Lallemand Verdant IPA yeast

[G_robertus]

@Miraculix or anyone else with experience regarding this yeast -->

Can you give some info on in what time does verdant ipa usually reach FG with worts at around 1.045 - 48 OG? How quickly is diacetyl cleaned up? Fermentation temp. is about 21 degees celsius.

I've got a few days before leaving for vacation therefore I'm wondering if it would be possible to bottle the beer before leaving.

Thanks!

I don't really take daily measurements anymore nor do I have a digital hydrometer, but usually a week or so seems about right. Because of my schedule I typically wait 10 - 14 days before packaging. Hazies I sometimes even keg at day 8 or 9 without issue.
I'm extremely sensitive to diacetyl, but I've never had huge issues with Verdant. Not that I can recall at least. New England is horrible in that regard. @dmtaylor is right though and you don't have to be completely void of diacetyl when bottling. You'll get refermentation anyway if you prime your bottles, so it'll get formed and digested again anyway.

 

[Miraculix]

I haven't had diacethyl issues a single time during my homebrew career, this includes verdant.

 

[worlddivides]

I can't say I've ever tasted diacetyl in an ale. Only in lagers (and even then, only before packaging). I do know that supposedly diacetyl can be found in some ales, but if I did taste an ale that had diacetyl in it, it must have been so faint in the background that I didn't notice it.

 

[dmtaylor]

I haven't had diacethyl issues a single time during my homebrew career, this includes verdant.

Many people are not sensitive to it. My notes say it was very slight and pleasant and did not detract. Sometimes I only find diacetyl if I look for it, but usually if present in a small amount it doesn't bother me. I'm BJCP certified so it's difficult for me not to look for it and write it down when I detect it. If I weren't a judge, I wouldn't care less.

@Sipina my only other thoughts on it are that it is quite estery compared with other yeasts, giving off extra pineapple, guava, and apple esters even when the hops don't have any of that (I used EKG and Willamette in mine). It gives improved fruity aroma compared to other yeasts.

 

[Miraculix]

Many people are not sensitive to it. My notes say it was very slight and pleasant and did not detract. Sometimes I only find diacetyl if I look for it, but usually if present in a small amount it doesn't bother me. I'm BJCP certified so it's difficult for me not to look for it and write it down when I detect it. If I weren't a judge, I wouldn't care less.

@Sipina my only other thoughts on it are that it is quite estery compared with other yeasts, giving off extra pineapple, guava, and apple esters even when the hops don't have any of that (I used EKG and Willamette in mine). It gives improved fruity aroma compared to other yeasts.

I've had diacethyl heavy lagers where it was a real problem. Brewed by clowdwaters, not by me btw. Some of the others seemed not to detect it at all but for me it was pure butter. So I doubt that I have problems tasting it. Don't know if I'm particularly sensitive to it but I taste it when it's a problem and I've never tasted it in an ale brewed by myself. And believe me, my ales do have problems . It's just not diacethyl.

 

[Sipina]

Now to report.

The beer turned out really nice for my taste. It is not strongly hopped at all but just enough to get a subtle noble hops note in the mix. I will repeat the recipe because I'm really enjoying the beer but will put more hops in the next time. The grain bill gives a lovely bready, grainy profile with rich mouthfeel but still easy to drink.

Regarding the Verdant IPA yeast. I'm getting relatively strong fruit notes and indeed I would say they remind me most of stone fruits especially aprioct in this recipe. With different recipe the fruit perception might get totally different. What I love most is that the yeast plays very well with the malt and hop flavors. I don't have lots of experience with supposedly english yeast however I do like the Verdant IPA better than fermentis SO-4 I had tried before. Note that I quite enjoy yeast presence in my beers.

That's for now. What I will think of it in the future and with more experiences regarding english yeasts (which I intend to explore more) might change but in any case Verdant IPA can certainly make some lovely beer.

Cheers!

 

[Halfakneecap]

I just bottled a 6%+ Cascadian ale with Verdant. Samples were great. I will be cracking a bottle as soon as they are carbed. Dry hopped with Centennial. I am a big fan of dark beer and dank hops. 2 packs and hit 75% attenuation. I may try a pale version next time.

