Lambic Discussion Thread

[stupac2]

Upright or on its side?

 

[Gaseous Clay]

I ask because I've had corks dry out dry from keeping bottles upright (before I had a dedicated wine fridge for my lambic where all bottles are kept on their side), and the oxidization has altered the flavor profile of the beer. I know it's a widely debated topic and people feel strongly about whatever side of the fence they're on. I hope I didn't reopen a can of worms here

 

[stupac2]

I ask because I've had corks dry out dry from keeping bottles upright (before I had a dedicated wine fridge for my lambic where all bottles are kept on their side), and the oxidization has altered the flavor profile of the beer. I know it's a widely debated topic and people feel strongly about whatever side of the fence they're on. I hope I didn't reopen a can of worms here

I'm sorry, but I really doubt this. You might have had corks fail, but I really doubt it's because they dried out. First, I've literally never heard of beer corks drying out before. Second, the studies that have been done with Champagne (the best we have, and probably applicable to champagne-style bottles) found corks more likely to fail on their side, not upright. Third, no regularly produced beer from the last decade has a wine cork that's exposed to atmosphere, so what is causing it to dry out? Where is the moisture going? The area inside the bottle obviously has 100% humidity, and there's a cap preventing anything but the slowest moisture egress on the other side, so how is it drying?

I've never encountered any rationale for one storage method or the other that makes any sense at all, and that's a pretty well known stance (though you're apparently super new here), hence the gif.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

I'm sorry, but I really doubt this. You might have had corks fail, but I really doubt it's because they dried out. First, I've literally never heard of beer corks drying out before. Second, the studies that have been done with Champagne (the best we have, and probably applicable to champagne-style bottles) found corks more likely to fail on their side, not upright. Third, no regularly produced beer from the last decade has a wine cork that's exposed to atmosphere, so what is causing it to dry out? Where is the moisture going? The area inside the bottle obviously has 100% humidity, and there's a cap preventing anything but the slowest moisture egress on the other side, so how is it drying?

I've never encountered any rationale for one storage method or the other that makes any sense at all, and that's a pretty well known stance (though you're apparently super new here), hence the gif.

No need to apologize. I dont take you disagreeing with me as an insult. Neither of us are experts here

You make some good points, who is to say that the reason a few of my corks have failed in the past is due to vertical storage vs horizontal storage. The corks on the bottles that failed were indeed quite dry, as compared to corks that...well..didnt feel so dry! I assumed it was due to the storage, as I have heard from countless peers in the community that, over time, corks left on bottles stored vertical will dry out. Cantillon caps are notoriously weak, and bottles like 3F that are corked in the champagne style without the caps leave vulnerability toward oxidizing due to direct contact with the air. It is also a possibility that the relative humidity in my former storage space played a part in the cork failure/drying out.

I suppose the core of my original question was this: could the beer in question, the posters 2012 Iris, have become oxidized?

 

[wyatt1]

Some bottles of Cantillon are off. It's like the Tome lottery with way better odds.

 

[stupac2]

No need to apologize. I dont take you disagreeing with me as an insult. Neither of us are experts here

You make some good points, who is to say that the reason a few of my corks have failed in the past is due to vertical storage vs horizontal storage. The corks on the bottles that failed were indeed quite dry, as compared to corks that...well..didnt feel so dry! I assumed it was due to the storage, as I have heard from countless peers in the community that, over time, corks left on bottles stored vertical will dry out. Cantillon caps are notoriously weak, and bottles like 3F that are corked in the champagne style without the caps leave vulnerability toward oxidizing due to direct contact with the air. It is also a possibility that the relative humidity in my former storage space played a part in the cork failure/drying out.

I suppose the core of my original question was this: could the beer in question, the posters 2012 Iris, have become oxidized?

