Lager yeast selection

[TrickyDick]

Hey.

Planning on brewing more lagers. Have done one and it turned out well, but took long and kept from brewing other beers as was my only temp controlled fermentation fridge that was occupied for so long. Anyway, have a conical and temp controlled freezer now for lagering.
Was thinking I could reasonably brew, ferment, and lager 4 beers per year with 2-3 mos of lagering per brew.

I was thinking in the next year to brew a Munich Helles, doppelbock, maibock, and Oktoberfest.

Since I do not like to spend $8 or so give or take, for liquid yeast, and probably need multiple vials, and step up starters for 11g batches, I am wondering what to do.

I know any yeast would work, but I am wondering first off if a single strain can produce a great result for all 4 of those styles. Thought I would ask since I don't use lager yeast much, except for the one lager I brewed. Can a dry yeast work as well as a liquid for all these styles?

Also, was wondering how feasible harvesting and reusing lager yeast is. Especially if the yeast is going to be sitting idle for 2-3 months while the beer it was harvested from is still lagering. I'd of course have to build up a starter, etc

Thanks for any insight or advice.

 

[StoneHands]

In January, I did back to back brews of helles, oktoberfest, and dunkel, and reused the yeast in each subsequent batch, and they all taste good. I really like WLP833 (Ayinger's yeast), and I use it in a doppelbock with great success too. I like maltier beers and this yeast leaves a malty profile.
I did a starter for the helles first. When it was finished, I racked the beer to the keg and left the yeast in the fermenter. I swirled up the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter, poured off about 2 cups into a sanitized container, cleaned and sanitized the fermenter, racked my new wort into the fermenter, and pitched my yeast. Actually, I kept the yeast in the container overnight and pitched the next day usually. If you go light to dark, it works well, essentially, don't pitch your washed/rinsed dunkel yeast into a new helles. Helles is probably the only beer I would do a new, clean starter for since it's so light.

Some people just reuse a whole cake, I think that's overpitching. With a conical, you have it even easier IMO, you can dump clean yeast into a sanitized container and keep it before needing it. Are you lagering and fermenting in the conical? My method requires two different vessels. Someone else can chime in on how long dumped yeast will keep in the fridge if you have to wait on your conical.

 

[Brewday365]

Why do you plan on lagering 2-3 months in your conical? You say that you have temp control. Are your beers prone to diacetyl that would require that much time? If not, then would a glass secondary with an orange cap fitted with an "in" line and a air filter attached to the "out" hole and purged with C02 be a great non-oxidized conditioning container after the beer reaches week 2 or 3 of active fermentation?

 

[BigFloyd]

I'd look at Wyeast 2124 Bohemian lager yeast for those. I've got a batch of Maibock currently on 2124 at 49*F. When it's done, I'll harvest that cake for sure. The next batch it sees will probably be a Munich Dunkel.

You can harvest, rinse and store in mason jars of sterilized water inside the fridge for the time periods you're looking at.

 

[theathleticsfan]

In my experience, saflager 34/70 has been a great, clean dry yeast. I have used it on a Munich Helles and German Pils with very good results. 2 rehydrated packets for 5 gallons gets you the cell count you need.

 

[StoneHands]

For White Labs, check out this link. It shows WLP833 as very good for the 4 styles you mentioned.

 

[TrickyDick]

Why do you plan on lagering 2-3 months in your conical? You say that you have temp control. Are your beers prone to diacetyl that would require that much time? If not, then would a glass secondary with an orange cap fitted with an "in" line and a air filter attached to the "out" hole and purged with C02 be a great non-oxidized conditioning container after the beer reaches week 2 or 3 of active fermentation?

