Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

[AmandaK]

DARN YOU! Your Lambic beat out my Scottish for Best in Show at the DMC. lol. Congrats. Must have been a great beer to have done so well. Good luck at the 2013 DMC!

Matt K.

Matt, so sorry! Best of luck at the 2013 Drunk Monk, I'm going to have to go big in that one next year so I can have matching trophies. JK. JK.

 

[AmandaK]

I wanted to update this thread (and the front post) with tasting notes 2 years after I started brewing these.

As for my timetable: brewed the first November 2010, the second November 2011 and another in June 2012 - all to blend for a gueuze. Notes on the aging process and recent tastings.

2010 version

• Brewed 10 gallons 11/10
• Began ferment in 10 gallon plastic container
• Transferred to two 5 gallon glass carboys one month later
• Bottled one carboy 2/12 - results were great. Only criticism was that it needed to be older.
• Tasted second carboy 11/12
  • Aroma/flavor has shifted from a bright acidity to a more funky leather/sweaty aroma and flavor
  • Color has darkened significantly from aging, light brown or copper
  • Really, really getting amazing at this point

2011 version

• Brewed 5 gallons
• Began ferment in 5 gallon glass carboy
• Never transferred or disturbed
• Tasted carboy 11/12
  • Aroma was slightly tart - mostly lactic, no acetic
  • Flavor was lifeless, some amount of tart, some funk
  • Color is still very light, light amber, mostly clear
  • Body was very thin - same gravity reading as the others, but with no interesting flavors/prickly acidity to help the mouthfeel

2012 version

• Brewed June 2012 - 10 gallons
• Fermented exactly as the 2010 version, 10 gallon in plastic then split to 5 gallon carboys
• Tasted carboys 11/12
  • Extremely bright acidity, nice mix of lactic/acetic
  • Some background notes of funk
  • Still very light in color - straw colored & brilliant

Based on yesterday's tastings, I will probably be blending the 2010 and 2012 and a 60/40 ratio for my gueuze and will definitely leave the 2011 out of the gueuze. I may transfer the 2011 to another carboy and add some maltodextrin to see what happens. I hope to also bottle some of the remaining 2010 for another straight lambic.

All that being said, I would like to propose a theory on why the 2011 is so boring and lifeless. I think it is my 10 gallon plastic fermenter that holds the key - and it is the only variable changed in the three trials. I think a small amount of O2 is important to achieve a wonderful lambic. So from now on, I will only brew these if my 10 gallon plastic fermenter is available.

I'll keep updating as time marches on.

Cheers!

 

[Fullblownmonkeytilt]

So what do you think are some good ways to get O2 if you just ferment in SS and glass?

 

[AmandaK]

I'm no expert on the issue, but I know some others have used oak dowels with success for a small amount of O2 pickup in glass carboys.

 

[Fullblownmonkeytilt]

Yeah that's what I'm going to do or get a plastic fermenter. Do you have a link for the kind of fermenter you use? I also finally got some ECY bug country that I'll be using on something like this recipe.

Cheers

 

[AmandaK]

Vittles Vault

Drill a tiny hole in the top for an air lock with a grommet.

 

[Zippox]

I like how your dog food fermenting container makes award winning beer.

 

[Fullblownmonkeytilt]

Sweet thank you!

 

[Zippox]

I only have a 20 quart pot for boiling so I would most likely have to do two batches back to back and start them in different carboys, but I was wondering something. Would it work to use like 3 gallons of water and add all of the ingredients into that pot and add it to the vittles vault then top up to 10 gal (then later split them to two carboys)?

I have heard that for normal beer the IBU value would be different, but that shouldn't matter as we use aged hops for lambics. Other than that I haven't heard anything that would point at this not working. Any concerns?

 

[Serialk1llr]

I am brewing this this weekend probably, 10 gallon batch. Going into glass carboys for a couple years too bad it won't be ready sooner.

Amanda, did you all all your malt extracts at the beginning, then tossed your hops in for a full 60min boil?

 

[AmandaK]

I like how your dog food fermenting container makes award winning beer.

Ironic, isn't it?

It was actually a brewing 'hand-me-down' from another award winning brewer. He used to make barleywines in it. They were excellent.

 

[AmandaK]

For Zippox and Serial:

1) You could do that. It would be thick and hard to get the DME to dissolve, but it can be done. You would end up with a 1.180 boil. Also, extract adds volume, so be aware that adding 12# of DME to 3 gallons will push it north of 3 gallons total volume.