 

[Sipina]

The Verdant IPA yeast seems to be maturing quite fast - at least compared to some of the belgian yeasts I'm used too.
There are still noticable esters in the beer but they have lessend since my last post which was 10 days ago.
Given proper time conditioning time this yeast might work quite well in a more balanced beer recipes for sure.

 

[Miraculix]

I just bottled a 6%+ Cascadian ale with Verdant. Samples were great. I will be cracking a bottle as soon as they are carbed. Dry hopped with Centennial. I am a big fan of dark beer and dank hops. 2 packs and hit 75% attenuation. I may try a pale version next time.

That is a prime example of a beer type that I would use this yeast in.

 

[Halfakneecap]

That is a prime example of a beer type that I would use this yeast in.

I know you don't like it for British beers. I like it a lot for british beers as well as dark and hoppy beers.

I think i'll try an IPA next though. I have lots of Centennial, and Cascade

 

[Miraculix]

I know you don't like it for British beers. I like it a lot for british beers as well as dark and hoppy beers.

I think i'll try an IPA next though. I have lots of Centennial, and Cascade

You can also try it in a tropical stout! 6% + abv, 20 ibus, 20% muscovado sugar... it is amazing!

 

[Sipina]

I dont have tons of experience with english beers however I do have some and taking that into account ... with further maturation of this beer with verdant yeast I'm certainly getting 'english ale' vibes. Enjoying it quite a lot. Will use this yeast again for sure.

 

[Miraculix]

I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales.

Not a single time I have tasted an ale over there that was even close to what verdant brings to the table. And I've spent five years there. But maybe I've just missed something?

 

[Sipina]

I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales.

Not a single time I have tasted an ale over there that was even close to what verdant brings to the table. And I've spent five years there. But maybe I've just missed something?

I understand. It's coming from my limited experience of what I can get over here far from UK cask ales or other proper beers. Take that into account whoever is reading this.

 

[Sipina]

I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales.

Not a single time I have tasted an ale over there that was even close to what verdant brings to the table. And I've spent five years there. But maybe I've just missed something?

Upon reading a bit around the forums and the internet there seem to be other individuals who think they're getting the 'english ale' profile with verdant ipa yeast.
I would love to hear more about it to further my beer knowledge and see, if it's just my crazy mind.

Good day to all!

 

[Miraculix]

Upon reading a bit around the forums and the internet there seem to be other individuals who think they're getting the 'english ale' profile with verdant ipa yeast.
I would love to hear more about it to further my beer knowledge and see, if it's just my crazy mind.

Good day to all!

As far as I am seeing this, these are mainly non-brits who have developed their knwoledge based on stuff they read on the internet. In their mind, British ales have to taste like this and that, and Verdant fits with what they think it should taste like. It is a big bubble bias. Then there are people like @Northern_Brewer who really know something about British ale and they tend to agree with what I have said regarding Vardant. I am also not an expert. But I've had my fair share of ale when I was living across the pond.

Verdant can be a fabolous yeast, I use it regularly. But not for classic bitters. If you like it's taste, it is all good, it is just nothing I would call British or English tasting. It is it's own beast. I like it in lower abv American style ales and IPAs. I've also made a great tropical stout with it in the past. But every bitter attempt failed. The particular yeast flavour is just too overwhelming, regardless the given fermentation temperature.

 

[Sipina]

As far as I am seeing this, these are mainly non-brits who have developed their knwoledge based on stuff they read on the internet. In their mind, British ales have to taste like this and that, and Verdant fits with what they think it should taste like. It is a big bubble bias. Then there are people like @Northern_Brewer who really know something about British ale and they tend to agree with what I have said regarding Vardant. I am also not an expert. But I've had my fair share of ale when I was living across the pond.

Verdant can be a fabolous yeast, I use it regularly. But not for classic bitters. If you like it's taste, it is all good, it is just nothing I would call British or English tasting. It is it's own beast. I like it in lower abv American style ales and IPAs. I've also made a great tropical stout with it in the past. But every bitter attempt failed. The particular yeast flavour is just too overwhelming, regardless the given fermentation temperature.

Are you also implying in this case that BJCP descriptions regarding these 'english ale' styles are not accurate at all?

