A brief description of the Gram negative bacteria associated with beer spoilage and the defects produced by their growth is given in Table 17.3 (review, Fleet, 1992). The stages in the brewing process at which these bacteria exert their effects and the defects that are produced are dependent upon the physiological capabilities of the organisms. The descriptions of the bacterial species in Table 17.3 provide an immediate indication of the stages in brewing where the results of their spoilage may become evident. Thus, acetic acid bacteria are obligate aerobes and produce acetic acid from ethanol. The concentration of ethanol that may be tolerated varies between strains. In early work, Shimwell (1936) reported that none could grow at ethanol concentrations greater than 6% v/v. Subsequently, other workers have reported that some strains can grow in ethanol concentrations up to 10% v/v (De Ley et al., 1984) and Gluconobacter oxydans can survive 13% v/v (Magnus et al., 1986). Some strains can grow under micro-aerophilic conditions. They are tolerant of ethanol, hop resins and low pH. Typically, they spoil beer where some oxygen is present, as might be the case in licensed premises where air is allowed to enter casks. Beer lines and dispense equipment are frequently contaminated by acetic acid bacteria. Spoilage becomes evident in the form of surface pellicles, turbidity and ropiness. The latter refers to the formation of extracellular polysaccharide material, which can be seen suspended as slime in the infected beer. Infected beer becomes acid and off-flavours develop. Acetic acid bacteria are ubiquitous in brewery and licensed premises. However, they should be easily controlled by the use of appropriate hygiene regimes. In particular, dispense systems must be kept scrupulously clean. The best safeguard against acetic acid bacterial infection of beers is to eliminate oxygen."

 

[Biobrewer]

Lacto, Pedio, and Sacc. do not form pelicles only Brett. does. Could it be a multiple orginism infection? certainly. However, it has to be infected with brett to form the pelicle and most likely his IBU's are too high from the previous batch to allow any lacto to form. Pedio does not exist in most places on its own, and does not readily infect unless it is in the environment. Most often the only reason it is in the environment is due to purposefully brewing with it.

I'm sorry to say, but this statement is a bit inaccurate.

First off, Brettanomyces is definitely not the only pellicle forming organism in beer. Pediococcus can form biofilms on the surface of beer that are a type of pellicle made up of polysaccharides and cells. I have a pale ale fermented solely with American Ale (Wyeast 1056) that I soured only with Pediococcus finishing up right now, and it has a wicked biofilm/pellicle on the surface.

With respect to Lactobacillus and IBU, there are strains that are more hop resistant than others, so yes, Lactobacillus can absolutely spoil beer with a decent amount of IBU.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1610305/

With respect to your statement about Pediococcus not existing on it's own in most places and that most contamination in a brewery is due to the brewery purposefully using it is incorrect. Pediococcus has been a potent and ubiquitous spoilage organism in beer since beer was made, and definitely exists in every brewery, even those that do not use it purposefully. In fact, according to Brewing, by Michael Lewis and Tom Young (2nd edition):

"P. damnosus is especially common in breweries and well suited for growth in beer...Pediococcus is a more common contaminant than Lactobacillus, world-wide, in beer at the end of fermentation and during storage" - pg. 89

 

[RedBeardedBrewer]

Brewing Science and Practice by Dennis E. Briggs, Chris A. Boulton, Peter A. Brookes and Roger Stevens

pg 623

"Several bacterial and some yeast species are capable of growth in beer. This can cause the formation of hazes, surface pellicles and many undesirable changes in beer flavour and aroma. The outward symptoms of these infections have been long recognized and many are characterized as 'diseases' of beers. These are usually descriptive of the changes in flavour and appearance."

And pgs 630 & 634 on bacterial pellicles.

"A brief description of the Gram negative bacteria associated with beer spoilage and the defects produced by their growth is given in Table 17.3 (review, Fleet, 1992). The stages in the brewing process at which these bacteria exert their effects and the defects that are produced are dependent upon the physiological capabilities of the organisms. The descriptions of the bacterial species in Table 17.3 provide an immediate indication of the stages in brewing where the results of their spoilage may become evident. Thus, acetic acid bacteria are obligate aerobes and produce acetic acid from ethanol. The concentration of ethanol that may be tolerated varies between strains. In early work, Shimwell (1936) reported that none could grow at ethanol concentrations greater than 6% v/v. Subsequently, other workers have reported that some strains can grow in ethanol concentrations up to 10% v/v (De Ley et al., 1984) and Gluconobacter oxydans can survive 13% v/v (Magnus et al., 1986). Some strains can grow under micro-aerophilic conditions. They are tolerant of ethanol, hop resins and low pH. Typically, they spoil beer where some oxygen is present, as might be the case in licensed premises where air is allowed to enter casks. Beer lines and dispense equipment are frequently contaminated by acetic acid bacteria. Spoilage becomes evident in the form of surface pellicles, turbidity and ropiness. The latter refers to the formation of extracellular polysaccharide material, which can be seen suspended as slime in the infected beer. Infected beer becomes acid and off-flavours develop. Acetic acid bacteria are ubiquitous in brewery and licensed premises. However, they should be easily controlled by the use of appropriate hygiene regimes. In particular, dispense systems must be kept scrupulously clean. The best safeguard against acetic acid bacterial infection of beers is to eliminate oxygen."

I can't see the table that was referenced, but that passage does not say that they are multiple species that can produce pellicles... Not only that but there is no reason to be such a nerd-jerk on the forums.

 

[Biobrewer]

I can't see the table that was referenced, but that passage does not say that they are multiple species that can produce pellicles... Not only that but there is no reason to be such a nerd-jerk on the forums.

I think he was just trying to provide some information. No need to bash.

Also, see my response. I would certainly consider a bacterial biofilm a type of pellicle.

 

[TNGabe]

I can't see the table that was referenced, but that passage does not say that they are multiple species that can produce pellicles... Not only that but there is no reason to be such a nerd-jerk on the forums.

There is a handy block function if you don't want to see my posts.