lager knowledge needed

[rohanski]

I have been doing all grain ales for almost a year now and would like to try a lager. I would appreciate it if some of you homebrew heads could drop some knowledge on me about some of my concerns.

1: How big of a starter should I make for 10 gallons?
2: What temp should the starter be at and how long?
3: what temp should the wort be at when pitching?
4: Will it look similar to an ale when it is fermenting and how will I know when it is done?
5: Should I rack it after it is finished fermenting?

And anything else I might have missed.

 

[Donasay]

oh wow so many questions, and so much to write, have you tried the search function.

 

[Yooper]

I only make 5 gallons, but the principles are the same, I'm sure.

As far as pitching rates, though, I'm at a loss. For 5 gallons, I usually pitch a gallon starter than I've placed in the fridge. When I go to pitch, I have the wort at 52 degrees or so, and take the starter out of the fridge while the wort is chilling. I decant the spent wort, and wait until the starter is around 48 degrees. Then, I pitch that yeast into the slightly warmer wort. (For better info, though, I suggest checking mrmalty.com- there is a pitching calculator on there!)

It's similar to an ale, except you may not see a ton of activity. Lager yeast are bottom fermenting, but I've heard that many people do get "normal" looking krausens with them.

As far as when it's done, well, it's done when it's at FG. Before that, though, you should do a diacetyl rest if you're planning on one. Actually, you should plan on one, even if it's not strictly necessary for your first lager. What I do is wait until the beer is at about 75% of its FG, and then raise the temperature to 62-66 degrees for 48 hours to clean up any diacetyl produced. Most of the time, a long enough primary even at 50 degrees will clean up the diacetyl, but it's probably better to plan on 2-3 weeks for primary, a diacetyl rest, then rack. After racking is when you can begin lagering. The temperature then should be dropped 5 degrees per day until you are at your lagering temperature. The lower the temperature, the longer you would lager. I like to lager at 34 degrees for 8-12 weeks.

I think that's about it. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

(Donasay- your post was really not particulary helpful).

 

[WortMonger]

I have been doing all grain ales for almost a year now and would like to try a lager. I would appreciate it if some of you homebrew heads could drop some knowledge on me about some of my concerns.

1: How big of a starter should I make for 10 gallons? Mrmalty.com has a great pitching calculator, but you are going to pitch more in quantity than ale yeast.
2: What temp should the starter be at and how long? Your starter isn't going to matter if you ferment at room temperature. Just be sure and let it settle and decant the beer off your starter before you pitch. If you are wanting to pitch the whole thing I would suggest fermenting it at lager temps (45-50ish).
3: what temp should the wort be at when pitching? Cold, you want your wort colder than fermentation temperature by just a little bit. You want your wort and yeast to come up to fermentation temperature to lessen any off flavors that yeasts put out. This also helps with reducing diacetyl and lessens ester production.
4: Will it look similar to an ale when it is fermenting and how will I know when it is done? It will look similar just take longer (staggered from slow yeast compared to ales). It is done when it is done, you need to take gravity samples when you think you are close. A good estimate is 7-14 days fermentation time. It takes longer which is why they are smoother and cleaner than ales.
5: Should I rack it after it is finished fermenting? I would rack it after about 3 weeks or even longer into a secondary. You want the yeast in there to clean up any off flavors that are normal in a lager fermentation.

And anything else I might have missed.

Hope this helps you out, it is basic knowledge that I myself have been gathering for my first "home system" lager.

 

[menschmaschine]

+1 on everything Wortmonger said, except for Number 5. When it's done fermenting (and diacetyl rest, if applicable), it's best to get it off the trub as soon as convenient. The beer can absorb off flavors from compounds in the yeast cake/trub if left for too long... and typical lagers are supposed to be "clean". 3 weeks won't be too bad, but I wouldn't let a lager that fermented out in 2 weeks in the primary for 4 weeks. The suspended yeast will clean everything else up in lagering. I usually have my lagers out of primary at the 2 week mark.

Lagering time is dependant on OG and how dextrinous the wort is (decoction mash, a relatively high proportion of crystal or cara-pils malt, or high saccharification temp rest = dextrinous wort). A good rule of thumb is 7 days for every 2 degrees Plato (8 points of gravity). So, a 1.048 OG lager would be lagering for 6 weeks.

 

[scinerd3000]

Lagering time is dependant on OG and how dextrinous the wort is (decoction mash, a relatively high proportion of crystal or cara-pils malt, or high saccharification temp rest = dextrinous wort). A good rule of thumb is 7 days for every 2 degrees Plato (8 points of gravity). So, a 1.048 OG lager would be lagering for 6 weeks.

this is amazingly helpful. I never knew there was a timeframe calculation for lagering however much an estimate it ends up being. Im doing my first lager also and its comforting to know this matches how long i had assumed i was going to lager for

 

[rohanski]

Sounds like way more work than ales but I have to try it. Thanks a bunch guys.

 

[balto charlie]

Hey folks: What benefits do the lager temps(32F) have on the outcome. I will only be able to get the lager temps down to 45F. People have told me that 45 is fine. I'm sure it is good enough but what might be different if I can get the temp lower. I don't want another fridge. If I can incorporate the winter temps w/ out using electric I might consider. Charlie
PS: This is some great info.

 

[menschmaschine]

Sounds like way more work than ales but I have to try it. Thanks a bunch guys.