 

[Miraculix]

Are you also implying in this case that BJCP descriptions regarding these 'english ale' styles are not accurate at all?

Man we have had this topic dozens of times here. The bjcp is completely irrelevant to English beers.

 

[Sipina]

Man we have had this topic dozens of times here. The bjcp is completely irrelevant to English beers.

I see. By what descriptors could one possibly determine the qualites of 'english style ale' ?

 

[Miraculix]

I see. By what descriptors could one possibly determine the qualites of 'english style ale' ?

Go to the UK, find yourself a proper pub who knows how to treat a cask and the lines and see for yourself!

How would you manage to experience the taste of chocolate without eating it yourself?

 

[Sipina]

Go to the UK, find yourself a proper pub who knows how to treat a cask and the lines and see for yourself!

How would you manage to experience the taste of chocolate without eating it yourself?

You have got a point of course and I agree however let me also give you an example of what a what I believe is a good description. Here: https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/penzance-mild-2025-camra-champion.107508/

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

 

[Miraculix]

You have got a point of course and I agree however let me also give you an example of what a what I believe is a good description. Here: https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/penzance-mild-2025-camra-champion.107508/

Let me know your thoughts.

Cheers!

It's a mild, probably a good one. I think I'm the UK forum you might find good general directions!

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Like Northern Brewer I’ve been drinking British Bitter for a long time and I can tell you it’s so much better now than 50 years ago. I ignore the BJCP guidelines as these are so wrong. However British Bitter is an evolving drink with ingredients from the UK and elsewhere and that like our food is a good thing. Thank goodness we don’t have German Purity rules. Personally I wouldn’t use Verdant in bitter only IPA but I don’t have a problem with anyone who does. Only 2 types of beer Good and Bad, if you think a beer is good then drink and make it.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

It's a mild, probably a good one. I think I'm the UK forum you might find good general directions!

For me a good mild is an oxymoron.

 

[worlddivides]

I also don't think anyone who's suggested using Verdant in an English ale was suggesting to use it in a bitter. "English ales" refers to all the ales in England, which is a pretty huge category. Milds, stouts, porters, brown ales, barleywines, old ales, strong ales, pale ales (all bitters are pale ales, but not all pale ales are bitters), burton ales, and on and on. I've seen this quite a few times where someone mentions "English ales" and someone automatically assumes "bitters." It also gets more complicated since modern British craft breweries sometimes do beers that are English styles but not remotely traditional (one of the best stouts I've ever had was a chocolate brownie-themed imperial stout by an English brewery). Verdant itself is an example of this (I saw an interviewer with the founder/head brewer talking about using the Verdant yeast in more traditional English ales too). Personally I've only ever used Verdant in hazy (i.e. New England, not England) IPAs, but I don't think it's fair to say the people who think Verdant is good in English ales just aren't familiar with English ales.

 

[Miraculix]

... but I don't think it's fair to say the people who think Verdant is good in English ales just aren't familiar with English ales.

That was not the point I tried to underline. The main thing was, that this yeast has nothing to do with the typical flavour of classic english strains. Bitters, strong ales, does not really matter, it just does not fit if you want it to be a classic one. If you want to reinvent somehting, go for it! Obviously, beer is something that has changed over time and is continuously changing. Just look at all these British beers that now feature upfront american hops, for example. Btw. this would be a beer where I would see Verdant really shine in.

Doesn't mean that it cannot be used for a "standard" bitter, I brew what I personnaly like and do not give anything about what style guidelines or other people might think. It's just not in the same room as a normal bitter, if you ask me. Us05 would work, boring but would work. Vedant would not really, it is too expressive. It is like brewing a bitter with a Hefeweizenyeast. Yes, you could do it, and you probably SHOULD do it, if you like the outcome. It is just not something I would call a "normal" English bitter.

 

[worlddivides]

I definitely agree that Verdant does not make me think "classic" or "typical" English ale, but I don't recall him ever saying anything about bitters or classic traditional flavors. Verdant has a pretty unique flavor. But since it is related to London Ale III, it does share some of the same characteristics, and I have to imagine that might be where people pick out "English ale characteristics." Verdant is fruity, but so are a ton of English ale strains. Again, I personally have only had it in hazy IPAs, so I don't have the same experience as people who might have used it in an English ale (like Halfakneecap).

