Lambic Discussion Thread

[jaeselector]

Enteric bacteria also contribute wanted flavors we think of when drinking lambic.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Understand if you aren’t willing to divulge but extremely curious of lambic producers that may do this.

Lactic acid to 4.5 pH post boil/precoolship stops enteric phases from happening. (Probably stalling various other bacteria/yeast as well). This can help turnaround time because of nutrient depletion that occurs during this time, bugs like E. coli will use it before wild sac/brett/pedio get to it. These bugs also create undesirable off-flavors that can take extensive time to clean up. Dropping pH can prevent all this and drastically increase turnaround. May also encourage further attentuation if nutrients are being taken up by wild sac/brett. Interesting stuff, I know De Garde will sometimes use this for quicker spontanous (Bu series) but wouldn’t have thought of it in traditional lambic.

This seems like a good time for duketheredeemer to chime in.

 

[Maakun]

wouldn’t have thought of it in traditional lambic.

Exactly why some claim they're more traditional than others.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

It's an interesting discussion and it makes me wonder what being the most traditional would even mean. What counts as tradition, when do traditions matter?

One could make a compelling argument that Cantillon is one of the least traditional lambic producers. In addition to making lambics with fruits that are foreign to Belgium they experiment with aging in amphorae and intentionally flavoring lambic with fresh wine/spirit barrels (think: Vin Jaune, 50N). Then there's beer like Iris, Abbaye de Cureghem, LHD and BLIPA, which are hard to defend as traditional products. Oh, and the kegged lambic thing. They've definitely run afowl of the Gooik contingent for that bit.

With the effects of global climate change the number of days sufficient for traditional lambic brewing in the Zennevallei is shrinking each year and if course is not corrected the number of brew days will eventually shrink to zero. In that scenario do you suppose that the future heirs of Cantillon are going to shutter rather than push against tradition, or will they instead take prescriptive measures to continue making lambic?

Something worth considering: there was a time when gueuze was a novelty and, if the discourse was as contentious then as it is today, you can bet there were people deriding it as inauthentic and not traditional.

 

[sherm10161]

Holy crap, this is fantastic at the moment. I remember it begin very good out of the gate, but it has evolved *very* nicely.

Carbonation is so soft, tons of oak and citrus. The Brunello is there, but not over-powering, just enough. This really is fantastic.

 

[The Red Viper]

Holy crap, this is fantastic at the moment. I remember it begin very good out of the gate, but it has evolved *very* nicely.

Carbonation is so soft, tons of oak and citrus. The Brunello is there, but not over-powering, just enough. This really is fantastic.

Agreed and very much looking forward to 137...

 

[yeahnatenelson]

Agreed and very much looking forward to 137...

And Foeder 21. Four-year monoblend!

 

[SeaWatchman]

Have any of you guys donated to the Bottle Conditioned campaign? I’m not affiliated with the film, but have been talking to the filmmaker since the fall and am really excited to see this getting close to being fully funded. They’ve done almost all of the funding themselves so far, and the clips that have been posted look amazing. Most importantly though, is that they’ve got the support of the brewers and blenders which says a lot. There are a few raffles floating around right now in social media land for those who decide to donate as well.

 

[duketheredeemer]

This seems like a good time for duketheredeemer to chime in.

That sounds about right to me. The enteric bacteria are pretty sensitive to low pH, so we only really see them early in the fermentation of lambic, before the pH falls too far (and the ABV climbs too high) for them to propagate.

Some of the flavors contributed by the enteric bacteria (often described as "mousey" flavors) can be desirable flavors used as a small component of the overall flavor of lambic, so avoiding them will definitely change the flavor of the final product a bit. Also leaving more simple carbohydrates (and other nutrients) for the later-stage bugs to eat should generally lead to higher attenuation as well as changes in flavor profile due to their increased activity.

It would probably boil down to how much change in flavor the brewer is willing to tolerate and what their end goals are. I could also see a lambic brewer making both pre-acidified and non-pre-acidified beer to take advantage of both in the final blend, though I don't know if anyone does this.

 

[Mug Costanza]

I could also see a lambic brewer making both pre-acidified and non-pre-acidified beer to take advantage of both in the final blend, though I don't know if anyone does this.

This would be a great way to encourage variability in barrels, more of a blend “library”.

Great article on lambic biology.

http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/2019/01/spontaneous-fermentation-and-biogenic.html?m=1

 

[duketheredeemer]

Great article on lambic biology.

http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/2019/01/spontaneous-fermentation-and-biogenic.html?m=1

Oooh yeah. This is good stuff:

The ability of pre-acidification to limit BA levels in the initial production phase is because pre-acidification can limit and/or shorten the period in which enterobacteria are active in the wort. Both the Gasarasi et al. (2003) and De Roos et al. (2018) studies highlight the potential of wort pre-acidification to limit BA production in lambic. Gasarasi et al. (2003) note that pH > 5 and cooling to T < 15° C may result in elevated BA levels, and they say that adding 2000 mg/L lactic acid to wort reduces BAs but does not completely prevent BA production. A study on industrial lambic production where the wort was acidified to pH = 4 with lactic acid before fermentation also demonstrated that pre-acidification can eliminate the enterobacteria phase of fermentation (Spitaels et al., 2015).

