Lacto starter advice needed

[hoppyroo]

I've pitched a vial of WLP677 - Lactobacillus Delbrueckii into a 500ml starter, and put it in my fermentation fridge at around 104F. I was expecting it to sour, but after 4 days it doesn't taste sour at all. It smells pretty funky, but when I draw off a pippet to taste, I don't get any sour flavour at all.

This is my first use, so I'm not sure what to expect. I just recall people saying to leave it "1 to 7 days", and supposedly the longer you leave it, the more sour it should be.

I'm planning to brew a Berliner Weisse on Wednesday, so I have a couple of days left...should I just leave it go? Can anyone say what they taste normally from a lacto starter?

 

[ColoHox]

Don't expect much sourness from an aerated lacto starter. The sour lactic acid is produced under anaerobic conditions. Just let the starter sit, undisturbed, until you brew.

The eventual sourness of the beer will depend on a variety of factors, but the easiest factor to control is aeration. This species of Lacto will perform best when your wort has very low aeration. Despite being homofermentative (produces only lactate), this species can still produce byproducts (acetate, CO2, ethanol) if the conditions are not appropriate.

 

[Rjppunk]

I'm considering making a lacto starter for the first time and am in the process of figuring it out. Would you heat up your water and DME in an erlinmeyer flask and allow it to cool (preventing aeration from transfer), then fill it nearly full with grains, seal with an airlock, and rest for 48 hours at 100?

 

[Kershner_Ale]

I'm considering making a lacto starter for the first time and am in the process of figuring it out. Would you heat up your water and DME in an erlinmeyer flask and allow it to cool (preventing aeration from transfer), then fill it nearly full with grains, seal with an airlock, and rest for 48 hours at 100?

Yes, that'll get you started just fine.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[Calder]

As you noted it can take 7 days, sometimes even longer. It probably hasn't started yet. This is the lag phase while it gets used to the environment. Once it starts, it may only take 24 hours to become fully soured.

I don't believe aeration makes much difference. However I do minimize O2 in mine, but don't sweat it.

Why make a starter? Once it starts, the lacto population doubles in less than an hour. The difference in time to sour a quart and a 5 gallon batch with the same pitch is probably only a few hours. The way you have done it, you will take 7 days to sour the starter, then an additional 7 days to sour the main batch as the process starts all over again.

 

[tagz]

As you noted it can take 7 days, sometimes even longer. It probably hasn't started yet. This is the lag phase while it gets used to the environment. Once it starts, it may only take 24 hours to become fully soured.



I don't believe aeration makes much difference. However I do minimize O2 in mine, but don't sweat it.



Why make a starter? Once it starts, the lacto population doubles in less than an hour. The difference in time to sour a quart and a 5 gallon batch with the same pitch is probably only a few hours. The way you have done it, you will take 7 days to sour the starter, then an additional 7 days to sour the main batch as the process starts all over again.

That's good to know. So pitch rate is not a factor with lacto?

 

[Rjppunk]

Stir plate on the starter?

 

[Calder]

That's good to know. So pitch rate is not a factor with lacto?

It shouldn't be. In ideal circumstances, once the lacto gets going, it will double it's population every 20 minutes. I figure wort is not 'perfect', and our temps probably are off; we might double in an hour. It is the lag phase that can take a long time.

 

[ColoHox]

I don't believe aeration makes much difference. However I do minimize O2 in mine, but don't sweat it.

Why minimize it if it doesn't make a difference? As a facultative anaerobic bacteria, Lactobacillus prefers to grow in little to no oxygen. A little change, like aeration, can really affect the flavor profile the bacteria produce. If you've always done it one way, might as well keep at it to make the same beers.

That's good to know. So pitch rate is not a factor with lacto?

Not really. And, an increased cell growth rate is associated with increased sourness. So, a small pitch into the right conditions is the best way to get reliable souring.

IME, changes in the fermentation process have a greater affect on the eventual flavor profile in bacterial-fermented beers compared to yeast-fermented beers.

 

[TNGabe]

The strain you are using is the problem. WLP677 has a bad reputation for not producing much acid. It's probably too late for you to pick up the wyeast strain, but for your next go around it's much better.

I can't find the page, but I do remember reading in American Sours that aeration doesn't really make a difference for bacteria in starters, rather than having a negative effect as I'd previuosly thought and as stated above.

 

[Rjppunk]

I've read elsewhere to use white labs lacto because of the poor quality of wyeast lacto. Which is it? Does anyone have data or do I need to compare forum post opinions?

