Long mash

[chaps]

Would there be any downside to a long mash 3-5 hours? I’m trying to figure out a way to split up my brew day as it takes me about 8-9 hours from beginning to end. I am considering getting the mash going then leaving it, taking care of life, then coming back later to boil, transfer, and clean up.

I do not have a pump for recirculating but I do have an electric biab so I can set and forget the temp.

Thoughts?

 

[jtratcliff]

if your mash temps drop too low. you can end up w/ a dry beer...

Mashing depends on enzymes converting starches to sugars.... yeasts eat sugars but not starches...
Different enzymes work better at different temperatures....

Alpha and Beta amylase are the primary enzymes at work in the mash.
They have different optimal temperature ranges...

Plus there are the souring effects of lacto, et al.

as long as you are aware of what you are doing, it can work...but
there are plenty of pitfalls to keep you from making the beer you intend...

It's not the same as a same day mash, bit you can still get what you're
after as long as you keep in mind the confounding effects of a long mash...

 

[Pkrd]

I used to BIAB and mash in at (late) lunchtime~ 3pm, finish up after work from 6pm. Worked really well.

What's taking you 8-9 hours? Thats sounds excessive!

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Even if your temperatures don't drop too low, you can end up with thin beer as the beta amylase has more time to work, chopping longer sugar chains into more fermentable shorter chains. You might find you need to increase your mash temp by a few degrees to keep the same attenuation if you mash longer.

 

[Jako]

sounds like a bad idea. i would run the beer off then boil later or if you want to focus on life and not give up this awesome hobby try BIAB. this way you can mash and pull the grain let it drip out and boil once you are ready. but mashing is by far the most important time besides the fermenting and it wouldn't want my hard work to go down the drain.

you can also wake up early and finish before noon or not that we are almost into spring you can brew late.

 

[thedevilandgod]

Norwegian brewers before modern day home-brewing practices would mash for up to a day. Latvian brewers would roast their mash in an oven over five hundred degrees for hours. There are a million different ways to mash. Just because it isn’t what modern home-brewers do doesn’t mean it won’t work or make good beer. Worst case scenario, you try it out and you don’t like the results. At the very least you’ll be making beer, which isn’t the worst thing in the world.

 

[jtratcliff]

Just because it isn’t what modern home-brewers do doesn’t mean it won’t work or make good beer.

Just because medieval Norwegians did it one way centuries ago, doesn't mean you have to ignore modern best practices regarding conversion either ...
As long as you are *aware* of the possible pitfalls of an overnight mash, you can design your recipe around it.

If you just grab any ol' recipe designed for a 60 minute mash and arbitrarily extend the mash to 24 hours, you're not going to get the same beer as if you followed the recipe.
Take into account what we now know about enzymatic activity and tweak the recipe accordingly, and you might be able to get closer to the intended beer.

But as was mentioned, either way, in the end you'll still have beer!

 

[Crice]

I've done this several times, and had no issues. I'll mash in just before heading to bed around 10:00 PM, then start running off into the kettle once I wake up around 5:00-7:00 AM. Helps me get beer done when time is tight on the weekend, especially if it's followed up by a 30 minute boil, a quick pass through the counterflow chiller into a carboy, carboy into temp control, pitch yeast sometime later in the day when temps have settled. Only taken 60-90 minutes out of my Saturday morning, and I've gotten a batch done.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Personal preference, but I don’t like to split a brew day at the mash. I prefer to get it done at one shot so that I don’t have to worry about returning to brewing and cleaning. I am a big proponent of prepping the night before. I treating my water, weigh out the grain, and stage whatever I can the night before. I wake up early and immediately light the burner for the strike water. Most everything else fills in the gaps like milling the grain etc. Mash times are within 90 minutes for gluten free all grain thanks to availability of enzymes. If you are efficient, you can get the batch into the fermentor and get to finishing up the cleaning within 5 hours. So 6 hours total on brew day not including putting everything away after it dries. I agree, in total time it is about 8 hours, but an hour or so the night before and getting up early, you can have most of your weekend brew day for life. Just prep the night before and you can wait as long as you want to put everything away.

 

[milldoggy]

I do it all the time now. I use full volume no sparge mash and let it sit overnight, only lose 10 degs in 8 hours. I wrap mash with reflectix and 4 comforters

 

[thedevilandgod]

Just because medieval Norwegians did it one way centuries ago, doesn't mean you have to ignore modern best practices regarding conversion either ...
As long as you are *aware* of the possible pitfalls of an overnight mash, you can design your recipe around it.

