Lambic Discussion Thread

[capnmike]

You guys got me too...

 

[brentsdodgers]

Hope to experience that some day... had hopes for this bottle, but no bubbles even though it was quite enjoyable.


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Man I have a '08 I was thinking of opening for my birthday tomorrow having never had one with carb. I guess not yet

 

[tosh1]

Dishes always need washing

 

[NeedsMoreDog]

Yeah I'll take this for $8

 

[Tlo4sho]

Happy to C+S+S(shipper) for a few folks if desired. OG750 $29. AG750 $34. OK375 $18.99(~).

 

[SeaWatchman]

Really wish I hadn’t already blown my beer budget for the next three months back in June

 

[Gaseous Clay]

Really wish I hadn’t already blown my beer budget for the next three months back in June

I say this every time I buy more beer.

 

[bostonvert]

But lambic is really cheap?






Sorry I just had to post that

 

[tosh1]

Bought some of two blends today. 14 and 55. Drinking the 14 tonight.

No stickers, even if I am doing dishes. Maybe someone from the lambic police won’t report this post, or quote a different post of mine with a snide comment?

Thoughts and prayers.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Bought some of two blends today. 14 and 55. Drinking the 14 tonight.

No stickers, even if I am doing dishes. Maybe someone from the lambic police won’t report this post, or quote a different post of mine with a snide comment?

Thoughts and prayers.

That said: it may be time for some self reflection. Perhaps, tosh, you could also benefit from doing the same for others that you’d like the community to do for you. It may finally be time to move on from your now years old issues with Don, with Seawatchman, etc. No “lists of names,” no sworn enemies. Just taking the site as seriously as it should be taken: not seriously at all.

I mean it. It’s a silly beer website we use to take a break from real life, and to ******** with friends. It should never have been, and never should be taken more seriously than that. By anyone.

 

[iong516]

I like blend 14 and bought more yesterday. A&G 54 was 'kinda weird' but I could see it aging into something very musty, and I don't plan on drinking another for a long while. Kriekenlambic expressed itself as fruit juicy and kinda boring previously, but I absolutely loved the bottle I had this weekend. Nice cherry pits and spice complimented the still big cherry prominence.

This concludes updates in 3F exploration from my gf's work party.

 

[nathanmiller]

Happy to C+S+S(shipper) for a few folks if desired. OG750 $29. AG750 $34. OK375 $18.99(~).

Are the OKs the ones with that cute bee on them? I want one of those.

 

[stupac2]

Are the OKs the ones with that cute bee on them? I want one of those.

I think that's the A&G with lavender honey.

 

[iong516]

I think that's the A&G with lavender honey.

And a Kriek 750 that I'm not sure was available stateside, and people have been complaining about low carb and high acidity. I'm going to leave mine for some years and see how's it drinking whenever I decide to get curious.

 

[nathanmiller]

Yeah there's a kriek with honey. That's what I want. I don't care about carb.

 

[2plums4one]

And a Kriek 750 that I'm not sure was available stateside, and people have been complaining about low carb and high acidity. I'm going to leave mine for some years and see how's it drinking whenever I decide to get curious.

Anyone have experience with a lambic getting less acidic over time? Just curious

 

[iong516]

Anyone have experience with a lambic getting less acidic over time? Just curious

I may end up just trading it at some point. In any case I'm not thrilled about opening it anytime soon and have other things I want to get to sooner. If I still have it in 4-5 years and it's still sour I don't see any harm done.

 

[stupac2]

Anyone have experience with a lambic getting less acidic over time? Just curious

I've wondered about this too. duketheredeemer, any ideas about a biological or chemical process that could metabolize/neutralize acidity? I always thought that there essentially wasn't anything in a closed system like a bottle of beer, but that's far outside my wheelhouse. I do have a friend who insists that some bottles of Rare Barrel have been getting less sour, but I'm hesitant to trust perceptions over time.

 

[JCastle1]

Anyone have experience with a lambic getting less acidic over time? Just curious

It can happen during fermentation, I assume it can also happen after bottling.

Look at the pH curve:

 

[iong516]

I wonder about oxy playing a role. I've had a few fruited lambic in the 8-12 year old range that seem significantly less sour than new ones, and some fruited stuff in the 3-8 year old range seeming more sour, then bottles that stray from those generalizations. Still 'researching'...

 

[stupac2]

It can happen during fermentation, I assume it can also happen after bottling.

Look at the pH curve:

Wasn't this study done with lambic barrels? That's a pretty different system than a finished product in the bottle.

 

[wuntrikpony]

Aw ****...someone about to get stupac'd

 

[JCastle1]

Wasn't this study done with lambic barrels? That's a pretty different system than a finished product in the bottle.

