Lambic Discussion Thread

[Kpaxprime]

 

[iong516]

Just ordered the new Boon Vats, a couple 135s, and restocking on Horal... feels good man

 

[sts9fan1]

Does anyone know if the Boon Dicovery boxes are disto in the US?

 

[iong516]

And also, does anyone recall or have a receipt for the cost of a case of A&G 375s from 3F?

 

[BadJustin]

Does anyone know if the Boon Dicovery boxes are disto in the US?

They were on the order sheets for a local distro house here in Upstate NY.

 

[Dunt1]

I saw elsewhere on the site that 3F has decanters? Anyone have a pic of that bad boy?

 

[Saind]

I saw elsewhere on the site that 3F has decanters? Anyone have a pic of that bad boy?

 

[cosmicevan]

damn! gorgeous!

 

[Dunt1]

Oh ****. Are these for sale anywhere?

 

[Saind]

Oh ****. Are these for sale anywhere?

At the brewery, I think they're about €50

 

[lb304854]

Oh ****. Are these for sale anywhere?

I'll paint a 3 on one I pick up from Goodwill and sell it to you for $150

 

[Dunt1]

I'll paint a 3 on one I pick up from Goodwill and sell it to you for $150

This is why we cant have nice things

 

[stupac2]

Fair point, the substrate matters. For "Cork" we assumed your standard Cork Oak cork with tight permeability, e.g a natural cork closure, which is pretty much industry standard for both wine and beer.

A physical object is a barrier to oxygen seeping through from the world to the inside of the bottle. This physical object has particular features that will allow either more or less oxygen to seep through (density of the material, how porous it is, etc.) Cork by its very nature is considered impermeable, which is why it's used. But as it drys out, it does indeed shrink (although to be fair it seems shrinkage is exacerbated with temperature.*) This can allow oxygen in at a higher rate than a cork in better condition, hence why people keep wine (and lambic or other beers) on its side. The better the condition of the cork, the better the seal. It's less about elasticity and more about the degree of permeability. Dried out cork forms a less perfect seal.
























*source: Seinfeld, but also humidity of the cellar can play a part too. Lots of variables.

Well sure, but what I don't understand is why the "drying" is slowed by making contact with the liquid. The headspace inside is already going to be at 100% humidity and it won't dry from there, it'll only lose moisture to the outside. So the pertinent question is whether there's an increase in moisture uptake/transfer through the cork when it's contact with the liquid. Based on what you've said (cork is considered impermeable), and the fact that this is all going pretty slow so there's plenty of time for water molecules to find their way into the cork as either a gas or a liquid, it's just not obvious to me why this would be the case. (Especially for bottles like Cantillon that are corked and capped, where the outside of the cork is also not exposed directly to the atmosphere.) If you have any references that talk about it I'd like to read them.

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

I'll paint a 3 on one I pick up from Goodwill and sell it to you for $150

https://riedelusa.net/riedel/decanters/cabernet-144000013.html

And a white paint pen.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

Gaseous Clay really opened up a can of stupac2 with his comment.

I did this to you all

 

[GetchaPull]

At the brewery, I think they're about €50

55€ and sold out very fast on OBD. Only had a small stack of them.

 

[mateoloco]

I'll paint a 3 on one I pick up from Goodwill and sell it to you for $150

If one with a 3 on it is worth $150, would one with a 9 on it be worth $450?

 

[MooseLang]

If one with a 3 on it is worth $150, would one with a 9 on it be worth $450?

One would think. But when you spend that much, you get enough points to save 5% on your order. But it depends on where the exchange rate is.

 

[wuntrikpony]

One would think. But when you spend that much, you get enough points to save 5% on your order. But it depends on where the exchange rate is.

Euro funny guy.

 

[GetchaPull]

And also, does anyone recall or have a receipt for the cost of a case of A&G 375s from 3F?

IIRC, somewhere in the low 60 euros. 62-64, I think.

 

[iong516]

IIRC, somewhere in the low 60 euros. 62-64, I think.

Thanks! 67.80 per someone on fb

 

[GetchaPull]

Thanks! 67.80 per someone on fb

I must have gotten MooseLang's 5% discount coop-in.

 

[vav1]

Well sure, but what I don't understand is why the "drying" is slowed by making contact with the liquid. The headspace inside is already going to be at 100% humidity and it won't dry from there, it'll only lose moisture to the outside. So the pertinent question is whether there's an increase in moisture uptake/transfer through the cork when it's contact with the liquid. Based on what you've said (cork is considered impermeable), and the fact that this is all going pretty slow so there's plenty of time for water molecules to find their way into the cork as either a gas or a liquid, it's just not obvious to me why this would be the case. (Especially for bottles like Cantillon that are corked and capped, where the outside of the cork is also not exposed directly to the atmosphere.) If you have any references that talk about it I'd like to read them.

