Lacto

[Mainer]

I'm sure this thread already exists someplace, but I couldn't find it, so... sorry in advance.

I'm planning my first sour, a Berliner Weisse that calls for a Kolsch yeast (Wyeast 2565 or WLP029) and a Lactobacillus (probably WLP 667 or Wyeast 5335)

My question is this: in order to keep the yeast fermentation dominant over the lacto, do I need to pitch the lacto a couple days after the yeast, or can I pitch them both at the same time and allow the temperature control (~60 degrees for the Kolsch) to keep the lacto in check? I've read some conflicting advice on this point.

 

[j1n]

Split the batch in half. ferment one with kolch yeast and one with lacto then blend them when they are done fermenting. you want to ferment a kolch around 60 and lacto likes warm temps.

 

[Mainer]

Split the batch in half. ferment one with kolch yeast and one with lacto then blend them when they are done fermenting. you want to ferment a kolch around 60 and lacto likes warm temps.

Interesting idea. I've never done a split fermentation.
Would you blend after primary for a brief secondary fermentation, or blend and bottle straight from primary?
Will the lacto floc out like yeast?

 

[JoshuaW]

Interesting idea. I've never done a split fermentation.
Would you blend after primary for a brief secondary fermentation, or blend and bottle straight from primary?
Will the lacto floc out like yeast?

You want to do a secondary after. The lacto will leave plenty of fermentable sugars behind, and you will get bottle bombs if you dont.

 

[j1n]

Interesting idea. I've never done a split fermentation.
Would you blend after primary for a brief secondary fermentation, or blend and bottle straight from primary?
Will the lacto floc out like yeast?

Would wait til the fermentation is completely done before bottling.... so blend them first then give it time and check for gravity changes over time to see if its stable.

lacto will floc but it takes way longer.

 

[D-Train]

What is your goal with this in terms of level of acidity? The two lacto cultures you mention are far from aggressive, especially in the presence of hops. I think you'll find that you end up with a fairly low/medium level of acidity even if you tried to maximize conditions for the lacto. Also be aware that the WL strains have developed a reputation for being contaminated with yeast of unknown origin.

 

[mabrungard]

You must fully acidify the wort for several days and then you can add the yeast.

I sour my unboiled wort with a lacto starter for a few days and then boil that soured wort. The yeast goes on the boiled and chilled wort for a normal ferment.

 

[Mainer]

What is your goal with this in terms of level of acidity? The two lacto cultures you mention are far from aggressive, especially in the presence of hops. I think you'll find that you end up with a fairly low/medium level of acidity even if you tried to maximize conditions for the lacto. Also be aware that the WL strains have developed a reputation for being contaminated with yeast of unknown origin.

I want the acidity to be present, but not overwhelming. I'm looking for an identifiable white with a solid tang to it. I'm aspiring to White Birch Brewing's Berliner Weisse, which as I understand it is pretty mild on the acidity for the style.

Basically, the last beer I made was a Baltic Porter, so I promised the missus I'd make the next one something she'd drink, too. She doesn't like high ABV and isn't crazy about dark malt or hops. So this is, y'know... something for the ladies.

 

[mabrungard]

An important fact about lactic acid, is that its sourness tends to be percieved as being 'soft'. I sour my wort down to at least 3.2 for a pleasing level of acidity. My latest batch is at 3.0. One of my club members says that if you aren't souring it to at least 3.5, you are wasting your time.

 

[Mainer]

An important fact about lactic acid, is that its sourness tends to be percieved as being 'soft'. I sour my wort down to at least 3.2 for a pleasing level of acidity. My latest batch is at 3.0. One of my club members says that if you aren't souring it to at least 3.5, you are wasting your time.

I like the idea of the split batch fermentation. I feel like that would give me more control.

 

[Mainer]

I'm not trying to clone the White Birch Berliner, but would like to end up with a similar profile. I can't find a good estimate on the pH of theirs, but the ABV is a lot bigger than I've tasted in others at around 6.4%, and the acidity seems a lot lower, so I assume they favor the yeast fermentation, sacrificing some lacto. I'd be surprised if they got it all the way down to 3.2.