 

[Cheshire Cat]

As I alluded to earlier British beer in all its guises is evolving in taste, ingredients and names. The BJCP miss the whole point that most light and amber UK beers are bitters in one form or another. For example
Pale Ale is bottled bitter
IPA is strong bottled bitter
Golden Ale in very pale bitter
Amber ale is amber bitter
Luckily we don’t have an Old England IPA that opaque.
So there is no reason not to put whatever hops and yeast into these.
My favourite bitters however have in the main English hops and Nottingham yeast.

 

[Miraculix]

I definitely agree that Verdant does not make me think "classic" or "typical" English ale, but I don't recall him ever saying anything about bitters or classic traditional flavors. Verdant has a pretty unique flavor. But since it is related to London Ale III, it does share some of the same characteristics, and I have to imagine that might be where people pick out "English ale characteristics." Verdant is fruity, but so are a ton of English ale strains. Again, I personally have only had it in hazy IPAs, so I don't have the same experience as people who might have used it in an English ale (like Halfakneecap).

Try it in a beer which does not have american hops in it and you will agree with me. I am 100% sure. I do not understand what American hop does to verdant, but it changes it's characteristics completely. It is like a completely different yeast once the American hops are not there. Really, I have not a single idea how this is even possible, but I have witnessed this so often that I am just accepting it as a given trait that I do not understand. But I can work with it!

 

[balrog]

Try it in a beer which does not have american hops in it and you will agree with me. I am 100% sure. I do not understand what American hop does to verdant, but it changes it's characteristics completely. It is like a completely different yeast once the American hops are not there. Really, I have not a single idea how this is even possible, but I have witnessed this so often that I am just accepting it as a given trait that I do not understand. But I can work with it!

Perhaps.
But I do love your classic english ale with 1/2 verdant and 1/2 notty.

 

[Miraculix]

Perhaps.
But I do love your classic english ale with 1/2 verdant and 1/2 notty.

Let's say, it is better than 100% Verdant .

Wasn't it me that came up with that idea as a Pub replacement for the Miraculix best? I think I ended up with something like 1/4 or 1/3 verdant and the rest notty, at my last tryout. Was decent!

 

[Halfakneecap]

I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales.

Not a single time I have tasted an ale over there that was even close to what verdant brings to the table. And I've spent five years there. But maybe I've just missed something?

I struggle to understand why you have such a strong reaction to people who like Verdant for british beers. It's obvious you don't like it, i get that, but why does it bother you so much that some people do like it?

TT landlord is a completely different beer to London Pride etc, there is no one "classic" british beer, is there?

There are many different british ale strains to choose from, and are very different to each other.

 

[worlddivides]

Try it in a beer which does not have american hops in it and you will agree with me. I am 100% sure. I do not understand what American hop does to verdant, but it changes it's characteristics completely. It is like a completely different yeast once the American hops are not there. Really, I have not a single idea how this is even possible, but I have witnessed this so often that I am just accepting it as a given trait that I do not understand. But I can work with it!

I tend to ferment most English ales at between 16C and 18C (and often let the temperature rise up to around 20C near the end of fermentation, being careful it doesn't get too high), whereas with the hazy IPAs I've done with Verdant (and I have another one with Citra, Galaxy, and Amarillo planned that also uses Verdant), I try to keep the temperature consistently around 19C or even 20C. If I had central air conditioning and tons more space for kegs and bottles, then I'd probably do an experiment with Verdant in a London porter or a mild, maybe testing fermenting it at 16C in one version and at 19C in another. I might even try it in a strong bitter, maybe using English hops that I could see working with its ester profile.

 

[worlddivides]

I struggle to understand why you have such a strong reaction to people who like Verdant for british beers. It's obvious you don't like it, i get that, but why does it bother you so much that some people do like it?

TT landlord is a completely different beer to London Pride etc, there is no one "classic" british beer, is there?

There are many different british ale strains to choose from, and are very different to each other.

