Lambic Discussion Thread

[stupac2]

Never heard about that mL of O2 per year thing but that sounds like a lot. I believe the industry standard for DO at packaging is under 300ppb for most styles.

As for overselling how bad O2 is that may be the case with lambic, I'm not sure. It would be interesting to do a study on the bugs and the oxygen intake in the barrel but that would go way more in depth than a beer forum discussion. I will say though, I've done some sensory analysis with some lagers and pale ales that were oxygenated (barely above the threshold) on purpose and the flavor change was very noticeable. On the other hand, the majority of us could not tell the difference between several macro lagers with distilled and deoxygenated water added.

Well, industry standard for what? Cans probably have close to no ingress. At any rate I'm doing a little project on this and there is some paper somewhere that I read recently that described oxygen ingress through at least wine corks, but I can't find it right now and don't have time to dig through. When I get time and remember I'll get back to you, but suffice it to say I found that surprising as well. Though, if you think about it more, it's not particularly surprising because gases diffuse through plastics. Traveling on the order of a few mm (which is probably the diffusion barrier on a cap) is something radon can do in a week or two, oxygen is probably an even better diffuser just because it has a smaller radius. (I work with radon a lot so I know this well, and then am making some assumptions about comparing it to oxygen that aren't particularly well founded but are close enough to make me think they're okay.)

Side note, I got into a debate with my stepdad over christmas. He was arguing that wine corks don't let in any oxygen (or at least they shouldn't) and the tired "let it on its side to keep the cork wet" adage I've heard a lot. My understanding from reading on these boards is more in line with what you said. Essentially oxidation is inevitable over time and that you are essentially hoping for "good" (depending on your tastes), controlled oxidation. Is that correct?

Wine corks absolutely let in oxygen, if you think about it at all there's no way they wouldn't. You've got a compressed agglomeration of natural particles being held in with friction, of course there's a diffusion path through there. As above a quick search didn't turn up the citation I had for this (because I am not very organized with this yet) but oxygen definitely gets in through wine corks and IIRC without it wine wouldn't age the way it does. Oxidation is not all bad! Also, oxidation can happen without oxygen! The confusion about this out there is annoying. So you're right about that, at least as far as I know.

As for the cork being wet, I don't really know. It's definitely the consensus in the wine world, and I don't care enough about wine to really look into it thoroughly. But even stored on its side wine corks will lose elasticity with time, that's just inevitable. Maybe someone here knows if it actually matters, all I know is that it doesn't for beer. Wine is a different beast.

 

[JCastle1]

Well, industry standard for what? Cans probably have close to no ingress.

Dissolved oxygen in the product at the time of packaging, this isn't accounting for uptake after bottling. I'll try to find the exact numbers from the equipment manufacturers, I don't measure DO personally.

 

[Snarf1]

I hope most of the last couple pages has been trolling.

 

[stupac2]

Dissolved oxygen in the product at the time of packaging, this isn't accounting for uptake after bottling. I'll try to find the exact numbers from the equipment manufacturers, I don't measure DO personally.

Well yes, but for what packaging and which producers? I highly doubt pretty much anyone smaller than Sierra can hit that, I remember reading that they were really happy once they got <1 ppm, but that it was pretty recently. I could be misremembering that, though. I do know that macros go crazy with it because they can and it helps their stability a lot.

 

[Snarf1]

Oxygen and lambic. Hansenns and De Cam beers both get a lot of oxygen at various points after brewing. What else do you need to know exactly?

 

[JCastle1]

Well yes, but for what packaging and which producers? I highly doubt pretty much anyone smaller than Sierra can hit that, I remember reading that they were really happy once they got <1 ppm, but that it was pretty recently. I could be misremembering that, though. I do know that macros go crazy with it because they can and it helps their stability a lot.

Couldn't find the exact link I was looking for but this is one of the manufacturers I had looked at. It says 60-100 ppb for bottle/cans (I'm assuming for larger breweries, though I recall hearing similar numbers from a smaller brewer that started using the Wild Goose canning lines): https://tapintohach.com/2012/05/14/...oxygen-content-what-is-the-industry-standard/

Then some interesting discussion here: http://discussions.probrewer.com/showthread.php?26775-Dissolved-Oxygen-levels-chart

I think under 500ppb is achievable by small/mid-size breweries with good equipment and practices (especially at filtering/transferring), it's just that the majority don't measure their DO levels.

Anyway, I'm done. This got too far off topic so here's some lambic, 4 euro for Rose de Gambrinus mmm....

 

[boogercrack]

I hope most of the last couple pages has been trolling.

 

[JohnfromPurdue]

I also wonder what distilleries use when cutting their barrel proof...

RO water

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Some reflections/ check in notes for vintage stuff from Sunday. Tried to be descriptive to offer any insight to people holding these bottles. Obviously subjective:

• All the seasons are drinking superbly. Herfst we had was the short cork that they used in the 2011 Golden Blends and had pushed up and bent. Bottle was not oxy'ed, just had light carbonation. Really funny to see that all 4 seasons bottles had different corks, with the Herfst cork being absolutely tiny compared to the rest. Coincidentally, we had a 2011 Golden Blend that drank flawlessly.
  
