Lambic Discussion Thread

[wuntrikpony]

I think they are saying Jester King charges to much.

tosh

 

[IndianaJones]

tosh

Don't get the point of one beer producer doing their thing calling another beer producer doing their thing "beyond reproach" on Facebook. Seems petty to me

 

[Lamnic]

Don't get the point of one beer producer doing their thing calling another beer producer doing their thing "beyond reproach" on Facebook. Seems petty to me

I get it. They charge way too much money. I think it's crap. Allagash 375s (recent Red release) for $17 at the source? You kidding me?? And Resurgam is the simplest of recipes and they're essentially charging $30 for a 750 size. I understand supply/demand, and if people are buying it they can charge it, but it still sucks when an established brewery that has definitely paid for all their equipment by now is still charging that much. Meanwhile De Cam has to buy wort and Karel still charges 16-22 Euro for big bottles.
In b4 "if you think it's too much then don't buy it". I don't buy it. And I complain about it because I want to buy it.

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

degardebrewing

Don't get the point of one beer producer doing their thing calling another beer producer doing their thing "beyond reproach" on Facebook. Seems petty to me

He's long been critical of the markups on sour beer and critical of arguments justifying them as necessary rather than a choice--but it's their prerogative to make that choice. Brewers should just be honest that they believe their products deserve the markup for quality--not some made up term to appropriate a historical beer style.

It's absolutely right that the whole methode gueuze/lambic/traditionelle is just methode markup for spontaneous beer.

 

[IndianaJones]

I get it. They charge way too much money. I think it's crap. Allagash 375s (recent Red release) for $17 at the source? You kidding me?? And Resurgam is the simplest of recipes and they're essentially charging $30 for a 750 size. I understand supply/demand, and if people are buying it they can charge it, but it still sucks when an established brewery that has definitely paid for all their equipment by now is still charging that much. Meanwhile De Cam has to buy wort and Karel still charges 16-22 Euro for big bottles.
In b4 "if you think it's too much then don't buy it". I don't buy it. And I complain about it because I want to buy it.

I'm not gonna shoot back some snark about don't like it don't buy it. I'm not here to defend anyone, I was just saying, for me, Facebook comments seem a petty way to open up about your professional feelings

 

[BadJustin]

I'm not gonna shoot back some snark about don't like it don't buy it. I'm not here to defend anyone, I was just saying, for me, Facebook comments seem a petty way to open up about your professional feelings

Are you new to Facebook? ****, that's all it is man. I do agree though.

 

[matedog]

I get it. They charge way too much money. I think it's crap. Allagash 375s (recent Red release) for $17 at the source? You kidding me?? And Resurgam is the simplest of recipes and they're essentially charging $30 for a 750 size. I understand supply/demand, and if people are buying it they can charge it, but it still sucks when an established brewery that has definitely paid for all their equipment by now is still charging that much. Meanwhile De Cam has to buy wort and Karel still charges 16-22 Euro for big bottles.
In b4 "if you think it's too much then don't buy it". I don't buy it. And I complain about it because I want to buy it.

Or Beatification at $20/375. I don't think they even age it beyond 2 years (my general understanding that any time you age something, that adds a lot of cost, particularly the longer you age it). It's still baffling to me how cheap De Garde is relative to its non-spontaneous sort of neighbor Cascade. I can't imagine Cascade is making a fortune, but I don't think De Garde is scraping by either. This aspect is very much a mystery to me. I know real lambic is always cheaper as well, but I usually chalked that up to "It's Europe, they don't view lambic/craft the same way as Americans, monetarily speaking."

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

Meanwhile De Cam has to buy wort and Karel still charges 16-22 Euro for big bottles.

De Cam and other lambic producers are not trying to build out new facilities and build a stock of products, while not having beer old enough to sell yet. I've heard second hand on how much money in wort JK has in holding and it's a substantial amount. I bet they have more in holding than De Garde has in assets. There is more that goes into pricing than straight wort production cost + warehousing cost + packaging cost + 30% markup = product cost.

 

[IndianaJones]

degardebrewing


He's long been critical of the markups on sour beer and critical of arguments justifying them as necessary rather than a choice--but it's their prerogative to make that choice. Brewers should just be honest that they believe their products deserve the markup for quality--not some made up term to appropriate a historical beer style.