 

[microbusbrewery]

6.4% is definitely huge for a Berliner. I do something similar to mabrungard, although I do all my souring post boil. I use aged hops so the IBUs are pretty close to zero, so it doesn't inhibit the lacto. Pitch the lacto (usually 5335 from Wyeast) and let it go at room temp for three to five days before pitching yeast. As for yeast, I'll usually pitch a Berliner blend like 3191 from Wyeast which has some Brett in it. With this method, you'll end up with a very sour and complex Berliner...something I really like.

+1 on anything with a pH >3.2 being a shame. My last one came in at a hair under 3.0. For those that don't like it quite that sour, just dose it with a touch of raspberry syrup when pouring. I think you're better off going a bit more sour and back sweetening with some raspberry syrup than not going sour enough and ending up with a bland wheat beer.

 

[Mainer]

6.4% is definitely huge for a Berliner. I do something similar to mabrungard, although I do all my souring post boil. I use aged hops so the IBUs are pretty close to zero, so it doesn't inhibit the lacto. Pitch the lacto (usually 5335 from Wyeast) and let it go at room temp for three to five days before pitching yeast. As for yeast, I'll usually pitch a Berliner blend like 3191 from Wyeast which has some Brett in it. With this method, you'll end up with a very sour and complex Berliner...something I really like.

+1 on anything with a pH >3.2 being a shame. My last one came in at a hair under 3.0. For those that don't like it quite that sour, just dose it with a touch of raspberry syrup when pouring. I think you're better off going a bit more sour and back sweetening with some raspberry syrup than not going sour enough and ending up with a bland wheat beer.

Maybe, but like I said, I'm mostly making this one for the missus. She enjoys a bland wheat beer.

 

[Mainer]

6.4% is definitely huge for a Berliner. I do something similar to mabrungard, although I do all my souring post boil. I use aged hops so the IBUs are pretty close to zero, so it doesn't inhibit the lacto. Pitch the lacto (usually 5335 from Wyeast) and let it go at room temp for three to five days before pitching yeast. As for yeast, I'll usually pitch a Berliner blend like 3191 from Wyeast which has some Brett in it. With this method, you'll end up with a very sour and complex Berliner...something I really like.

+1 on anything with a pH >3.2 being a shame. My last one came in at a hair under 3.0. For those that don't like it quite that sour, just dose it with a touch of raspberry syrup when pouring. I think you're better off going a bit more sour and back sweetening with some raspberry syrup than not going sour enough and ending up with a bland wheat beer.

I'd like to end up right around 5%, with a little more acidity than White Birch, but with the wheat definitely dominant. I think I might do 2.5 gal of a straight lacto primary and 2.5 gal with a straight Kolsch primary, then combine for secondary at ~60. That should give me what I want. I'm looking at probably an ounce of hops, Hallertau or Saaz, something with very low alpha that will inhibit the lacto somewhat but not too much. Is an ounce too much? Would I be better of with a half-ounce?

 

[Mainer]

(Other sites have quoted the White Birch Berliner at 6.4%, but their own site says 5.5%.)

 

[Mainer]

I pitched my Berliner yesterday. I ran about 2/3 of the wort into lacto fermentation and the other 1/3 into Kolsch yeast. I'll combine them for secondary.
My only big concern is that I don't have the ability to hold the lacto at as high a temperature as I'd like. I'd like to keep it around 80-85. I've insulated it, but am still only able to hold it at about 75. It'll be a little slow, but it'll still sour, right? The package said optimal temp is 68+. The airlock's not moving, but that's normal for a lacto fermentation, right?
The yeast carboy started slow action this morning. at 60 degrees.

 

[Mainer]

I took a taste of the lacto batch last night. and... nothing. It just tastes like wort. How advanced should fermentation be after 48 hours? I should be able to taste something, right?

 

[Sailingeric]

I took a taste of the lacto batch last night. and... nothing. It just tastes like wort. How advanced should fermentation be after 48 hours? I should be able to taste something, right?

I am doing a sour that I am doing preboil and mine has been lactoed for two weeks and I am just starting to taste some tartness. Mine is 5 gallons of wort and not a split batch. I did not ramp up the temps like I have seen some people (100+) Mine is sitting at about 75-80 degrees so I suspect that is why it is taking a little longer.