Thanks for asking. Like I said, I've only ever done one lager in past. Have ordered the book by Noonan to read up on brewing lagers. No diacetyl on that one I did few years ago.
did it in a mini fridge with temp controller for fermentation and lagering.
Now i have a 14gal conical in a freezer with a temp controller.
Only reason I planned to lager 2-3 months was because recipes I've seen say to do so. Is this too long to lager, or simply unnecessary to do so for that amount of time?
I had planned to do in the conical, but I suppose could just as easily put into serving kegs and into the serving fridge. The kegs would be easier to work with in the serving fridge compared to glass carboys. If I used kegs, would i need to fit an airlock or adjustable pressure relief valve during lagering? Other than that serving fridge, I don't have any great places to control temp down to lagering levels, except for one mini fridge, and I've since moved to 11g batches for two Corny kegs worth of finished beer. Mini fridge can hold at least 9 ball lock kegs, possibly more. Maybe there is a lagering chest freezer in my future (do kegs fit upright into chest freezers without a collar?)

Thanks!!
TD

 

[StoneHands]

There's a rule of thumb for lagering time, 1 week for every 8 original gravity points I believe. At a minimum I like to do 4 weeks. My helles gets clear at 6 weeks. I lager my doppelbock for 6 months (unnecessary, but it turns out nice). I lager in my serving fridge. No need for fitting an airlock, I actually put mine on gas too while it lagers, it does not hurt. I also do not bother with a transfer to a "clean" serving keg. If you don't move the keg, it's fine.
Bottom line - lager in the keg!

 

[TrickyDick]

In January, I did back to back brews of helles, oktoberfest, and dunkel, and reused the yeast in each subsequent batch, and they all taste good. I really like WLP833 (Ayinger's yeast), and I use it in a doppelbock with great success too. I like maltier beers and this yeast leaves a malty profile.
I did a starter for the helles first. When it was finished, I racked the beer to the keg and left the yeast in the fermenter. I swirled up the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter, poured off about 2 cups into a sanitized container, cleaned and sanitized the fermenter, racked my new wort into the fermenter, and pitched my yeast. Actually, I kept the yeast in the container overnight and pitched the next day usually. If you go light to dark, it works well, essentially, don't pitch your washed/rinsed dunkel yeast into a new helles. Helles is probably the only beer I would do a new, clean starter for since it's so light.

Some people just reuse a whole cake, I think that's overpitching. With a conical, you have it even easier IMO, you can dump clean yeast into a sanitized container and keep it before needing it. Are you lagering and fermenting in the conical? My method requires two different vessels. Someone else can chime in on how long dumped yeast will keep in the fridge if you have to wait on your conical.

Thanks!
One idea I had was to save half the yeast cake from my Helles, and set aside for the next Helles, to keep light color. Other option, from another responder might be to use dry yeast if I want a really light style. Personally I think taste trumps color and clarity, so maybe I just don't worry about it!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

For White Labs, check out this link. It shows WLP833 as very good for the 4 styles you mentioned.

Cool! That's a neat table comparing the strains to styles. I assume 0 means no data. Looks Ike 833 is a winner!

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

There's a rule of thumb for lagering time, 1 week for every 8 original gravity points I believe. At a minimum I like to do 4 weeks. My helles gets clear at 6 weeks. I lager my doppelbock for 6 months (unnecessary, but it turns out nice). I lager in my serving fridge. No need for fitting an airlock, I actually put mine on gas too while it lagers, it does not hurt. I also do not bother with a transfer to a "clean" serving keg. If you don't move the keg, it's fine.
Bottom line - lager in the keg!

That's pretty good info! Thanks a bunch! How long should I expect fermentation to take?
My recipe OG is (1.0)50 Helles, 56 Fest, doppelbock 96 (might scale that back as need a 1.25-1.3 grain:water ratio just to fit it in the tun), maibock 68
Is there a rule of thumb for ferment times too based on gravity?

Looks like I can a LOT more than 4 lagers per year then if I move the lagering into kegs, or purged carboys!