 

[SeaWatchman]

This would be a great way to encourage variability in barrels, more of a blend “library”.

Great article on lambic biology.

http://www.horscategoriebrewing.com/2019/01/spontaneous-fermentation-and-biogenic.html?m=1

Hey I know that guy!

 

[CSO]

This is lovely. Nose promises grand things, but the taste is much more subdued/refined. Soft, lots of oak, green apple skins and a touch lemon rind. Funky cobwebs give a sly wink.

 

[stakem1]

Bought this a little while back when I needed to top off a box of Fantomes on etre. I picked this because I was hoping it would be still. Despite having carbonation, it was awesome. Not a ton of depth but it hit me in all the right places - tart, citrusy, oaked and leathery. Most importantly, I could straight up chug this bottle without inducing heartburn. If the price point on this was a little cheaper, id buy cases.

 

[iong516]

View attachment 8640

Bought this a little while back when I needed to top off a box of Fantomes on etre. I picked this because I was hoping it would be still. Despite having carbonation, it was awesome. Not a ton of depth but it hit me in all the right places - tart, citrusy, oaked and leathery. Most importantly, I could straight up chug this bottle without inducing heartburn. If the price point on this was a little cheaper, id buy cases.

Any indication of date on the label? I enjoyed a "2012" a year or so ago, and I'm having a "2003" tomorrow. Will report back.

 

[Digita7693]

Any indication of date on the label? I enjoyed a "2012" a year or so ago, and I'm having a "2003" tomorrow. Will report back.

Love the quotations for authenticity

 

[Gaseous Clay]

Any indication of date on the label? I enjoyed a "2012" a year or so ago, and I'm having a "2003" tomorrow. Will report back.

Looks like one of the newer bottles with the date stamped on the crown. I believe it says 2018, but its a bit hard to read.

 

[stakem1]

Any indication of date on the label? I enjoyed a "2012" a year or so ago, and I'm having a "2003" tomorrow. Will report back.

Looks like one of the newer bottles with the date stamped on the crown. I believe it says 2019, but its a bit hard to read.

Its a 2018 cage and that pretty much lines up with when I bought it.

I have several older bottles tucked away that im probably going to drink within the next 2 years as they are coming up on being ~15 years old. I first bought a couple “2003’s” circa 05? and bought a case of 09 geuze 375’s in 09 before the whole lol everything is 2009 thing so i know they are at least that old.

 

[Gaseous Clay]

You caught me before my cheeky edit

 

[iong516]

case of 09 geuze 375’s

 

[buzzword]

2016 cork, proper glassware

 

[gueuzelife]

2016 cork, proper glassware

View attachment 8690

Proper pour too.

Serious question: why do people pour only half the bottle or portions of the bottle at a time?

 

[stupac2]

Proper pour too.

Serious question: why do people pour only half the bottle or portions of the bottle at a time?

Well, if you're drinking solo you don't have much choice, unless you want to Intihar a nice lambic.

 

[capnmike]

Well, if you're drinking solo you don't have much choice, unless you want to Intihar a nice lambic.

This is me, usually.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Proper pour too.

Serious question: why do people pour only half the bottle or portions of the bottle at a time?

If I’m solo I never pour a half glass. That’s just a waste of half a glass worth of space.

 

[iong516]

Proper pour too.

Serious question: why do people pour only half the bottle or portions of the bottle at a time?

I'll pour the whole bottle into 3 glasses to agitate dregs less and not need a basket.

A huge related pet peeve of mine is taking a vintage lambic to a share where people are too casual with pouring, then righting the bottle, pass, pour, right the bottle... ensuring the last few people get the cloudiest pours they can. Or needing to pick up and inspect the bottle to check out the date and shake things up.

 

[yeahnatenelson]

I'll pour the whole bottle into 3 glasses to agitate dregs less and not need a basket.

A huge related pet peeve of mine is taking a vintage lambic to a share where people are too casual with pouring, then righting the bottle, pass, pour, right the bottle... ensuring the last few people get the cloudiest pours they can. Or needing to pick up and inspect the bottle to check out the date and shake things up.

Consider a decanter.

 

[buzzword]

Proper pour too.

Serious question: why do people pour only half the bottle or portions of the bottle at a time?

you act like i didn’t already drink 1/3 of the glass before getting around to taking a picture, and like i didn’t solo the remainder of the bottle while watching ep 5 of chernobyl and becoming even more disappointed in humanity.

not all of us give a **** about baskets and presentation.

fwiw, it probably needed another 3-4 years to hit my own personal st lam sweet spot but who cares.

 

[buzzword]

Well, if you're drinking solo you don't have much choice, unless you want to Intihar a nice lambic.

...which i have also done bc who cares. it’s for drinking - if people want pomp and circumstance they should probably attend more graduations.

 

[iong516]

Consider a decanter.

An excellent suggestion.