 

[Mainer]

I am doing a sour that I am doing preboil and mine has been lactoed for two weeks and I am just starting to taste some tartness. Mine is 5 gallons of wort and not a split batch. I did not ramp up the temps like I have seen some people (100+) Mine is sitting at about 75-80 degrees so I suspect that is why it is taking a little longer.

Okay, so... RAHAHB, maybe?

 

[Sailingeric]

That is what I am doing for my first attempt at a sour.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I took a taste of the lacto batch last night. and... nothing. It just tastes like wort. How advanced should fermentation be after 48 hours? I should be able to taste something, right?

Did you make a starter? I have my first berliner going right now and it tasted like lemonade after only 24 hours though I used different lacto than you did. I'd probably try posting this in the lambic/wild brewing section and see if you can get some better answers there.

 

[Mainer]

Did you make a starter? I have my first berliner going right now and it tasted like lemonade after only 24 hours though I used different lacto than you did. I'd probably try posting this in the lambic/wild brewing section and see if you can get some better answers there.

I didn't do a starter. The package said it wasn't necessary and to just do a direct pitch.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I didn't do a starter. The package said it wasn't necessary and to just do a direct pitch.

That could be at play here then. Sours aren't exactly my expertise but everything Ive read has recommended making a 1L starter for the lacto 24-48 hours ahead of brew day. Hopefully someone a bit more familiar with those lacto strains will chime in for you so you can see where you stand.

On a side note you never mentioned whether this was AG or extract. If it was AG then something to consider.... instead of going through the time and clean up of running an AG mash while your still going through the learning curve I'd try some simple extract only batches. Once you get a better feel for working with the bugs then go back to AG if you want. If I would have done this for my first 2 failed attempts I'd have saved myself a lot of time, hassle, and grain.

 

[Mainer]

That could be at play here then. Sours aren't exactly my expertise but everything Ive read has recommended making a 1L starter for the lacto 24-48 hours ahead of brew day. Hopefully someone a bit more familiar with those lacto strains will chime in for you so you can see where you stand.

On a side note you never mentioned whether this was AG or extract. If it was AG then something to consider.... instead of going through the time and clean up of running an AG mash while your still going through the learning curve I'd try some simple extract only batches. Once you get a better feel for working with the bugs then go back to AG if you want. If I would have done this for my first 2 failed attempts I'd have saved myself a lot of time, hassle, and grain.

Yeah, I'm still doing extract batches. I hope to get into AG eventually, but not yet.

 

[Mainer]

Maybe, but like I said, I'm mostly making this one for the missus. She enjoys a bland wheat beer.

Three weeks in and I took a taster with the beer thief last night. Still nothing. No acid at all to speak of. That's what I get for trying to make a sour in March in Maine without temp control.
That said, the missus tasted it too, and she liked it. Crappy bland wheat beer it is, I guess.

 

[Mainer]

So now I guess the question is this: do I abandon hope on the lacto and dry hop a few ounces to at least try and make it a better crappy wheat beer, or do I bottle it and cross my fingers til July in hopes that the lacto might wake up when the weather heats up?

 

[m00ps]

I would add some dregs from commercial sour beers

 

[Mainer]

I would add some dregs from commercial sour beers

Many commercial beers use a lacto/brett blend for souring, don't they? By cross-contaminating with brett, do I risk getting too much "funk" and not enough true sour? Does anybody really want a horse-blanket Berliner?

 

[microbusbrewery]

Some restrained Brett character is actually appropriate for a traditional Berliner. The key is restrained...it shouldn't taste or smell like goat sack.

Dregs aren't a bad idea but it's no guarantee it'll be ready by July. You could also pick up pedio from dregs. It's usually better at long term souring than lacto, but it also throws off diacetyl and you'll need Brett to clean it up.

If it were me, I'd probably let it ride until June. If at that point it's still not sour enough, supplement it by dosing it with some food grade lactic acid. It's not ideal and it'll result in a less complex beer than if it was naturally soured with lacto, but it can work. Last year I medaled with a gose that wasn't as sour as I was hoping for, so I supplemented it with a little food grade lactic acid.

 

[Mainer]

So I'm about a month in on this Berliner, and the pH literally hasn't budged. I'm worried that I screwed up the lacto by pitching it without running a starter.
Is there any downside to getting another pack of lacto, running a starter, and re-pitching? Any upside?