It's absolutely right that the whole methode gueuze/lambic/traditionelle is just methode markup for spontaneous beer.

not begrudging Trevor's comment or feelings on the subject, I agree it's expensive too. Just a comment on the vehicle of such criticism

 

[Lamnic]

De Cam and other lambic producers are not trying to build out new facilities and build a stock of products, while not having beer old enough to sell yet. I've heard second hand on how much money in wort JK has in holding and it's a substantial amount. I bet they have more in holding than De Garde has in assets. There is more that goes into pricing than straight wort production cost + warehousing cost + packaging cost + 30% markup = product cost.

I totally understand that. My assumption with the De Garde pricing is that he set the business up to save money in a lot of ways. Local less expensive fruit, lower shipping costs for ingredients, lower wages (I assume Tillamook workers need less pay for a similar standard of living), and a temperate climate all amount to spending less $$$. But honestly they charge about half for similar beers to the other guys.

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

not begrudging Trevor's comment or feelings on the subject, I agree it's expensive too. Just a comment on the vehicle of such criticism

I'd agree if he was proactively naming names and shitting on people but he's just responding to other people commenting about his commentary, which many other breweries often do (e.g. JK).

 

[IndianaJones]

I'd agree if he was proactively naming names and shitting on people but he's just responding to other people commenting about his commentary, which many other breweries often do (e.g. JK).

Fair enough, carry on

 

[DCLA]

A great, collective sigh of relief has been exhaled by the lambic community - that was a close one!

Is there a giveaway for whoever reads every word?

 

[Compton25]

Is there a giveaway for whoever reads every word?

Yes, an advanced copy of their upcoming Choose Your Own Adventure book "Jester King and the Missing Trademark".

 

[stupac2]

It's absolutely right that the whole methode gueuze/lambic/traditionelle is just methode markup for spontaneous beer.

Uh, is it though? Are JK's Methode series more expensive than their other things, like Atrial? I think that's something in the $15-20 range for a 375 is just the going price for this **** now, and De Garde is essentially the only one fighting it. Even SARA has increased prices recently. If De Garde wants to leave money on the table for no reason than because they think it's right then that's their call, but getting all huffy when others don't is silly.

As for motives, I think JK is doing this work in order to meaningfully differentiate products that are actually making a good faith effort to replicate the traditional lambic production methods from those that are just thoughtlessly throwing around the word "lambic" for any sour beer. I don't see any problem with that, especially because the lambic producers have somehow fallen completely flat on their face when it comes to defending their terms, (which is baffling to me given how aggressively protective the EU is about that stuff, though I assume there's some historical reason for this). Is that appropriation? I guess so, but then so is basically the entire American craft beer scene outside of adjunct lagers and ******** pastry stouts and milkshake IPAs. I don't think it's absurd to want to emulate something you appreciate. It's not like the HORAL producers are even attempting to meet demand in the US, or that they could if they wanted to. No one ******* that Sierra Nevada makes an Oktoberfest beer, so I don't get why we'd be up in arms that JK and others want to try their hand at making a gueuze. Especially if they're not even going to use any part of the name, which seems over-the-top deferential to me.

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

Uh, is it though? Are JK's Methode series more expensive than their other things, like Atrial? I think that's something in the $15-20 range for a 375 is just the going price for this **** now, and De Garde is essentially the only one fighting it. Even SARA has increased prices recently. If De Garde wants to leave money on the table for no reason than because they think it's right then that's their call, but getting all huffy when others don't is silly.

Most sour beer is ridiculously overpriced but methode markup is just a tool specific to spontaneous beer. I'd feel the same way if it was methode add so much fruit to your sour beer it's basically a bottle of arbor mist, but that's not the subject.

As for motives, I think JK is doing this work in order to meaningfully differentiate products that are actually making a good faith effort to replicate the traditional lambic production methods from those that are just thoughtlessly throwing around the word "lambic" for any sour beer. I don't see any problem with that, especially because the lambic producers have somehow fallen completely flat on their face when it comes to defending their terms, (which is baffling to me given how aggressively protective the EU is about that stuff, though I assume there's some historical reason for this). Is that appropriation? I guess so, but then so is basically the entire American craft beer scene outside of adjunct lagers and ******** pastry stouts and milkshake IPAs. I don't think it's absurd to want to emulate something you appreciate. It's not like the HORAL producers are even attempting to meet demand in the US, or that they could if they wanted to. No one ******* that Sierra Nevada makes an Oktoberfest beer, so I don't get why we'd be up in arms that JK and others want to try their hand at making a gueuze. Especially if they're not even going to use any part of the name, which seems over-the-top deferential to me.