 

[ColoHox]

I've read elsewhere to use white labs lacto because of the poor quality of wyeast lacto. Which is it? Does anyone have data or do I need to compare forum post opinions?

Sorry, this might be TMI, but anyway. Part of the problem here is that people use these strains incorrectly, then complain about their results. You have to know what to expect.

Give the bacteria the right conditions, and either source will work fine. I'm not trying to be difficult, the ferm conditions (like aeration and temperature) have a huge impact. The best approach is to try it and decide for yourself.

Also, there are multiple species of Lactobacillus and each one is wildly different from the next. WLP677 is L. delbrueckii, which requires an anaerobic environment, makes primarily lactic acid, and is capable of fermenting complex sugars. Wyeast 5335 is L. buchneri, which is also anaerobic, but produces lactic acid, acetic acid, and CO2, and ethanol, and is incapable of fermenting higher sugars. This strain is also more sensitive to pH and slower growing than L. delbrueckii. There is also WLP672, which is L. brevis. This strain prefers higher oxygen concentrations and has higher resistance to antimicrobial hop compounds compared to other Lacto.

You could always get a few and mix, do a side-by-side, or whatever. Clearly, it's not enough to say "the lacto from this vendor wasn't good."

 

[Rjppunk]

That's the amount of info I like to hear. Thanks!!

 

[hoppyroo]

As you noted it can take 7 days, sometimes even longer. It probably hasn't started yet. This is the lag phase while it gets used to the environment. Once it starts, it may only take 24 hours to become fully soured.

I don't believe aeration makes much difference. However I do minimize O2 in mine, but don't sweat it.

Why make a starter? Once it starts, the lacto population doubles in less than an hour. The difference in time to sour a quart and a 5 gallon batch with the same pitch is probably only a few hours. The way you have done it, you will take 7 days to sour the starter, then an additional 7 days to sour the main batch as the process starts all over again.

Thanks...I pitched it onto my 1028 OG Berliner Weisse wort, along with some Mangrove Jacks Workhorse yeast. It went from 1026 to 1010 in under 24 hours. Now 3 days in it's 1009, tasting a tad tart, but not sour at all. I'm heading off on vacation for a week, so will leave it sit and see how it is when I get back. I don't need this in the keg for another 3 weeks so there's no hurry.

 

[hoppyroo]

Stir plate on the starter?

No, not for my lacto starter.

 

[hoppyroo]

The strain you are using is the problem. WLP677 has a bad reputation for not producing much acid. It's probably too late for you to pick up the wyeast strain, but for your next go around it's much better.

I can't find the page, but I do remember reading in American Sours that aeration doesn't really make a difference for bacteria in starters, rather than having a negative effect as I'd previuosly thought and as stated above.

Ok, cheers. I was (basically) following the recipe in Brewing Classic Styles, although I realise that's getting a bit old these days. That recipe doesn't even mention making a starter with the 677, rather just pitching it straight from the vial. But the reading I did before hand seemed to suggest everyone was doing from 1 to 4 quart starters.

I didn't know about the "no o2" thing, so did an occassionally shake/swirl on my lacto starter, as I do for my liquid yeast starters, although not as often or vigorously admittedly. Perhaps I should have just let it go.

Anyway, I assume my wort is at the very least "infected" with lacto now, so we'll see how it goes. Thanks to all who've replied.

 

[Calder]

Thanks...I pitched it onto my 1028 OG Berliner Weisse wort, along with some Mangrove Jacks Workhorse yeast. It went from 1026 to 1010 in under 24 hours. Now 3 days in it's 1009, tasting a tad tart, but not sour at all. I'm heading off on vacation for a week, so will leave it sit and see how it is when I get back. I don't need this in the keg for another 3 weeks so there's no hurry.

If it is not sour now, it will not be in 3 weeks. To get a quick turn-around on a BW you need to complete souring before pitching the yeast. Alcohol slows, and can even halt, lacto activity.

 

[hoppyroo]

If it is not sour now, it will not be in 3 weeks. To get a quick turn-around on a BW you need to complete souring before pitching the yeast. Alcohol slows, and can even halt, lacto activity.

Interesting, thanks. If that's the case though, why does it seem to be widely accepted that sour beers become more sour over time? If lacto activity is slowed or halted by alcohol, how does barrel ageing work for example?

 

[vagabondat02]

The long/slow souring process is the result of pediococcus, which is much more alcohol and hop tolerant than lacto. The permeability of oak allows a small amount of oxygen into the wort over time, which helps the pedio produce acid.