Thanks!
TD

 

[Brewday365]

Yeah, you could turn over a lager most likely every three weeks. I typically just use kegs for conditioning. I don't call it lagering because there is not really any yeast in those kegs (just what settles out during a crash cool or over time). With modern fermentation methods the diacetyl reduction should be complete by week three even for the biggest lagers. So I would move them, collect yeast, measure yeast and repitch proper amounts in the next batch. Your space to properly cold store kegs or carboys will probably limit your lager production more than the ability to turn over batches from the conical.

 

[Brewday365]

Oh yeah, and I am a Bohemian Lager Yeast fan (2024). I use it for everything.

 

[StoneHands]

A properly pitched lager with adequate initial O2 and proper temperature (a lot to think about, huh?) should be wrapped up in 5-7 days believe it or not, 10 days at the most for something really high in gravity. I leave mine for 2 weeks and then transfer after checking the gravity to make sure it's complete. I quit checking for diacetyl since I pitch below fermentation temps, never had a problem with it, so I don't do the rest either.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good information here! Thank you all very much!

So gravity and fermentation time not really significant under those assumptions. 2-3 weeks is entirely reasonable.

So proper pitching rates, check (I use yeast calc, and seem to have good results going by those numbers). Even in spite of controversy compared to microscopes. Double the rate for lagers vs ales.

Proper oxygenation. I do not have a DIssolved oxygen meter. I usually run hardware store oxy cylinder through a diffusion stone for 1 minute for ales, 90 sec for ales over 1.065, and lagers probably do the same. That sound good enough without buying an DOM? I might get a medical O2 cylinder from work and run that, which has a gauge for L/min for more accurate oxygenation, and to avoid those oxy clyinders that have an unpredictable life expectancy.

Pitching below fermentation temps helps to avoid a diacetyl eh? I think I'll try that. Ground water temp 72 if I'm lucky. Can immersion chill down past 100, then run through the plate chiller pumping ice water will "pin" the ThruMometer on the low temp setting or even just got entirely black.

So I guess, my decision is: WLP 833 vs wyeast bohemian lager. What is the White Lab equivalent of the wyeast bohemian lager strain? I can look at the chart again.
I think I will ultimately want to try to get down to just using only a few yeasts for most brew to cut down on costs. Occasionally fun to experiment but $6-8 per tube gets old fast.

Thanks again!

TD

 

[DrunkCanuck73]

great info guys my last four beers have been lagers. I am only drinking one right now, but it turned out so well I have three on the go now. I used S-23 for two of them and Octoberfest from WL. I havent tasted the beers done with the WL Octoberfest yeast(one is still in fermentation)yet so I cant comment on them. I know the fermentation was slow starting on the WL yeast. I pitched it too cool maybe at 7*C =45*F. slowly brought temp up to 12*C=54*F, its fine now. Good luck, even if they are not brewed perfectly to style they will still be great beers I bet.

 

[KegWrangler]

I like WLP 838 or Wyeast 2038 for all of the above plus bohemian lagers as well. I think if you want to repitch just start with the lightest beer first and move to progressively darker/heavier beers. Maybe start over again with a fresh yeast when you get back to the start.

I usually lager 2-5gallon corneys of the same batch for 4-6 weeks before tapping the first. Then the second half gets an extra 4-6 weeks of lager time...boy howdy does that half end up smooth and brilliant!

 

[TrickyDick]

So I was checking on the white labs website. Seems that the linky to the white lab yeast strain is inconsistent with the data posted on the "more info" page of each yeast. I went into all of the tabs, and found no single yeast given a 4 (highest) rating for the four styles I'd like to make.
Interestingly, their bock yeast 833, is only given 2 rating for bock, and also for dopplebock.

Of their yeast, I think 830 WLP is the same as wyeast 2124 based on description of most used yeast worldwide given on both wyeast and white lab websites.

The 830 had a 2 rating for all the styles I plan.
The 833 had 2x2,2x4 with the 2 for both bock styles
The 802 (Czech budejovice) and 810 (San Fran) and 838(southern Ger) and 820 (Oktoberfest) were only strains I saw that had 4 rating on dopplebock.
There were two 838 & 820 which had 3x4 for my four planned styles, and the bock had 2 rating.