It's not a question of "into the cork" but around the cork. When wet, the cork absorbs liquid and expands....and again, this is affected by temperature as well. That creates a tighter seal in the space between the cork and the inside of the neck. Corks lose their ability to seal over time. Keeping it wet is a way of keeping that seal tight longer...this is well established in the wine, which is why it translates. As for cork & cap, it's kinda the same thing: eventually the cap will rust and let oxygen in there too, but again, not through the substrate, but around the seal. 2 barriers are better than 1, though.

I think you're misunderstanding me though: i'm not advocating for one way or the other due to the amount of variables.

Anecdotally, between cellar experiments of my own and others i've had access to & many discussions on the topic with Siebel faculty, that's kinda where we landed, there does seem to be a correlation between upright storage and oxygen pickup. But there's no peer-reviewed papers i've seen on beer aging. So take it with a grain of salt if you'd like, correlation isn't causation.

 

[stupac2]

It's not a question of "into the cork" but around the cork. When wet, the cork absorbs liquid and expands....and again, this is affected by temperature as well. That creates a tighter seal in the space between the cork and the inside of the neck. Corks lose their ability to seal over time. Keeping it wet is a way of keeping that seal tight longer...this is well established in the wine, which is why it translates. As for cork & cap, it's kinda the same thing: eventually the cap will rust and let oxygen in there too, but again, not through the substrate, but around the seal. 2 barriers are better than 1, though.

I think you're misunderstanding me though: i'm not advocating for one way or the other due to the amount of variables.

Anecdotally, between cellar experiments of my own and others i've had access to & many discussions on the topic with Siebel faculty, that's kinda where we landed, there does seem to be a correlation between upright storage and oxygen pickup. But there's no peer-reviewed papers i've seen on beer aging. So take it with a grain of salt if you'd like, correlation isn't causation.

...The cork absorbing water is the same thing as water going into the cork. I'm super confused about why you said corks are considered impermeable, but they also readily absorb water, it can't be both (plus cork is a natural polymer, it's not going to be impermeable). And comparisons to wine are weird for a few reasons:

1) Aren't most corks covered with some kind of polymer now? Any received wisdom from wine would be completely inapplicable.
2) Wine isn't carbonated and that's going to change the atmosphere in the headspace.
3) Wine chemistry is very different.
4) Relying on received wisdom in general is a bad idea, while folk science sometimes works it's way too easy to draw a conclusion based on an insufficient sample and then be stuck with it.

Anyway I'm not really trying to interrogate you here, I'm just perpetually annoyed that no one seems to apply any kind of real scrutiny to these long-held beliefs, instead throwing around bunch of hand-waving to justify what's always been believed. So if there's someone who HAS done the actual legwork I want information from them.

(As somewhat more of an aside, I'm really curious to what extent atmosphere exchange is due to going around the seal vs going through. The whole point of the seal is that there's a uniform thickness around it, and I've read that even new seals have some admittance. I also know for professional reasons that there's some diffusion through just about every material that doesn't have a very rigid matrix of bonds (so like glass, ceramic, metal, etc), and even those you can diffusion for a few molecular lattice lengths. Given that all sealing methods this side of soldering things shut with lead use polymers of some form, there's going to be diffusion through them. I wouldn't be surprised if that accounted for all of the non-complete-failure oxygen admittance.)

 

[wuntrikpony]

It's not a question of "into the cork" but around the cork. When wet, the cork absorbs liquid and expands....and again, this is affected by temperature as well. That creates a tighter seal in the space between the cork and the inside of the neck. Corks lose their ability to seal over time. Keeping it wet is a way of keeping that seal tight longer...this is well established in the wine, which is why it translates. As for cork & cap, it's kinda the same thing: eventually the cap will rust and let oxygen in there too, but again, not through the substrate, but around the seal. 2 barriers are better than 1, though.

I think you're misunderstanding me though: i'm not advocating for one way or the other due to the amount of variables.

Anecdotally, between cellar experiments of my own and others i've had access to & many discussions on the topic with Siebel faculty, that's kinda where we landed, there does seem to be a correlation between upright storage and oxygen pickup. But there's no peer-reviewed papers i've seen on beer aging. So take it with a grain of salt if you'd like, correlation isn't causation.