I mean, they could have dried out, I'm obviously not omniscient. But, for the reasons I listed, I think it's more likely that the corks failed for some other reason (if it were Cantillon I think the reason would be "their corks are absolute ****, especially before the recent change). Pretty much every method of sealing has a finite failure rate, if you have enough bottles and enough time some will fail. But there's not much evidence (or rationale) for why failures would happen more in any given orientation. (There are almost certainly things that could affect the seal, like temperature fluctuations or high temperatures, moisture, etc, but it's not clear to me why orientation would matter.)

Second, beers can be off for reasons besides oxidation, and oxidation doesn't necessarily mean that atmosphere got into the bottle. Many of the flaws that I think people think of as oxidation actually come from reactions that are just due to increased temperatures (trans-2-nonenol aka "wet cardboard" being the most prominent). There could also have been a flaw at bottling that introduced more oxidants, or other off flavors, but I think that's less likely. And, like wyatt mentioned, loldor might've just lost the Cantillon lottery, it happens sometimes. (Oh, and there's always cork taint, which I've had happen once with Cantillon, but I suspect that wasn't what happened here either.)

But, really, the biggest thing with this particular bottle is that Iris is a weird and divisive beer and some people just don't like it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if nothing were wrong with the bottle and loldor just doesn't like Iris. It's certainly not my cup of tea, I won't begrudge anyone who likes it, but I'm not ever going to pay money for it any more.

 

[boogercrack]

Im firmly in the "it doesnt matter" camp, but find this label from vat 109 fun insinuating not to lay flat.


And yet.... every lambic producer I am aware of has their bottles flat.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

I mean, they could have dried out, I'm obviously not omniscient. But, for the reasons I listed, I think it's more likely that the corks failed for some other reason (if it were Cantillon I think the reason would be "their corks are absolute ****, especially before the recent change). Pretty much every method of sealing has a finite failure rate, if you have enough bottles and enough time some will fail. But there's not much evidence (or rationale) for why failures would happen more in any given orientation. (There are almost certainly things that could affect the seal, like temperature fluctuations or high temperatures, moisture, etc, but it's not clear to me why orientation would matter.)

Second, beers can be off for reasons besides oxidation, and oxidation doesn't necessarily mean that atmosphere got into the bottle. Many of the flaws that I think people think of as oxidation actually come from reactions that are just due to increased temperatures (trans-2-nonenol aka "wet cardboard" being the most prominent). There could also have been a flaw at bottling that introduced more oxidants, or other off flavors, but I think that's less likely. And, like wyatt mentioned, loldor might've just lost the Cantillon lottery, it happens sometimes. (Oh, and there's always cork taint, which I've had happen once with Cantillon, but I suspect that wasn't what happened here either.)

But, really, the biggest thing with this particular bottle is that Iris is a weird and divisive beer and some people just don't like it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if nothing were wrong with the bottle and loldor just doesn't like Iris. It's certainly not my cup of tea, I won't begrudge anyone who likes it, but I'm not ever going to pay money for it any more.

Right. I feel that you may have misunderstood my line of questioning as something it wasnt meant to be. I was just curious if any of the elements I questioned about could have played a part in the development of an off-taste in his beer, but I wasnt set on any one of those being a definite reason for the off-taste. As I said, the debate regarding lambic storage (horizontal v. vertical) is a rather polarizing topic. I appreciate your input on the discussion, you clearly know a lot.

Iris is an odd beer, and i'll admit I too am not the biggest fan of it with only a few years on it, but Iris with some age (read 10+ years on it) is something out of this world.

To each their own.

 

[user 308679]

Nice drop of VAT 109 here in CO, and all of them upright. I wonder if it's related to the GABF drops that have recently begun. Either way, no complaints, although $18 is a tough pill.

 

[CornAndBeer]

All Boon lambics have that crossed out horizontal bottle and the vertical bottle .

VAT 109 has been going around, Nebraska received it about 6 weeks ago, cheers.

 

[loldor]

Thank you for all the interest. I'm really curious what the cause of the smell is, so happy to get some help. To get into two responses in particular:

Sounds very similar to the 2015 bottle I had maybe a year ago. I was bummed when I got acetic (vinegar) notes initially. It faded as it warmed (unexpectedly). I even did a second Untappd check in after the vinegar faded. I've had Iris maybe five or six times in my life and that only happened once.