Anyway, I think I am probably going to use the 833 anyway. Seems like probably all over analyzed anyway, and probably all can make a great tasting beer.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

I like WLP 838 or Wyeast 2038 for all of the above plus bohemian lagers as well. I think if you want to repitch just start with the lightest beer first and move to progressively darker/heavier beers. Maybe start over again with a fresh yeast when you get back to the start.

I usually lager 2-5gallon corneys of the same batch for 4-6 weeks before tapping the first. Then the second half gets an extra 4-6 weeks of lager time...boy howdy does that half end up smooth and brilliant!

You like the 838 ? As I posted, that is rated 4 for three of the styles I am planning. In reading the website for that strain, the reviews are off the hook. I think this is gonna be my pick. Here is the link: http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp838-southern-german-lager-yeast?s=homebrew

TD

 

[StoneHands]

I can say without question that 833 makes a fantastic doppelbock. IMO it's made for that style. Ayinger's doppel is world class.
I used to use 838, and it was fine, but I like the maltiness of 833 that much better.
I've never used 820 because I heard it was a slow starter.

This will help with the two different liquid yeast manufacturers.

 

[KegWrangler]

You like the 838 ? As I posted, that is rated 4 for three of the styles I am planning. In reading the website for that strain, the reviews are off the hook. I think this is gonna be my pick. Here is the link: http://www.whitelabs.com/yeast/wlp838-southern-german-lager-yeast?s=homebrew

TD

I've been happy with 838, but then I've never tried 833...they were out of it the first time I bought it (for a Vienna I think) and figured I wouldn't mess with success. I 'spose I might give it a try for my next dopplebock since it comes highly reccomended.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hmm. Decisions decisions. Heh, maybe I buy a tube of each and pitch both!

Well, I've also been reading on big pitch rates needed for pitching cold. I have a 5L flask and a 2L flask I can use for doing a starter.

When building a lager starter, I assume I am going to need to step up the starter at least once for an 11 gal batch. Mr malty says ill need 8-9 fresh packs for the Munich Helles, or three packs with a nearly 5L starter on a stir plate. Can't access yeast calc on iPad, or I'd check step starters.
So when building this starter, at room temp, on a stir plate, assuming I am going to have to buy three packs of yeast ( at least $30 after shipping!), should get me to proper pitch rates with a 5L starter.
How much more cells would I need to do a "cold pitch"?
When I "cold crash" the yeast, how long will it take to get the yeasties to settle down for a lager yeast?

Incidentally, I found a couple 2-3 year old tubes of Czech budejovice lager yeast in my fridge the other day! Viability gotta be lousy on that!

TD

Hah! Went to yeast calc. Looks like I'm buying three tubes minimum depending on viability. Looking at an 11 gallon doppelbock brew at 1.095 I'd need to make a massive starter, 5L with 3 tubes 80% viable, and then step up TWICE with 5L starters! Might be able to cut down to 3-4L on final step! Holy wow on the yeast production there! Knowing how long it takes to cold crash will be vital in planning that starter! Either that or 17 tubes of 85% viable yeast ($150 with shipping easy!) insane!!

 

[DrunkCanuck73]

Man that is an insane amount of yeast. I'm no expert here, only been brewing over a year, but have brewed lots almost 40 batches. Can that be right for yeast amount? C'mon where are all the experts? Couldn't you just make like a couple 2 liter starters and be ok? I know I have lots to learn still, but as long as your yeast started to ferment and procreate would they just keep multiplying until the job was done?

 

[Hogarthe]

Man that is an insane amount of yeast. I'm no expert here, only been brewing over a year, but have brewed lots almost 40 batches. Can that be right for yeast amount? C'mon where are all the experts? Couldn't you just make like a couple 2 liter starters and be ok? I know I have lots to learn still, but as long as your yeast started to ferment and procreate would they just keep multiplying until the job was done?

for ales, you could do that. the yeast make some esters and other flavor compounds when they have to reproduce a lot, and you don't want that in a lager. best thing to do is make a 4 liter starter and pitch it in a low gravity beer. then ferment the high gravity beer right on top of the yeast cake from that batch. this way, you get 5 gallons of lawnmower beer and enough yeast for the big beer, and the cost is either the same or even less than buying numerous packs of yeast, and extract for making gallons of starters.