...The cork absorbing water is the same thing as water going into the cork. I'm super confused about why you said corks are considered impermeable, but they also readily absorb water, it can't be both (plus cork is a natural polymer, it's not going to be impermeable). And comparisons to wine are weird for a few reasons:

1) Aren't most corks covered with some kind of polymer now? Any received wisdom from wine would be completely inapplicable.
2) Wine isn't carbonated and that's going to change the atmosphere in the headspace.
3) Wine chemistry is very different.
4) Relying on received wisdom in general is a bad idea, while folk science sometimes works it's way too easy to draw a conclusion based on an insufficient sample and then be stuck with it.

Anyway I'm not really trying to interrogate you here, I'm just perpetually annoyed that no one seems to apply any kind of real scrutiny to these long-held beliefs, instead throwing around bunch of hand-waving to justify what's always been believed. So if there's someone who HAS done the actual legwork I want information from them.

(As somewhat more of an aside, I'm really curious to what extent atmosphere exchange is due to going around the seal vs going through. The whole point of the seal is that there's a uniform thickness around it, and I've read that even new seals have some admittance. I also know for professional reasons that there's some diffusion through just about every material that doesn't have a very rigid matrix of bonds (so like glass, ceramic, metal, etc), and even those you can diffusion for a few molecular lattice lengths. Given that all sealing methods this side of soldering things shut with lead use polymers of some form, there's going to be diffusion through them. I wouldn't be surprised if that accounted for all of the non-complete-failure oxygen admittance.)

INRAT

 

[RyanG1]

INRAT

Put a cork in it.

 

[lazerviking]

In all seriousness, stupac2's commitment to this cause is one of my favorite things.

 

[quirk6]

In all seriousness, stupac2's commitment to this cause is one of my favorite things.

 

[BadJustin]

Jesus Christ you nerds. Stop.

 

[vav1]

Oh dude no worries, i don't feel interrogated at all, it's a cool subject to discuss with you, you've clearly thought about this as much as i have!

In turn:

...The cork absorbing water is the same thing as water going into the cork. I'm super confused about why you said corks are considered impermeable, but they also readily absorb water, it can't be both (plus cork is a natural polymer, it's not going to be impermeable).

Porosity is not the same thing as Impermeability. Many things are considered impermeable and are still porous: Our skin is a good example of this. Cork is the same way. Also, remember there are all those natural fissures/chambers/imperfections in each individual cork, all of which will expand and contract based upon all those fun variables of temperature, humidity, etc, where water/liquid can be stored and/or emptied (drying out, as it were.) Maybe i should clarify: I'm using Impermeable in the quantitative sense (e.g. permeability is measured in units of darcy.)

And comparisons to wine are weird for a few reasons:

1) Aren't most corks covered with some kind of polymer now? Any received wisdom from wine would be completely inapplicable.
2) Wine isn't carbonated and that's going to change the atmosphere in the headspace.
3) Wine chemistry is very different.
4) Relying on received wisdom in general is a bad idea, while folk science sometimes works it's way too easy to draw a conclusion based on an insufficient sample and then be stuck with it.

1: Not that i'm aware of, but i don't think you can dismiss the wine world's experience so easily. It's still a good starting point. I will grant you, however, most literature out there is more interested in the formation of TCA than the actual mechanics of oxygen seepage.

2 & 3: The variables in the liquid matter, yes, but we're primarily talking about the cork, and this whole conversation falls down if we're not speaking the same language regarding the barrier first and foremost. Carbonation, however, is definitely worth bringing up because pressure can change the permeability of the cork.

4: Yep see point 1. Again, i'm not saying this is empirical, i'm offering my hypothesis.

I'm just perpetually annoyed that no one seems to apply any kind of real scrutiny to these long-held beliefs, instead throwing around bunch of hand-waving to justify what's always been believed. So if there's someone who HAS done the actual legwork I want information from them.

Agreed, actually. But, like i said, the conclusion Siebel and i came to was too in our discussions was "too many variables." Still, i kinda think that's a cop out...i'd love to see them or UC Davis do an actual study.

(As somewhat more of an aside, I'm really curious to what extent atmosphere exchange is due to going around the seal vs going through. The whole point of the seal is that there's a uniform thickness around it, and I've read that even new seals have some admittance. I also know for professional reasons that there's some diffusion through just about every material that doesn't have a very rigid matrix of bonds (so like glass, ceramic, metal, etc), and even those you can diffusion for a few molecular lattice lengths. Given that all sealing methods this side of soldering things shut with lead use polymers of some form, there's going to be diffusion through them. I wouldn't be surprised if that accounted for all of the non-complete-failure oxygen admittance.)

I would think the majority of admittance happens directly at sealing, and after that the majority probably comes from failure of the barrier itself, whether as failure to seal or failure of substrate. Occam's razor: If there's a hole you've plugging and the **** still leaks, it's probably coming from the hole. Diffusion ain't my strong point, so i dunno.

#talknerd