  
• A&G was so incredibly different from all the vintage lambic. It smelled so citrusy and perfumey by comparison, especially after decant. Much brighter. Genuinely seemed like a different breed of beverage.

• Bierpalletiers 0966/1500 was a dud- oxy'ed and getting weird with it. Cork in that guy was absurdly small. Bummer. Lambikstoemper, on the other hand, was really charged with carb and needed a little decant to chill-out and show full character.

• 07 Iris was stellar and evolving into the Super Saiyan form Iris can age into. Orange peel for days and an almost coffee like roasted note. 13 Iris tasted green, like Mamouche somehow.

• The two OGV 12 bottlings we had (375 and 750) a decent bit different. Both were electric, loud and tasty as hell. The small format was a bit "cheesier" smelling or something, not as nutty.

• 2015 Blabaer was much more tannic this time than fresh. Seems like some of the sweetness that made it kind of juicy is gone. It tastes like Blabaer, clear cut.

• 2011 Vig was not yet in the insanely acidic realm some older bottles seem to get to. 2013 Lam was true to that vintage, funky and musty with lots of fruit.

• Lambik Orhwal was baller as ****. Kind of like a complex Cuvée De Ranke or something. Lots of Orval notes, brett-centric and smooth.

 

[stakem1]

Some reflections/ check in notes for vintage stuff from Sunday. Tried to be descriptive to offer any insight to people holding these bottles. Obviously very subjective:

• All the seasons are drinking superbly. Herfst we had was the short cork that they used in the 2011 Golden Blends and had pushed up and bent. Bottle was not oxy'ed, just had light carbonation. Really funny to see that all 4 seasons bottles had different corks, with the Herfst cork being absolutely tiny compared to the rest. Coincidentally, we had a 2011 Golden Blend that drank flawlessly.

• Bierpalletiers 0966/1500 was a dud- oxy'ed and getting weird with it. Cork in that guy was absurdly small. Bummer. Lambikstoemper, on the other hand, was really charged with carb and needed a little decant to chill-out and show full character.

• 07 Iris was stellar and evolving into the Super Saiyan form Iris can age into. Orange peel for days and an almost coffee like roasted note. 13 Iris tasted green, like Mamouche somehow.

• The two OGV 12 bottlings we had (375 and 750) a decent bit different. Both were electric, loud and tasty as hell. The small format was a bit "cheesier" smelling or something, not as nutty.

• 2015 Blabaer was much more tannic this time than fresh. Seems like some of the sweetness that made it kind of juicy is gone. It tastes like Blabaer, clear cut.

• 2011 Vig was not yet in the insanely acidic realm some older bottles seem to get to.

• Lambik Orhwal was baller as ****. Kind of like a complex Cuvée De Ranke or something. Lots of Orval notes, brett-centric and smooth.

Fkkk sorry man :/

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Fkkk sorry man :/

Such is lambic my man. The bottle was still a cool piece of history, even just to behold. Beautiful dusty thing, thanks a ton and more.

 

[stakem1]

Such is lambic my man. The bottle was still a cool piece of history, even just to behold. Beautiful dusty thing, thanks a ton and more.

Just goes to show that my thinking behind the amount of sediment having some correlation to the level of carbonation and subsequently how good the bottle will be is not 100% accurate. The last bottle I opened had minimal sediment, was explosively carbonated and just a beautiful experience of bright tropical gooziness. The bottle I sent (assuming it was the one I sent?) had even more sediment than the one I opened. I thought for sure it was gonna be a good one. I feel like a ******** now.

 

[Digita7693]

That Ohrwal!!!

 

[Snarf1]

That Ohrwal!!!

People trading for a beer that some guy made by dumping a bunch of lambic and some orval in a speidel and then rebottling it. Strange world we live in.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Just goes to show that my thinking behind the amount of sediment having some correlation to the level of carbonation and subsequently how good the bottle will be is not 100% accurate. The last bottle I opened had minimal sediment, was explosively carbonated and just a beautiful experience of bright tropical gooziness. The bottle I sent (assuming it was the one I sent?) had even more sediment than the one I opened. I thought for sure it was gonna be a good one. I feel like a ******** now.

The tasting had a good number of TalkBeer guys, many of whom had consumed bottles of the beer in the past. We talked about the bottle and if it would be good. Noone had seen a dud, though almost if not all had heard of them. We looked at the dregs. We talked the normal 'what ifs' like nerds who could just pop the bottle like some preverse nerd foreplay.

It was part of the fun. ****, people spend stacks on bottles like Neuf Nations that are just full of spoiled garbage at this point. You sent a bottle you had wonderful experiences on good will alone. A ********, you are not.

That Ohrwal!!!

Enough cannot be said about that one. Complex enough to analyze all day, crushable enough to drink all day. Just not obtainable...

 

[NAD1983]

It always makes me sad to see the issues with certain (most?) bottles of Bierpallitiers. I drank it side by side with Zenne last year and although completely different beasts, most agreed Bierpallitiers tasted better.

