Lambic Discussion Thread

[JCastle1]

Thoughts on De Cam Nectarine? And what's the consensus on Tilquin Squared vs Tilquin Mure? Got the chance to grab a few new things today, thinking about what to buy.

 

[LuxWanderer]

Thoughts on De Cam Nectarine? And what's the consensus on Tilquin Squared vs Tilquin Mure? Got the chance to grab a few new things today, thinking about what to buy.

If my budget was limited I would just buy the 2 Tilquin. Current batch Mure > Current batch Squared at this moment for me. I really enjoyed the nectarine but there have been some bottles a little off.

 

[Snarf1]

What is the suspect bottle date-ish?

16-12-15? Stubs ?

 

[Stubs]

16-12-15? Stubs ?

Yep. Tasted like bad AWAs taste.

 

[Snarf1]

Yep. Tasted like bad AWAs taste.

That's interesting. I think the beer is 6mo and then 6 more on fruit, so only a year old when bottled. I've had that bad AWA taste in young lambic before.

 

[matedog]

The one and only bottle I bought was an overly acidic mess. Wish I liked it as much as you did, because it's still sitting around on the shelves here.

Weird. I had a "meh" experience having it in Belgium and then a pretty positive experience here. To be fair, in Belgium, I was drowning in LPK, so that may have skewed my palate.

 

[coldstorage]

Yeah I had a good bottle early last year so when it reappeared last month I grabbed 3 more to cellar. Don't know the dates since I'm living that baller offsite wine storage lifestyle but I'll make sure to check. At $8 a bottle I won't be traumatized if they aren't great I guess.

 

[wyatt1]

Lambic question. Is lambic "proofed down" with water like spirits are or does it go straight from the barrel to blending?

 

[JCastle1]

Lambic question. Is lambic "proofed down" with water like spirits are or does it go straight from the barrel to blending?

Not sure but highly doubt it's proofed down. I don't think their lacto/pedio strains are very alcohol tolerant (not sure about this, I can find out tomorrow) so I don't think the beer would reach a higher gravity that would make diluting necessary. Also adding water before bottling would create risk of oxidation in the final product.

 

[stupac2]

Also adding water before bottling would create risk of oxidation in the final product.

Why? They're already blending various barrels together, throwing in some water wouldn't materially affect the process.

I highly doubt they add water after fermentation, but that's not why.

 

[Beerontwowheels]

Not sure but highly doubt it's proofed down. I don't think their lacto/pedio strains are very alcohol tolerant (not sure about this, I can find out tomorrow) so I don't think the beer would reach a higher gravity that would make diluting necessary. Also adding water before bottling would create risk of oxidation in the final product.

Wrong!

Lambic question. Is lambic "proofed down" with water like spirits are or does it go straight from the barrel to blending?

Proofing down lambic is how the first Berliner weisse was created.

 

[JCastle1]

Why? They're already blending various barrels together, throwing in some water wouldn't materially affect the process.

I highly doubt they add water after fermentation, but that's not why.

Regular tap water has some dissolved oxygen, they would have to deoxygenate the water before blending. It's not the same as blending various barrels together.

Wrong!

Great insight, got more details? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more, I was just making an educated guess.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Lambic question. Is lambic "proofed down" with water like spirits are or does it go straight from the barrel to blending?

No, not proofed down as you're imaging it, but the average of the beers in the blend could serve to bring something up in down in quantity.

 

[Beerontwowheels]

Regular tap water has some dissolved oxygen, they would have to deoxygenate the water before blending. It's not the same as blending various barrels together.


Great insight, got more details? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more, I was just making an educated guess.

I'm clearly just bored on the internet, hence my ****** Berliner joke. Water (@68°) has approximately 9ppm dissolved oxygen, so if one were to dilute their finished beer, they would be wise to do whatever they can to remove as much oxygen before blending (boil it, spray it in a vacuum chamber, etc.). Heating it up and spraying into a vacuum chamber can bring the dissolved oxygen down to 50ppb.

From my reading, the only breweries who dilute with water are macro lager breweries.

 

[matedog]

Regular tap water has some dissolved oxygen, they would have to deoxygenate the water before blending. It's not the same as blending various barrels together.


Great insight, got more details? I'm genuinely interested in hearing more, I was just making an educated guess.

My chemistry background is minimal at best, so this might be a very dumb question, but how can you deoxyginate water? Doesn't that just make it hydrogen?

 

[JCastle1]

I'm clearly just bored on the internet, hence my ****** Berliner joke. Water (@68°) has approximately 9ppm dissolved oxygen, so if one were to dilute their finished beer, they would be wise to do whatever they can to remove as much oxygen before blending (boil it, spray it in a vacuum chamber, etc.). Heating it up and spraying into a vacuum chamber can bring the dissolved oxygen down to 50ppb.

From my reading, the only breweries who dilute with water are macro lager breweries.

Yep, macro lagers are the only ones as far as I know, but they have lots and lots of $$$ invested in deoxygenating equipment.

 

[Saind]

My chemistry background is minimal at best, so this might be a very dumb question, but how can you deoxyginate water? Doesn't that just make it hydrogen?

Heat that **** up and spray it into a vacuum chamber.

Knew that all by myself, no help. Really.

 

[stupac2]

Regular tap water has some dissolved oxygen, they would have to deoxygenate the water before blending. It's not the same as blending various barrels together.

And barrels are porous and allow oxygen through them, so, again, why would that matter?

In general I think people have kind of weird beliefs about oxygen and oxidation. Especially with lambic where you have active aerobic microbes, why would admitting oxygen lead to oxidation? It seems like you'd be far more worried about it leading to acetic acid production, but that apparently doesn't happen most of the time.

 

[JCastle1]

And barrels are porous and allow oxygen through them, so, again, why would that matter?