 

[Mainer]

(Incidentally, this is my first sour, and I've decided it's also my last. I just don't have the patience for this. With a yeast fermentation where you can see stuff happening, sure, I'm happy to wait. Even with a secondary fermentation where you know you're just developing flavor, also fine. But this rack-and-pray nonsense with no idea whether anything's going to happen, and if so whether it will take a month or a year? I don't have the stomach for that.)

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

(Incidentally, this is my first sour, and I've decided it's also my last. I just don't have the patience for this. With a yeast fermentation where you can see stuff happening, sure, I'm happy to wait. Even with a secondary fermentation where you know you're just developing flavor, also fine. But this rack-and-pray nonsense with no idea whether anything's going to happen, and if so whether it will take a month or a year? I don't have the stomach for that.)

Don't give up just yet. My first few attempts were dumpers you just have to evaluate your process and get through the learning curve. I got frustrated after dumping my first couple tries so I decided to go extract only to save time and money(if things went wrong) until I got the process for the bugs dialed. Try this out I literally just posted it a few hours ago...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7520174#post7520174

 

[Mainer]

Nah, I think I'm done souring. I don't have temp control, and in Maine, it's hard to keep ANYTHING at 70-90 degrees without temp control.
Lagers and Kosches, though, piece of cake.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Nah, I think I'm done souring. I don't have temp control, and in Maine, it's hard to keep ANYTHING at 70-90 degrees without temp control.
Lagers and Kosches, though, piece of cake.

I can certainly see your dilemma. Its not traditional but if your hankering for a pucker you could always go the lactic acid route. Ive added 1/2oz per gallon to a wit and liked the results. Sorry if I'm coming off pushy here I just hate seeing people give up on things so I'm trying to throw options at you.

 

[Mainer]

I was considering adding lactic acid as a fix for my Berliner that just won't budge on the pH. So 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch? Is that all it takes? Does my local homebrew shop likely carry it?

 

[Mainer]

Also, what about the idea of RE-pitching the lactobacillus? I did it without a starter last time, which might be what hurt me.

 

[Mainer]

Or maybe I could bottle with a pedio/brett blend. I know those will take longer to sour, but it sounds like they may better tolerate the weather here.

 

[beergolf]

Nah, I think I'm done souring. I don't have temp control, and in Maine, it's hard to keep ANYTHING at 70-90 degrees without temp control.
Lagers and Kosches, though, piece of cake.

A cooler full of water and an aquarium heater works pefectly for that. Easy. I brew saisons all winter using that set up.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I was considering adding lactic acid as a fix for my Berliner that just won't budge on the pH. So 2.5 oz for a 5 gallon batch? Is that all it takes? Does my local homebrew shop likely carry it?

You could maybe even go less, I'd just do it to taste 1/2oz or so at a time. The sourness you'll get, though clean, will be fairly one dimensional but it gets the job done. And yea most shops should have it its this stuff.... http://www.northernbrewer.com/lactic-acid-4-oz

Also, what about the idea of RE-pitching the lactobacillus? I did it without a starter last time, which might be what hurt me.

I can't speak from experience but Ive read where others have added more fresh lacto at bottling. From what Ive read it just takes a while to do its thing. For a quick turn around souring before pitching your yeast seems to get things done the fastest. In my case its been between 24-72 hours using OYL605 and a 1L starter.

Or maybe I could bottle with a pedio/brett blend. I know those will take longer to sour, but it sounds like they may better tolerate the weather here.

Now your out of my league lol....I'm sure theres still some viable options out there worth looking into though. Have you tried posting in the sours section seeing if maybe anyone has tips on getting things done in the cold? Theres a decent chance someone has been in your shoes already and figured something out to make the best of the situation. The people on this board are incredibly nifty.

 

[Mainer]

I can't speak from experience but Ive read where others have added more fresh lacto at bottling. From what Ive read it just takes a while to do its thing. For a quick turn around souring before pitching your yeast seems to get things done the fastest. In my case its been between 24-72 hours using OYL605 and a 1L starter.

Yeah. I ran for six days with just the lacto at about 70 degrees before pitching the yeast, and got no movement on the pH. After combining, three more weeks. The yeast finished up a long time ago, and still nothing on the pH.