2) I also added all my extracts at the beginning, then waited for the boil to start as usual and then started my timer.

 

[Zippox]

Couple minor things. How would you top off the wort to 10 gallons in a container like that? I don't really suppose you would put a permanent marker line on the inside or anything. And when it comes time to siphon to the two carboys, is that vittles vault movable when there is 10 gal of heavy wort? Or do you leave it elevated so you can transfer later on without moving it?

 

[Serialk1llr]

For Zippox and Serial:

1) You could do that. It would be thick and hard to get the DME to dissolve, but it can be done. You would end up with a 1.180 boil. Also, extract adds volume, so be aware that adding 12# of DME to 3 gallons will push it north of 3 gallons total volume.

2) I also added all my extracts at the beginning, then waited for the boil to start as usual and then started my timer.

I have a Keg I was going to do this in (yay for shared homebrew club equipment!), but if you think it'll be to thick even at that volume, I'll break it down into two boils. Plan was to start with about 12 gallons of water, then add water at the end once the boil is over to get me back up to 10 gallons total volume, then split into to 6gal carboys. After that it would be time to forget it in the basement and let it age until spring of 2014.

 

[AmandaK]

Couple minor things. How would you top off the wort to 10 gallons in a container like that? I don't really suppose you would put a permanent marker line on the inside or anything. And when it comes time to siphon to the two carboys, is that vittles vault movable when there is 10 gal of heavy wort? Or do you leave it elevated so you can transfer later on without moving it?

To top of the Vault, I preboil and chill a pre-measured amount of water. (I usually to a 7 gallon boil with 3 gallons top off.) My boil kettle is calibrated and the 3 gallons goes in the Vault first, so I know how to get 10 gallons pretty easily.

Yes, 10 gallons of liquid is heavy. I use the boyfriend as a helper for this; we pick it up and put it on the counter for transfer.

 

[AmandaK]

I have a Keg I was going to do this in (yay for shared homebrew club equipment!), but if you think it'll be to thick even at that volume, I'll break it down into two boils. Plan was to start with about 12 gallons of water, then add water at the end once the boil is over to get me back up to 10 gallons total volume, then split into to 6gal carboys. After that it would be time to forget it in the basement and let it age until spring of 2014.

Two boils on two days would be a viable option. I don't know if it would be 'too thick', but you can give it a go!

 

[Zippox]

Well I went ahead and ordered all of the ingredients, got a digital scale, and a pound of aged hops from hopsdirect. I pick up the additional equipment from Midwest tomorrow and will start brewing probably next week. Let's hope the upcoming year and a half is worth it!

 

[Darwin18]

AmandaK - I'm going to be trying my hand at a couple lambics this year and had a question I'd like to run by you. For my usual ales and lagers (5 gallon batches), I usually use liquid yeast and always use a starter. With lambics is a starter needed or warranted? The yeast I am planning on using is the Wyeast Roeselare blend (Wyeast #3763). I was planning on brewing a standard lambic recipe, pitching the pack, and letting it go for at least a year. I'm a big fan of sour beers so I was planning on pitching the dregs from bottles throughout the year.

 

[AmandaK]

AmandaK - I'm going to be trying my hand at a couple lambics this year and had a question I'd like to run by you. For my usual ales and lagers (5 gallon batches), I usually use liquid yeast and always use a starter. With lambics is a starter needed or warranted? The yeast I am planning on using is the Wyeast Roeselare blend (Wyeast #3763). I was planning on brewing a standard lambic recipe, pitching the pack, and letting it go for at least a year. I'm a big fan of sour beers so I was planning on pitching the dregs from bottles throughout the year.

I would not make a starter for the sour mixes from Wyeast. In fact, I pitch one smack pack of Lambic Blend into 10 gallons and that seems to work for me.

One important note though, WY3763 is a great yeast, but it will not make a lambic. WY3728 is the only yeast from Wyeast that makes a good lambic. 3763 is more sour, cherry pie and fruitiness (think New Belgium's sours). 3728 is more funky, a softer sourness and overall more 'lambic-like' (think Cantillon/Boon).

 

[cdubbaya]

I'm wondering, could you explain your fermentation process a bit? Does it stay at 65F the entire secondary as well? Do you pitch yeast dregs over time, or all at once in primary?

I apologize if this has been asked, I read the entire thread, but I'm on my cell phone so I skimmed a couple comments.