 

[bauermj]

Fwiw Dunt brought a Bierpallitiers (I think from stakem) to dinner a few weeks ago & it was great. Sounds like a lottery

 

[Snarf1]

Fwiw Dunt brought a Bierpallitiers (I think from stakem) to dinner a few weeks ago & it was great. Sounds like a lottery

It was a lazy blend and the bottles that never carbed range from meh to bad. Hoping I find a deal on flights and that I'm sipping some in a few months at the fest.

 

[stakem1]

It always makes me sad to see the issues with certain (most?) bottles of Bierpallitiers. I drank it side by side with Zenne last year and although completely different beasts, most agreed Bierpallitiers tasted better.

Maybe im just really lucky because my good experiences with this beer have been more frequent than the bad ones. When that beer is good, its REALLY good. Which is the reason I went all out and completed numerous trades to acquire a bunch.

 

[Digita7693]

People trading for a beer that some guy made by dumping a bunch of lambic and some orval in a speidel and then rebottling it. Strange world we live in.

Good beer is good beer.

 

[JCastle1]

Good beer is good beer.

And that particular beer is ridiculously good. I'd rather trade for that than FL homebrew stouts

 

[Snarf1]

Good beer is good beer.

Says the guy always trying to unload Uli bottles..

 

[Digita7693]

Says the guy always trying to unload Uli bottles..

Unload? I think I've traded 4 bottles and consumed 25+, and never forced anyone trade with me, and I suspect all those who have traded with me would say I'm more than fair; but if you have some issue w my trading habits please feel free to voice them here.

By your definition couldn't one consider trading any item in high demand for something else as "unloading"? Whether this be the recent canned IPA, adjunct stout, wild ale, lambic, whiskey etc?

 

[Snarf1]

Unload? I think I've traded 4 bottles and consumed 25+, and never forced anyone trade with me, and I suspect all those who have traded with me would say I'm more than fair; but if you have some issue w my trading habits please feel free to voice them here.

By your definition couldn't one consider trading any item in high demand for something else as "unloading"? Whether this be the recent canned IPA, adjunct stout, wild ale, lambic, whiskey etc?

Defensive much? I've seen you post ISO:whisk(e)y FT: stuff including Uli bottles numerous times. Uli didn't sound too keen on people trading his beer when I asked him about it, so I figured I'd get a rise out of you, and it worked. That's all. It's your beer, do whatever you want with it.

 

[JulianB1]

Someone just bought a Blauw on MBC for 2000 bucks.

 

[Compton25]

Someone just bought a Blauw on MBC for 2000 bucks.

Jokes on them.... it's already opened!

 

[LukeAleTime]

This article is being shared around and praised but afaik there is no basis in fact. But... I have no idea why the name. I'm guessing it's because it used to have kriek and vanilla blended so it wasn't a complete Framboise? Does anyone know for sure?

(I checked Lambic.info ofc SeaWatchman )

Placing tradition above all, Cantillon vowed to continue to produce their raspberry Lambic the original way.

So to let consumers know this wasn’t an artificially sweetened sugary beer, instead of calling their raspberry Lambic a framboise, they called it a rosé (after its blush hue), and dedicated it to Gambrinus, a “legendary European culture hero celebrated as an icon of beer, brewing, joviality and joie de vivre.”

So there you have it, Rosé de Gambrinus.

https://watsonscorner.beer/2017/01/12/cantillon-rose-de-gambrinus/

 

[JCastle1]

This article is being shared around and praised but afaik there is no basis in fact. But... I have no idea why the name. I'm guessing it's because it used to have kriek and vanilla blended so it wasn't a complete Framboise? Does anyone know for sure?

(I checked Lambic.info ofc SeaWatchman )



https://watsonscorner.beer/2017/01/12/cantillon-rose-de-gambrinus/

Edit: I just repeated what you said, I suck at reading.

I may be making **** up but I remember hearing that Rose used to have cherries to add color so it wasn't 100% a framboise. Maybe that could be it?

 

[NAD1983]

This article is being shared around and praised but afaik there is no basis in fact. But... I have no idea why the name. I'm guessing it's because it used to have kriek and vanilla blended so it wasn't a complete Framboise? Does anyone know for sure?

(I checked Lambic.info ofc SeaWatchman )



https://watsonscorner.beer/2017/01/12/cantillon-rose-de-gambrinus/

My favorite quote: "I can’t say I’m too pleased to see a cartoon of a naked woman on the bottle label, as women have a hard enough time being taken seriously in this industry, and labels like these certainly don’t help matters."

 

[SeaWatchman]

This article is being shared around and praised but afaik there is no basis in fact. But... I have no idea why the name. I'm guessing it's because it used to have kriek and vanilla blended so it wasn't a complete Framboise? Does anyone know for sure?

(I checked Lambic.info ofc SeaWatchman )



https://watsonscorner.beer/2017/01/12/cantillon-rose-de-gambrinus/

Will have a full response to this including quotes from JPVR in a bit.