 

[TrickyDick]

Yeah. That's a good idea.

Using the braukaiser/brewers friend and beer smith software I can get away with 3 packs and a single 5L starter. But the yeast calculators do not all agree. Brewing a small beer and then a bigger beer makes sense. However I'd run out of fermenter and lagering space to store the small beer rather fast. I need to get a schedule put together that let's me take advantage of brewing and reusing yeast so I can harvest fresh active yeast for pitching onto the next brew immediately. This is hard to accomplish every time for a home hobby

This is an interesting aspect of brewing. I had two weeks off work recently and unexpectedly in a way. I ended up brewing almost all days. I spent hours working out which primary buckets and which secondary carboys each beer would be in, when to rack, when to keg and when I could brew again. Tried to re-pitch where possible and there are great advantages that the pros enjoy since our hobby is their day job, and our starter is their yesterday's yeast cake.

I enjoyed this aspect. And I now have a carboy farm in my "basement". Brewing for 10 gal finished drinkable beer also ups the ante over 5 gal batches. Yeast management and waste disposal (near 300 pounds spent grain in 2 weeks) are considerations I had never considered before.

Anyway. It was "fun".

I am thinking that I will eventfully aim for 1-2 brews per month and likely get close to one per month. I am also thinking that I will also try to establish a yeast library so I can be free of $6-8 per pack yeast cost. Hopefully I can do all lagers and all ales with one yeast
For each brew across all
Styles. Plus I have a Belgian 500+550 WLP 1.078OG dubbel going that I will save yeast from. Should be good all around yeast for Belgians. I also have a few ale Yeast washing jars including a Kolsch strain. I am hoping to use pacman for all ales and 838 for all lagers and the Belgian combo and Kolsch strains when I do those less frequent brews.

When I began brewing I thought temps and yeasts were less important but I now realize that temp control and yeast management is the most important after basic wort production and sanitization are addressed. We can only make wort. Yeast makes the beer.

Anyways,

Thanks for all the advice. Very helpful to me!

TD

 

[StoneHands]

TD, I believe that the "2" shown on the full page of WL website for the 833 is incorrect, hell it's called "Bock Yeast", it's made for a bock. Regardless, 833 or 838, you won't be disappointed if you have good practice on pitching rate and temperature control. You're correct, temperature control IMO is the single most important thing you can do to make your beer go from OK to fantastic.

I would start off with making a helles if those are the beers you want in your rotation. Even make a 5 gallon helles to help you with your yeast (you won't need as many vials or need such a huge starter). I also like to save a bit of my helles wort for future starters, freeze it in a freezer bag and thaw and reboil before using it in a starter. Helles wort is so light, it makes great yeast without adding any flavors if you want to use the starter in a different beer.

I need to plan my next helles....

 

[TrickyDick]

TD, I believe that the "2" shown on the full page of WL website for the 833 is incorrect, hell it's called "Bock Yeast", it's made for a bock. Regardless, 833 or 838, you won't be disappointed if you have good practice on pitching rate and temperature control. You're correct, temperature control IMO is the single most important thing you can do to make your beer go from OK to fantastic.

I would start off with making a helles if those are the beers you want in your rotation. Even make a 5 gallon helles to help you with your yeast (you won't need as many vials or need such a huge starter). I also like to save a bit of my helles wort for future starters, freeze it in a freezer bag and thaw and reboil before using it in a starter. Helles wort is so light, it makes great yeast without adding any flavors if you want to use the starter in a different beer.

I need to plan my next helles....

Good advice.