The bottle was at room temperature when I opened it. So it may have been something evaporating, but I don't think serving temperature was a factor. When poring my second glass it was again highly notable, so I don't think me or my nose getting accustomed to the smell was a factor either.

Never noticed acetone type scents in any lambic bottle I've opened, so I'm rather curious about your bottle.

How was it stored over the years? Upright or on its side? Temperature controlled? Light controlled? As I'm sure you're aware these variables play a part in how the beer will develop over time.

To be sure, I'm not 100% certain it was an acetone smell. As I said I'm bad at recognizing smells. The description is definately influenced by my knowledge that acetone is a smell that can occur in case of defects.

The bottle was bought by me at Cantillon and was stored sideways at all times. I did move during these years and while it started in my 'cellar' (crawling space), it spent at least the last year in my living room. My house is well insulated and doesn't really get warmer than 20 degrees. It was never exposed to direct sunlight.

To exclude cellaring conditions and for science I will open another bottle (no more Iris again though) that was kept in similar conditions.

 

[Maakun]

I've had acetone before in Hanssens and De Cam fruited lambics, definately not uncommon though I've never had it in Cantillon. It really seems to be a bottle variation thing, as other bottles from the same batches didn't have any acetone/glue/chemical stuff.

 

[SinH4]

I've had acetone before in Hanssens and De Cam fruited lambics, definately not uncommon though I've never had it in Cantillon. It really seems to be a bottle variation thing, as other bottles from the same batches didn't have any acetone/glue/chemical stuff.

Indeed.

 

[2plums4one]

Sounds very similar to the 2015 bottle I had maybe a year ago. I was bummed when I got acetic (vinegar) notes initially. It faded as it warmed (unexpectedly). I even did a second Untappd check in after the vinegar faded. I've had Iris maybe five or six times in my life and that only happened once.

I had a bottle the other night from 2016 that was completely still and just a little off. I just assumed that's what happens when you get your 21 year old cousin to GPIUFMB at his local store and don't get it from him immediately. I'm thinking it got too hot at one point in the 2 months before I could pick it up from him. Lesson learned. No acetone but definitely different. More like zwanze 13(?), whatever the iris GC one was. I do think storage was the culprit on mine.

 

[2plums4one]

(There are almost certainly things that could affect the seal, like temperature fluctuations or high temperatures, moisture, etc, but it's not clear to me why orientation would matter.)

And this is what it really boils down to, other than loon corks being crap sometimes which you already mentioned. I prefer horizontal but only because that's how the breweries store them.

 

[stakem1]

Is it safe to assume this first bottling of Nath is limited and probably wont be a to-go item? It seems like a decent bit of it got kegged for Zwanze day which would impact total bottles to begin with. Only reason I ask is this is the first beer my wife ever requested I get. She being a school teacher, yadda yadda... wondering if its best to put this ISO on the backburner for next time its produced.

 

[LuxWanderer]

Is it safe to assume this first bottling of Nath is limited and probably wont be a to-go item? It seems like a decent bit of it got kegged for Zwanze day which would impact total bottles to begin with. Only reason I ask is this is the first beer my wife ever requested I get. She being a school teacher, yadda yadda... wondering if its best to put this ISO on the backburner for next time its produced.

Jean said it would be to-go too but guess we will wait till that actually occurs. Never know these days

 

[SeaWatchman]

Is it safe to assume this first bottling of Nath is limited and probably wont be a to-go item? It seems like a decent bit of it got kegged for Zwanze day which would impact total bottles to begin with. Only reason I ask is this is the first beer my wife ever requested I get. She being a school teacher, yadda yadda... wondering if its best to put this ISO on the backburner for next time its produced.

I know of one shop that received some bottles and there are likely more, so I assume it will be coming out eventually. Lots of it around for Zwanze Day in kegs for sure. We were there during the whole bottling process and it seemed like quite a lot of them were around. Once it starts moving, I'm sure it won't be too terrible to get.