I don't mind the emulation or that people think "lambic" or "gueuze" shouldn't be used by non-Belgian brewers. However, that's not what the methode <whatever> nonsense does. Instead it's a way for a small number of American brewers to decide what the "real" process is to make lambic or lambic-inspired beer based on what they've decided to do, which is outright appropriation--not emulation. Then they are turning their appropriation into a weapon to decide who is and who isn't authentic based upon their own false authenticity. That faux authenticity then creates a justification for marking up beer.

 

[SeaWatchman]

So who's storing their bottles on their side vs upright? I heard that you need to keep the cork moist so it doesn't dry out.

 

[angry_lobster]

So who's storing their bottles on their side vs upright? I heard that you need to keep the cork moist so it doesn't dry out.

If you put lambic between two slices of bread, is it now a sandwich?

 

[BadJustin]

So who's storing their bottles on their side vs upright? I heard that you need to keep the cork moist so it doesn't dry out.

Layered, ya ******' n00b. vav explained it to us.

 

[jbeezification1]

I've had SPON blind and I thought it was gueze, it was easily the best American brewed representation of the style I've ever had. I feel like nobody is commenting on the quality of the product but the beers are really good.

 

[jrstar96]

I don't mind the emulation or that people think "lambic" or "gueuze" shouldn't be used by non-Belgian brewers. However, that's not what the methode <whatever> nonsense does. Instead it's a way for a small number of American brewers to decide what the "real" process is to make lambic or lambic-inspired beer based on what they've decided to do, which is outright appropriation--not emulation. Then they are turning their appropriation into a weapon to decide who is and who isn't authentic based upon their own false authenticity. That faux authenticity then creates a justification for marking up beer.

I would agree if they had some type of legal protection on the name and style (here in the US), but they don't. They have a voluntary label that can be used. Nothing is stopping any brewery from putting the name "lambic" or "lambic-inspired" or whatever they want on their beer and selling it. And they can make it any way they like. They just can't used the MT label and term unless they are following those guidelines. There are countless examples of similar situations such as "Made in the USA" label or the countless labels for cheese, beef, milk, or any other food or beverage. There are still other manufactures who make in the USA but don't use the label cause they don't want to be part of that group. It doesn't make their product less usa made because of a lack of label.

 

[BadJustin]

Now if Jester King or anyone else tries to create a situation like HORAL here, then I may be in agreement with you.

Isn't that exactly what they are doing though with the moniker of Tradionelle or whatever the **** it is?

 

[primebeer]

If you put lambic between two slices of bread, is it now a sandwich?

Well, without the bread, I think we would have to agree that it is soup, right?

 

[ac24]

I've had SPON blind and I thought it was gueze, it was easily the best American brewed representation of the style I've ever had. I feel like nobody is commenting on the quality of the product but the beers are really good.

While yes Spon is good I wouldn't say it is the best American representation of the style, I feel like Resurgam is. Its all opinion though.

 

[wuntrikpony]

well is it?

 

[jrstar96]

Isn't that exactly what they are doing though with the moniker of Tradionelle or whatever the **** it is?

sorry I deleted that part of the comment because I realized I spoke before actually looking up if HORAL maintains legal protections over the terms and process. And realized that I would most likely be wrong in that comment and it would be confusing. However after looking, they (HORAL) do have legal protection over the term, but maybe not the process? No one in the EU can use their terms without approval.

However, the point was that the other poster said that JK was trying to claim there is only one way to make lambic in the US, and it had to be this process. I don't think that is what they are trying to do at all, however I think that is what HORAL is trying to do in the EU. You and I can make a beer the same was as Boon and call it lambic if we want in the US. We could make a lager and call it lambic-lager if we really wanted to. We just can't use the label of MT unless we follow the process, similar to a Made in the USA label.

 

[lambandtunaphish]

well is it?

Missing the "beyond reproach" label.

 

[MikeG1]

well is it?

Non GMO or what?

 

[reverseapachemaster1]

well is it?

I only drink American gueueueueuze if it's risky to dolphins.

 

[RyanG1]

well is it?

Is it kosher?