If you just grab any ol' recipe designed for a 60 minute mash and arbitrarily extend the mash to 24 hours, you're not going to get the same beer as if you followed the recipe.
Take into account what we now know about enzymatic activity and tweak the recipe accordingly, and you might be able to get closer to the intended beer.

But as was mentioned, either way, in the end you'll still have beer!

I believe the original post was for three to five hours, so I’m don’t think that the beta-amylase would effect enough of the mash to throw it off too much. Someone else recommended just mashing a bit higher, just to be sure, which sounds like a solid plan.

Really what I wanted to get at is that home-brewing should be fun. If you need to extend a mash a few hours so you can enjoy the brewing process, do it. The beer won’t be ruined, so why not do what’s best for you and enjoy it?

 

[jtratcliff]

If you need to extend a mash a few hours so you can enjoy the brewing process, do it. The beer won’t be ruined, so why not do what’s best for you and enjoy it?

Oh, I hear you... And I agree! I would have no problem extending a mash if I needed to in order to make my brew day work out. But I would also maybe adjust my initial mash temps in order to offset the extended mash... or perhaps add a few ounces of dextrine or melanoidin malt to add to the mouth feel.

It's definitely do-able...

I wasn't trying to be a negative Nancy... Just trying to point out that there are things you can do to ameliorate the unwanted effects of a long mash...

Or a Debbie Downer

 

[chaps]

I used to BIAB and mash in at (late) lunchtime~ 3pm, finish up after work from 6pm. Worked really well.

What's taking you 8-9 hours? Thats sounds excessive!

So how long was your mash? Around 3 hours?

Yeah welcome to all-grain GF brewing in Hawaii!! Everything takes longer.

 

[chaps]

I've done this several times, and had no issues. I'll mash in just before heading to bed around 10:00 PM, then start running off into the kettle once I wake up around 5:00-7:00 AM. Helps me get beer done when time is tight on the weekend, especially if it's followed up by a 30 minute boil, a quick pass through the counterflow chiller into a carboy, carboy into temp control, pitch yeast sometime later in the day when temps have settled. Only taken 60-90 minutes out of my Saturday morning, and I've gotten a batch done.

Thanks for the reply. Was looking for someone who had 1st hand experience. I hadn't even consider doing an overnight mash but that seems like a great way to split things up. I'm a little concerned about running my Mash + Boil overnight. Im assuming you have an electric biab. Did you encounter any problems?

 

[chaps]

I do it all the time now. I use full volume no sparge mash and let it sit overnight, only lose 10 degs in 8 hours. I wrap mash with reflectix and 4 comforters

Any downsides to the Overnight Mash now that you've done it a number of times?

I have a Mash and Boil (electric BIAB) so i can either leave it plugged in and turned on overnight or try to do something similar to yours and wrap it up. I live in hawaii so i can just leave it out back on the lanai overnight plugged in. But also I live in hawaii so i don't have any comforters. Opinions?

 

[chaps]

Personal preference, but I don’t like to split a brew day at the mash. I prefer to get it done at one shot so that I don’t have to worry about returning to brewing and cleaning. I am a big proponent of prepping the night before. I treating my water, weigh out the grain, and stage whatever I can the night before. I wake up early and immediately light the burner for the strike water. Most everything else fills in the gaps like milling the grain etc. Mash times are within 90 minutes for gluten free all grain thanks to availability of enzymes. If you are efficient, you can get the batch into the fermentor and get to finishing up the cleaning within 5 hours. So 6 hours total on brew day not including putting everything away after it dries. I agree, in total time it is about 8 hours, but an hour or so the night before and getting up early, you can have most of your weekend brew day for life. Just prep the night before and you can wait as long as you want to put everything away.

Some of the length is just a reality of being a gluten free brewer (2.5 hour mashes and double grinding everything). Other parts are the reality of living in Hawaii. Ground water that is basically bath temp out of the tap, and tiny homes which means my brewing equipment is in 3 different closets. I tried the 'do a bunch the night before' thing and it definitely helped on brew day. Unfortunately being married living in a small condo means everything needs put away NOW...or else.

 

[chaps]

if your mash temps drop too low. you can end up w/ a dry beer...

Mashing depends on enzymes converting starches to sugars.... yeasts eat sugars but not starches...
Different enzymes work better at different temperatures....

Alpha and Beta amylase are the primary enzymes at work in the mash.
They have different optimal temperature ranges...

Plus there are the souring effects of lacto, et al.

Thankfully none of this applies. Electric BIAB means the temp won't drop to low and its possible to seal the system, and being a GF brewer means I would be happy for the enzymes to do some extra work and possibly get more efficiency out of my grains.