Cheers! Excited to brew this as my first sour!

 

[AmandaK]

I'm wondering, could you explain your fermentation process a bit? Does it stay at 65F the entire secondary as well? Do you pitch yeast dregs over time, or all at once in primary?

I apologize if this has been asked, I read the entire thread, but I'm on my cell phone so I skimmed a couple comments.

It's been asked several times in PM, but I'll post it here so others can see as well.

Fermentation starts in my parent's kitchen (everything is done at my parent's house because I move A LOT) at around 70* in the dog food container. After a month, it gets split into two 5 gallon carboys and put in the basement under the stairs near the center of their home - temperature is a constant 62* there. Aging temp is not an exact science, but higher temps tend to push the souring along faster (but at the expense of complexity).

The dregs went in when I transferred to the secondary, but pitching them earlier would work too.

 

[cdubbaya]

Thanks for the info, I'm just getting an idea if I can ferment this at my place for that long. I will be doing a 5 gallon batch in a plastic bucket, then transferred to a 6 gallon carboy. Hoping to create a pipeline between the buckets and carboys I have.

We don't get a lot of the better sours here in MN, so I'm thinking of pitching dregs from a couple flanders reds, lambics, and american sours. I know it won't be a true lambic, but I'm hoping for a nice blend of bugs!

Do you have plans to age any of your batches on fruit?

 

[AmandaK]

Do you have plans to age any of your batches on fruit?

Funny you ask, I just transferred 3 gallons of the 2012 onto 6 lbs of tart cherries after blending 2 gallons of it into a gueuze. Time will tell if it was a good idea or not.

 

[Darwin18]

I would not make a starter for the sour mixes from Wyeast. In fact, I pitch one smack pack of Lambic Blend into 10 gallons and that seems to work for me.

One important note though, WY3763 is a great yeast, but it will not make a lambic. WY3728 is the only yeast from Wyeast that makes a good lambic. 3763 is more sour, cherry pie and fruitiness (think New Belgium's sours). 3728 is more funky, a softer sourness and overall more 'lambic-like' (think Cantillon/Boon).

Thanks Amandak! I'll have to reconsider my yeast choice. I was going to go with Roeselare but I may need to consider WY3728. Appreciate your help!

 

[Rivenin]

i don't have a lambic blend, but i have a lacto and pedio from wyeast, would i just make 3-5 gallons of this and dump both in? any suggestions?

 

[AmandaK]

i don't have a lambic blend, but i have a lacto and pedio from wyeast, would i just make 3-5 gallons of this and dump both in? any suggestions?

Lambic blend is a blend of sacc, brett, lacto & pedio. If anything, get some commercial lambics and dump the dregs in to get the rest of the species of yeast you're missing.

As a side note, I don't have personal experience doing this, but logic tells me it may work. So... YMMV.

 

[Tarheel4985]

This seems like a dumb question, but I didn't see it answered anywhere else. Would converting this to All Grain affect the lambic fermentation at all? I assume because of the fermentability of extract there would be variations but wasn't sure if there would be other considerations in brewing this one all grain.

 

[bellmtbbq]

This seems like a dumb question, but I didn't see it answered anywhere else. Would converting this to All Grain affect the lambic fermentation at all? I assume because of the fermentability of extract there would be variations but wasn't sure if there would be other considerations in brewing this one all grain.

You can make great lambics with extract but I think it's much easier to awesome lambics all grain. If you don't feel like doing a traditional turbid mash, mash high at 157-158 F and sparge with 175-185 F water. You wanna make tons of complex sugars and tannins for the Brett to work on. Tons of lambic recipes online... Check out themadfermentationist's lambic posts. Do 7-7.5 pounds of pilsner, 3-4 lbs of raw unmalted wheat, or flaked wheat. Skip the malodextrin

Don't just pitch 3278 Lambic blend. I like 3763 more, but pitch dregs, other cultures, or just ECY. It'll make a better lambic. And remember to age it for at least a year, especially all grain

 

[Zippox]

I vacuum sealed my giant one pound bag of aged hops into 2 oz bags. I realize its a little counter productive to vacuum seal stale hops but humor me here. The hops were from freshhops.com. They sure smelled cheesy!

 

[AmandaK]

I should post a picture of my old hops. It's just a plastic air tight container from the Container Store, stored on a shelf at room temp that says 'Old Ass Hops'. Haha.