It can happen during fermentation, I assume it can also happen after bottling.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[duketheredeemer]

There's a few ways pH can change. Yeast/bacteria can excrete buffers, or metabolize some organic acids. Esterification is also a good acid sink that we know does take place during extended aging, though that's largely dependent on the makeup of the beer and the yeast/bacteria. I believe autolysis can spill out the esterification enzymes yeast usually keep within themselves and can cause pH changes through the esterification of acids and alcohols after extended aging periods in the bottle, though like most esterifications, this process can go either direction.

As to what's actually happening or if these pH changes are taste-able, I'm not sure. It might just be batch variation, or changes in how we remember a beer, or how we experienced it both different times. I know if I've been drinking a lot of sour beer in an evening, I taste the later sour beers as less sour. Adding sweetness can reduce the perception of sourness as well. Perception is a complex thing and could also be responsible for a change in the percieved sourness even if the pH remained unchanged.

 

[MooseLang]

Storing bottles on their sides as opposed to upright is also known to either make the beer more sour, less sour, or equally sour over time.

 

[Tlo4sho]

Are the OKs the ones with that cute bee on them? I want one of those.

Na, wishful thinking though!

 

[stupac2]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I was mostly asking about if that was indeed where that figure came from.

There's a few ways pH can change. Yeast/bacteria can excrete buffers, or metabolize some organic acids. Esterification is also a good acid sink that we know does take place during extended aging, though that's largely dependent on the makeup of the beer and the yeast/bacteria. I believe autolysis can spill out the esterification enzymes yeast usually keep within themselves and can cause pH changes through the esterification of acids and alcohols after extended aging periods in the bottle, though like most esterifications, this process can go either direction.

How hard would it be to do a calculation to estimate the amount of metabolic activity or autolysis necessary to have a perceptible effect on the taste? If it's the sort of thing you could estimate then you could get an idea of whether or not it's plausible to expect some change.

As to what's actually happening or if these pH changes are taste-able, I'm not sure. It might just be batch variation, or changes in how we remember a beer, or how we experienced it both different times. I know if I've been drinking a lot of sour beer in an evening, I taste the later sour beers as less sour. Adding sweetness can reduce the perception of sourness as well. Perception is a complex thing and could also be responsible for a change in the percieved sourness even if the pH remained unchanged.

And of course there's this too. I'm curious more about whether pH can really change enough to be noticed, I very much believe that someone could think it's happened regardless of whether it really has.

 

[duketheredeemer]

How hard would it be to do a calculation to estimate the amount of metabolic activity or autolysis necessary to have a perceptible effect on the taste? If it's the sort of thing you could estimate then you could get an idea of whether or not it's plausible to expect some change.

I dunno. I imagine pretty hard, because there are a ton of different things that can be changed in many different ways. If you're looking at the change in one particular thing (pH, or perhaps even more specifically, the concentration of lactic acid or something) on a known substrate, with a known yeast under known conditions, then most likely you could build that. Some parameters may be really general and insensitive to slight changes (like pH may always go up by about X after Y time, for pretty much any strain of yeast in any wort), but there may be some that aren't. Off the top of my head, I really dunno.

Back when I was doing analytical work for the UW bio department, we'd take a single strain of algae and look for fatty acid composition changes while we changed just one variable. So we'd do a whole series of different pHs, salinities, nitrate concentrations, light/dark cycle changes, temperatures, etc. and try to figure out which knobs we could turn to re-compose their fat content. Some things had little to no effect, while others had large effects and which variables were effective varied from alga to alga. One alga might be real sensitive to salinity changes, and increasing it slightly might cause it to get stressed and produce more storage lipids. Another might not care at all. Some variables were more universal, though. Starving the algae of nitrogen very often (though not without exception) increased the lipid content. And this was all for axenic cultures.

In essence, what I'm saying is that there may be some general rules about how this stuff will evolve with time and other parameters, but there are a ton of parameters to explore and I can't say for sure which parameters will matter and how. I do suspect that since we see the same basic ecological progression occur in pretty much any spontaneous fermentation that some fairly general rules might be established, though probably more qualitatively than quantitatively.

Here's just about the best review article on this I've seen, though it's been a while since I read through it.

And of course there's this too. I'm curious more about whether pH can really change enough to be noticed, I very much believe that someone could think it's happened regardless of whether it really has.

Yeah, that's definitely a much easier question to answer. Unfortunately most of the evidence I've seen for changing pH with aging has been anecdotal sensory reports.

EDIT: I haven't searched for this yet, but Milk the Funk might have some more formal pH measurements of their beers as they age. Not quite the formal PR literature, but it'd be a hell of a lot better than someone saying "I feel like this beer tastes less sour than the last time I had it four years ago" is.

 

[BadJustin]

Sooooo. Green lambic. Lulz.

 

[stakem1]

Sooooo. Green lambic. Lulz.

Bold move to pick Blabs as your beer of choice to try and make with oil paints and koolaid at home.

That poor bastard got had.

Though, im sure whatever liquid was concocted in that bottle was better than the phenolic hair spray that is blabaer