Just speculation again but the amount of oxygen introduced via the barrel is likely minimal. The threshold to create noticeable oxidation flavors in beer is pretty low, much lower than the 9ppm that are in tap water.

Now I'm really curious about barrels, gonna check if the ASBC has any journals on oxygen pickup.

 

[deckardjk]

<edit> nevermind... I forgot Tilquin uses meerts... </edit>

From a homebrewing (not fully scientific) perspective - yeast will utilize the oxygen in your wort. So you oxygenate prior to fermentation.

Oxygen shouldn't be introduced to your final product so you can avoid oxidation. Introducing oxygen to brett specifically can also increase acetic acid production. So if water with some level of dissolved oxygen is added I'd assume those would be the only 2 outcomes in lambic. Maybe it isn't detectable or is even a positive trait.

I also wonder what distilleries use when cutting their barrel proof...

 

[Jspriest]

From my reading, the only breweries who dilute with water are macro lager breweries.

Some larger craft breweries (or, at least one, and rumored others) do high-gravity brewing and dilute with de-aerated water in the cellar/brite tank as well.

 

[stupac2]

Just speculation again but the amount of oxygen introduced via the barrel is likely minimal. The threshold to create noticeable oxidation flavors in beer is pretty low, much lower than the 9ppm that are in tap water.

Now I'm really curious about barrels, gonna check if the ASBC has any journals on oxygen pickup.

But at the same time certainly flavors that you want in aging beer (though maybe not lambic) aren't happening unless oxygen is present. Plus corks and caps let in something like a mL of O2 per year (way over a PPM). I think you're overselling how bad O2 is for beer aging. Though it depends on the beer, for Bud Lite sure it's really bad, but for most things we'd care about it doesn't really matter, and I'd be really surprised if lambic makers cared enough to avoid dilution for this reason.

 

[Jspriest]

What is added to Tilquin draft? I'm assuming it is water and not super weak lambic so I'm curious if he treats his water. Maybe he dilutes it prior to going in the barrel?

From a homebrewing (not fully scientific) perspective - yeast will utilize the oxygen in your wort. So you oxygenate prior to fermentation.

Oxygen shouldn't be introduced to your final product so you can avoid oxidation. Introducing oxygen to brett specifically can also increase acetic acid production. So if water with some level of dissolved oxygen is added I'd assume those would be the only 2 outcomes in lambic. Maybe it isn't detectable or is even a positive trait.

I also wonder what distilleries use when cutting their barrel proof...

It's Boon/Tilquin Meerts; it is in fact super weak lambic, not water.

EDIT: Lots of good info at http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/search?q=meerts

also this quote from Pierre, from somewhere on the internet at some point:
"The particularity of this Meerts, is that it can be drunk very jong (3-4 weeks), and was a sort of pour-man’s drank to have during field work."

 

[deckardjk]

It's Boon/Tilquin Meerts; it is in fact super weak lambic, not water.

Just corrected myself

 

[deckardjk]

Now that I think about it... is there a reason why meerts is used rather than just water dilution?

I guess since it was traditionally the second runnings perhaps it was just a way to collect all of the sugars from the grain and utilize them.

 

[wyatt1]

Next question. What explains why some boon mono releases are +8% alcohol, where 3F and Cantillon releases are 7-5%. Does boon brew a higher entry proof?

 

[JCastle1]

But at the same time certainly flavors that you want in aging beer (though maybe not lambic) aren't happening unless oxygen is present. Plus corks and caps let in something like a mL of O2 per year (way over a PPM). I think you're overselling how bad O2 is for beer aging. Though it depends on the beer, for Bud Lite sure it's really bad, but for most things we'd care about it doesn't really matter, and I'd be really surprised if lambic makers cared enough to avoid dilution for this reason.

Never heard about that mL of O2 per year thing but that sounds like a lot. I believe the industry standard for DO at packaging is under 300ppb for most styles.

As for overselling how bad O2 is that may be the case with lambic, I'm not sure. It would be interesting to do a study on the bugs and the oxygen intake in the barrel but that would go way more in depth than a beer forum discussion. I will say though, I've done some sensory analysis with some lagers and pale ales that were oxygenated (barely above the threshold) on purpose and the flavor change was very noticeable. On the other hand, the majority of us could not tell the difference between several macro lagers with distilled and deoxygenated water added.

 

[PSUMike]

Wish this would sit on shelves forever.

Come to PA. It does. I can go to several stores and buy loads of it. Just had one about 2 months ago. A little too sour for me but still quite good.

 

[matedog]

Plus corks and caps let in something like a mL of O2 per year (way over a PPM).

Side note, I got into a debate with my stepdad over christmas. He was arguing that wine corks don't let in any oxygen (or at least they shouldn't) and the tired "let it on its side to keep the cork wet" adage I've heard a lot. My understanding from reading on these boards is more in line with what you said. Essentially oxidation is inevitable over time and that you are essentially hoping for "good" (depending on your tastes), controlled oxidation. Is that correct?

 

[deckardjk]

Never heard about that mL of O2 per year thing but that sounds like a lot. I believe the industry standard for DO at packaging is under 300ppb for most styles.

As for overselling how bad O2 is that may be the case with lambic, I'm not sure. It would be interesting to do a study on the bugs and the oxygen intake in the barrel but that would go way more in depth than a beer forum discussion. I will say though, I've done some sensory analysis with some lagers and pale ales that were oxygenated (barely above the threshold) on purpose and the flavor change was very noticeable. On the other hand, the majority of us could not tell the difference between several macro lagers with distilled and deoxygenated water added.

Not a study... and not lambic... but levifunk waxed his early small barrels to avoid some oxygen ingress.

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2012/02/paraffin-waxing-barrel.html