It is a bit more work. My lager brew days are about 1-2 hours longer than my ale brew days due to my decoction mashing and wort cool-down to 45-50dF (10+ gallon batch). But I think it's rewarding. When I take a sip of that bright, clear, malty, frothy-headed Helles that took 11 weeks from grain to drink, it's all worth it. When friends and family (who don't know much about homebrewing) drink my lagers, I don't think they have any idea how much time and effort was involved. But homebrewing is it's own reward.

 

[WortMonger]

+1 on menschmaschine's recommendation about a diacetyl rest if needed. The colder than pitching temperatures like I said should eliminate the need for the rest, but in case it doesn't you need to test anyways while taking a gravity reading or something. He is also right about friends and family not really appreciating the effort it takes to make beer, lagers especially. This is why my first lager is almost ready to be brewed on my home system, and I have only helped brew two in a brewery. I'm so pumped to try them out on my pressurized system. I really need more lagering space though as I only have the fermentation freezer for now. Oh well, it is about to be the season to just roll out these Sankes and let them lager outside until it gets too cold, then back into the garage until ready to drink.:rockin:

 

[noobrich]

One major addition. You are doing a 10 gallon batch. Big starter & taste your starter before you pitch. I have lost beer from both these mistakes. BIG starters. Mine is 3-4 large mason jars. I would go bigger but I am a little short for room in my 1 gallon starter bottle. I have had a few starter's go bad. Once I wasn't sure so I pitched anyways. I threw the entire batch out. The other I had a back up starter that saved me. Also watch your starters as they begin to ferment. If they don't start well you may have a problem. Ie. slow get up and go. GET FRESH YEAST.
Hope you do not make the same mistakes I have made. By the way I have made a lot of great lagers so go for it.

 

[balto charlie]

One major addition. You are doing a 10 gallon batch. Big starter & taste your starter before you pitch. I have lost beer from both these mistakes. BIG starters. Mine is 3-4 large mason jars. I would go bigger but I am a little short for room in my 1 gallon starter bottle. I have had a few starter's go bad. Once I wasn't sure so I pitched anyways. I threw the entire batch out. The other I had a back up starter that saved me. Also watch your starters as they begin to ferment. If they don't start well you may have a problem. Ie. slow get up and go. GET FRESH YEAST.
Hope you do not make the same mistakes I have made. By the way I have made a lot of great lagers so go for it.

Yooper said to use 1 gallon. I thought there was a mistake and it should have been 1 Qt. But after you said 4 large mason jars I guess 1 gallon is not too much. BUT this will be equal to 20 % (in Yoopers brew)of the final batch. Seems like an awful lot to me. Charlie

 

[WortMonger]

Charlie, did you ask if that was slurry only or pitching the entire starter beer and all?

 

[Yooper]

Yooper said to use 1 gallon. I thought there was a mistake and it should have been 1 Qt. But after you said 4 large mason jars I guess 1 gallon is not too much. BUT this will be equal to 20 % (in Yoopers brew)of the final batch. Seems like an awful lot to me. Charlie

Yes, it's a HUGE starter. I do decant off the spent wort, though, so it's actually only about 1/4 of the gallon (or less, I'm not good with describing measurements) that is actually pure yeast. It's way more yeast that you've used in a regular ale batch, though, that's for sure. Check out mrmalty's pitching calculator to do some of your own calculations.

 

[balto charlie]

Charlie, did you ask if that was slurry only or pitching the entire starter beer and all?

I usually pitch the whole enchilada, nowhere near your amount(for ales). So you folks only pitch the slurry???

 

[balto charlie]

Yes, it's a HUGE starter. I do decant off the spent wort, though, so it's actually only about 1/4 of the gallon (or less, I'm not good with describing measurements) that is actually pure yeast. It's way more yeast that you've used in a regular ale batch, though, that's for sure. Check out mrmalty's pitching calculator to do some of your own calculations.

I will do that. Thanks. You still must pitch about 1 pint of slurry.

 

[WortMonger]

This next batch is a lager I am doing, I want 12 gallons end batch and I will be blending it to 15 gallons when done, but... I am pitching into a qt mason jar on a stir plate for a week. Then, I will brew a 2 gallon batch and dump the slurry only from my starter in for another "starter". Last I am brewing a 10 gallon batch to go on top of the 2.25 gallon batch I already have in there about a week after the 2 gallon batch. That is what I am going to do based on Mrmalty and what my vial can do.

 

[nathan]

stir plate at room temp (put a piece of foam between if plate heats wort) should take 1-2 days to ferment out a quart or two of wort. (Chill overnight in fridge to separate and decant nasty wort and pitch starter slurry.)

I can run a starter in a flask by starting with a pint of pressure canned starter wort (yeah, I make and can starter wort from extract, I'm a dork). Run from Thurs morning on. THurs night or early friday morning I add another quart of starter wort. Friday night late I put the entire flask in the fridge and I brew on Saturday, decant and pitch to 45-50F finished and aerated wort that afternoon.

Theoretically I should be able to chill it saturday morning and decant/pitch saturday afternoon but I'm always thinking I'll get the batch done fast and it won't have had enough time cold. This is ludicrous, but I have not made my brain accept that I won't get an AG batch done in under 5 hours yet.

 

[INeedANewHobby]

stir plate at room temp (put a piece of foam between if plate heats wort) should take 1-2 days to ferment out a quart or two of wort. (Chill overnight in fridge to separate and decant nasty wort and pitch starter slurry.)

You could really benefit from having your lager starters work at fermentation temps, not room temps. That is VERY well documented by all the major authors on the subject.