I have long been wanting to make a starter wort and pressure can it in quart size jars. However, I always prefer to make beer when I have a chance to brew. One of these days ill do it. I'm gonna end up brewing a 11 gal and splitting with a good friend. I might be able to find a way to make more wort than is necessary for the 11 gal, as my mash tun can get easily hold more grain, and then reserve this wort for use in future starters. I'll look into the ziplock bag and freezer idea. I regretfully sold my old quart sized pressure canner.

TD

 

[TrickyDick]

OK-

So I've brewed three lagers with the WLP 838.
My first two suffered a bit from DMS, but I have fixed the offensive boil burner issues, and I was successfully able to purge the DMS residual flavor and aroma (mostly aroma) from the Helles. It turned out pretty well, and I am planning a side by side taste test with Hofbrau Original soon, the only authentic German Helles (I think this is a Helles) I can get my hands on locally, even if it is in green bottles.

I have since brewed a Septemberfest (like an ocktoberfest, but not quite there) which has some dms in it as well. I intend to purge this after lagering is finished. So far its been about 6 weeks lagering, though the first two it was still on the yeast cone. Not malty enough, which I attribute to my simple grist and skipped decoction but step mashed instead. I may bolster the keg by blending a pint of doppelbock in with it to boost malt presence, but might just drink as is. So far only hydro samples but I should be ready to taste it this weekend.

My third and so far most ambitious lager was a Doppelbock with a single, but massive, decoction. OG 1.101, 7-8 points higher than I predicted from my usual step mash efficiency. Smells and tastes great in the few samples I've pulled. This one will take some time for sure.

Now for my next planned brew, I was thinking about a MaiBock. I was thinking about brewing it in November or December. I've only had one heavily distracted sample of MaiBock that had unusual spices and flavorings added to the brew, so I don't really know any commercial examples to which to compare. I am concerned, that once primary fermentation of my doppelbock is finished (probably in another 1-2 weeks) that the huge yeast colony I have going will be fizzled out by the time I plan my NEXT lager, the MaiBock. I was thinking about trying a different yeast, or possible just brewing the maibock sooner with some of the old yeast (this would be a fourth beer for the yeast).

I can't seem to find many recommended yeast strains for MaiBock specifically, only Bock. Also, lacking any personal knowledge of what the classic examples taste like, I'm sort of clueless as to what would be appropriate for planning this beer. I'm sure as long as all my steps and technique are sound, that I'll make some good brew, but want to at least come close to the style mark, though i am not sure what that is supposed to be like in this case.

Any suggestions for yeast? Reuse 838 or pick a different strain is the basic question I'm dealing with now. I realize that this would probably entail a yeast washing step if I am to preserve my 838 colony, which so far I have avoided, by ramping up my beer from light to amber to dark with increasing gravity along the way.

Thanks for any suggestions!
TD

 

[StoneHands]

I stand by my 833 suggestion. I've only ever used two lager yeasts - 838 and 833. I started off using 838. My beers are better now with 833, but I suspect that's due mostly to process improvement rather than yeast. 833 makes a fine helles, oktoberfest, dunkel, and doppelbock - I speak from experience on all of those.

 

[TrickyDick]

I stand by my 833 suggestion. I've only ever used two lager yeasts - 838 and 833. I started off using 838. My beers are better now with 833, but I suspect that's due mostly to process improvement rather than yeast. 833 makes a fine helles, oktoberfest, dunkel, and doppelbock - I speak from experience on all of those.

Is there a dry version of 833 that you know of? I think most dry lager yeasts are 830. I haven't really looked this up recently.

I think that I may try a new lager strain when I brew the MaiBock. By that time I should have had a chance to try out the Oktoberfest and Doppelbock brews I made with the 838 and see how I like them.

I think in addition to my DMS problems, that have been addressed and I believe caused by poor boil off, that my cooling has been a problem, which I think I will have sorted out by the time I brew another lager. I think I have some crud blocking my plate chiller surface area.

thanks for the help.

TD