You're also not the only person who likes Verdant in British beers. I've read and seen quite a few people who like it for British beers (though they're definitely not in the majority), so it's a common enough opinion.

 

[Halfakneecap]

I tend to ferment most English ales at between 16C and 18C (and often let the temperature rise up to around 20C near the end of fermentation, being careful it doesn't get too high), whereas with the hazy IPAs I've done with Verdant (and I have another one with Citra, Galaxy, and Amarillo planned that also uses Verdant), I try to keep the temperature consistently around 19C or even 20C. If I had central air conditioning and tons more space for kegs and bottles, then I'd probably do an experiment with Verdant in a London porter or a mild, maybe testing fermenting it at 16C in one version and at 19C in another. I might even try it in a strong bitter, maybe using English hops that I could see working with its ester profile.

I always ferment on the cooler side, 16-18c for ales. Just pitched verdant in an all cascade pale at 16c.

 

[Miraculix]

I struggle to understand why you have such a strong reaction to people who like Verdant for british beers. It's obvious you don't like it, i get that, but why does it bother you so much that some people do like it?

TT landlord is a completely different beer to London Pride etc, there is no one "classic" british beer, is there?

There are many different british ale strains to choose from, and are very different to each other.

I think you are over interpreting my writings. I can assure you that there is no strong reaction on my side. I'm just trying to explain.

 

[Miraculix]

You're also not the only person who likes Verdant in British beers. I've read and seen quite a few people who like it for British beers (though they're definitely not in the majority), so it's a common enough opinion.

Common enough for what? What are you guys actually trying to say here ? Or maybe better question, what do you guys actually think that I'm trying to say? I think there might be a big difference to what I actually tried to say.

 

[worlddivides]

Common enough for what? What are you guys actually trying to say here ? Or maybe better question, what do you guys actually think that I'm trying to say? I think there might be a big difference to what I actually tried to say.

What do you mean "for what?" Pretty common enough of an opinion that it's not so bizarre that a decent number of people think it. You said, "I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales." And I said, among other things, "I don't think it's fair to say the people who think Verdant is good in English ales just aren't familiar with English ales." and pointed out reasons why people would think that. It's not like they're saying a Hefeweizen yeast is good in English ales or a Kveik yeast is good in English ales. They're saying that a yeast by an English brewery (Verdant) derived from a pretty famous English ale yeast (London Ale III) goes good in "English ales." The fact that that brewery mainly makes US-style beers is kind of irrelevant since the US style they make is famous for using almost exclusively English ale yeasts. And why do you need to go to England to know what English ales taste like? I actually have been to England, but I never tasted anything there that I haven't been able to taste in Japan or the US. It's not like there's this secret vault of English ales that they refuse to let leave the country and refuse to let anyone outside the country brew. I may not have ever brewed an English ale with Verdant, but I'm not assuming that people like Halfakneecap and Sipina know nothing of English ales and are just parroting what they read online from other people who know nothing of English ales.

 

[Miraculix]

What do you mean "for what?" Pretty common enough of an opinion that it's not so bizarre that a decent number of people think it. You said, "I have not the slightest idea how somebody might get English ale vibes from verdant. Unless this person never spent time in UK, trying some of their ales." And I said, among other things, "I don't think it's fair to say the people who think Verdant is good in English ales just aren't familiar with English ales." and pointed out reasons why people would think that. It's not like they're saying a Hefeweizen yeast is good in English ales or a Kveik yeast is good in English ales. They're saying that a yeast by an English brewery (Verdant) derived from a pretty famous English ale yeast (London Ale III) goes good in "English ales." The fact that that brewery mainly makes US-style beers is kind of irrelevant since the US style they make is famous for using almost exclusively English ale yeasts. And why do you need to go to England to know what English ales taste like? I actually have been to England, but I never tasted anything there that I haven't been able to taste in Japan or the US. It's not like there's this secret vault of English ales that they refuse to let leave the country and refuse to let anyone outside the country brew. I may not have ever brewed an English ale with Verdant, but I'm not assuming that people like Halfakneecap and Sipina know nothing of English ales and are just parroting what they read online from other people who know nothing of English ales.

I don't get your point. I pretty much explained everything in post 66? Or what did I miss?