 

[jtratcliff]

Thankfully none of this applies. Electric BIAB means the temp won't drop to low and its possible to seal the system, and being a GF brewer means I would be happy for the enzymes to do some extra work and possibly get more efficiency out of my grains.

Oh yeah, I can see GF brewing needing extra amylase activity... Beta is working in the upper 40's to low 50's... Extended time might actually be beneficial for a GF mash...

For a regular barley mash, you might need to take into account the extra time at lower temps for the beta conversion... But for GF, extended mash might help the final result....

If your temperature controller is programmable enough, you could also add a mash out step to denature the enzymes and then hold temps above 140+ ish... To keep it pasteurized until you're ready to boil...

That should be warm enough to hold off most bugs that want to infect you...

 

[milldoggy]

Any downsides to the Overnight Mash now that you've done it a number of times?

I have a Mash and Boil (electric BIAB) so i can either leave it plugged in and turned on overnight or try to do something similar to yours and wrap it up. I live in hawaii so i can just leave it out back on the lanai overnight plugged in. But also I live in hawaii so i don't have any comforters. Opinions?

Nope, did one Friday night, did not get to brewing till 1:30 the next day, mash was still 145. Insulation is key. My mashed are a little more gummy, but I did use 10 lbs of flaked grains

Btw, I am not a purest GF brewer, I use clarity ferm, so a gluten reduced brewer

 

[DuglasTodesky]

Good questions! good answers!

 

[balrog]

Holding temps during conversion is important
Conversion happens fairly quickly, depending on time to gelatinization, which depends on crush
Enzymes denature at mash temps and don't just keep working forever
Overnight (several hour) mashes are not uncommon, but I have no scientific citations

 

[glutarded-chris]

Some of the length is just a reality of being a gluten free brewer (2.5 hour mashes and double grinding everything). Other parts are the reality of living in Hawaii. Ground water that is basically bath temp out of the tap, and tiny homes which means my brewing equipment is in 3 different closets.

If you use enzymes, you don't need 2.5 hours, you can get total conversion in 1 to 1.5 hours. Since I started using Termamyl, I never go beyond 1.5 hours on the mash.

I live in Florida and probably have much hotter temperatures in the summer when I brew. Totally fine for the brewing but life threatening for me I always use an immersion chiller fed with an ice bath and I get the temp down in under 20 minutes or so for a 5 gallon batch. Double for a 10 gallon batch, but then you avoid a second brew day. I did make my immersion chiller with 50 foot of copper tubing so it does have some heat transfer capability.

I have a monster mill and it takes me about 2 minutes to grind 12lb of grain and maybe and additional 12 minutes to run it through a second time (goes through much slower the second time). I do this while the strike water is heating so I get freshly cracked grain with no additional time added to the brew day.

Maybe with some process/equipment changes you can get the time down a bit regardless if you end up mashing over night! Everything you can do to reduce time is important so that you keep brewing! Good luck and post your results!!!

 

[chaps]

If you use enzymes, you don't need 2.5 hours, you can get total conversion in 1 to 1.5 hours. Since I started using Termamyl, I never go beyond 1.5 hours on the mash.

So now Im super confused. GFHB recommends a 3 hour mash WITH enzymes but you are having success with 60-90 minutes!! What level of efficiency are you aiming for? Im aiming for 75% but am happy with anything above 60. Currently I'm consistently getting about 65%

 

[glutarded-chris]

I get about 23 ppg out of the grain on every batch. There are a lot of posts on this going back a few years. I will dig up some of the links at some point. Basically using temperature stable Termamyl in a ~170F gelatinization step for 15 minutes and then lowering to 140 to 150F and adding Diatase or equivalent enzyme for a second rest, you get consistent conversion in about an hour and an hour and a half total, maybe an hour and 45 min if you really confirm that it is leveling out. Without Termamyl or equivalent you can't properly gelatinize and you have to have very long rests, even with enzymes at the main rest. I got very inconsistent results doing this, probably because there was a lot of variability in the natural enzyme level in the GF malts we have available.

 

[glutarded-chris]

This thread (post #3) was where I found out the huge benefit of Termamyl:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/lets-talk-about-enzymes.639379/
Interesting that it was only a little over a year ago!
Legume on this forum has been using Termamy for years to convert unmalted grain. Check out some of her posts. For some reason it took some of us a long time to catch on.

This thread is where I experimented with the benefit of the high temperature gelatinization rest:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/gf-mashing-experiment.587468/

The “Zero Tolerance Gluten Free Homebrew Club” has a lot of good information and has done some really good work recently. Check out their info: www.zerotolerancebrewing.com
They are really proving out GF brewing methods and helping to perfect processes!