 

[stupac2]

Right. I feel that you may have misunderstood my line of questioning as something it wasnt meant to be. I was just curious if any of the elements I questioned about could have played a part in the development of an off-taste in his beer, but I wasnt set on any one of those being a definite reason for the off-taste. As I said, the debate regarding lambic storage (horizontal v. vertical) is a rather polarizing topic. I appreciate your input on the discussion, you clearly know a lot.

Iris is an odd beer, and i'll admit I too am not the biggest fan of it with only a few years on it, but Iris with some age (read 10+ years on it) is something out of this world.

To each their own.

I'm not yelling at you or anything, the gif was mostly posted for dem likes. I tend to think that people stress too much about this and should just do whatever works. There's a lot of **** that can go wrong when cellaring beer, but very little of it is going to be the fault of the cellar-dude. (Like I said, temperature is the main exception, even short exposures to high temperatures can be very damaging.)

 

[Lamnic]

Over the years I've come to the conclusion that there isn't an answer for storing your Lambic. Breweries mostly store sideways because it's efficient for space. Some claim the better yeast exposure causes the bottle conditioning to occur more quickly. I think that's true, though it doesn't make a huge difference. Some argue that sideways means zero oxygen ingress over time. There is no hard proof of that, but it has merit. It is true that American wilds SHOULD be stored upright.
In the end I like storing my Lambic sideways because my fridge calls for it, and I saved some Cantillon and 3F boxes which also keep the bottles sideways. My excess bottles just go on the shelf upright.

 

[wuntrikpony]

It is true that American wilds SHOULD be stored upright.

This is how we store American wilds around here.

 

[matedog]

It is true that American wilds SHOULD be stored upright.

Not to contribute to this overdone debate, but there is no reason lambic should be stored differently than non-lambic.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

For those still waiting on an email from Etre (re: OBD shipments) I suggest reaching out via their website. Turns out they sent an email last week but it never made it to my inbox. Now to play the anxiety inducing waiting game

 

[ggfunk]

Do they traditionally serve lambic in baskets because it is stored on its side, or the other way around?

 

[stakem1]

Do they traditionally serve lambic in baskets because it is stored on its side, or the other way around?

The only reason lambic is served in a basket is because some people have an Easter bunny fetish. There is no other explanation.

 

[boogercrack]

The only reason lambic is served in a basket is because some people have an Easter bunny fetish. There is no other explanation.

And white people saying Wicker, Plz.

 

[vav1]

So for all you Seattle folks, you're in luck: Someone ****** up and sent a layer of my lambic out there. So enjoy it while you can. Untappd is showing check ins at Stumbling Monk, Elizabeth Station, Pint Defiance, and a few others.

-_________________________________-

 

[FoudreGuy]

So for all you Seattle folks, you're in luck: Someone ****** up and sent a layer of my lambic out there. So enjoy it while you can. Untappd is showing check ins at Stumbling Monk, Elizabeth Station, Pint Defiance, and a few others.

-_________________________________-

Yeah, it's been here for a while now. I've had it at Chucks CD and Slowboat Tavern.

Could be that Merchant du Vin is based here.

 

[nathanmiller]

I store all of my lambic in individual lambic baskets. It takes up far more room and makes stacking harder, but I swear it tastes better.

 

[vav1]

Yeah, it's been here for a while now. I've had it at Chucks CD and Slowboat Tavern.

Could be that Merchant du Vin is based here.

According to MdV, it was a single layer that landed onto a Seattle pallet by accident. I don't really read reviews so didn't notice it until i was ******* around on Untappd the other day looking for something and saw quite the surprise.

I actually called one of the spots too and was like "Hey so do you have this Lambic?" "Sure do." "Cool. That's my Lambic, how'd you get it?" "Uhhhh."

Dude was super nice tho, CoCo was his name....i think Elizabeth Station it was? I guess he does this bangin' sour event every year so i'm not too mad about him getting it.