Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[Barley_Bob]

I can't get over the mouthfeel of this beer. I'm really going to try to replicate that in all of my future brews. Not that I'm sure I'll be successful, but it's just damn impressive.

 

[bhchrist]

I agree on the mouthfeel. With such a simple recipe, every ingredient really contributes something to the final product. The oats in particular with the mouthfeel.

On a related note, I have started replacing carapils with either flaked barley, oats, or rye, recipe dependent, in all my beers, especially session strength brews that can often come across as thin.

 

[unionrdr]

I stopped using carapils altogether. Some of the other malts, like caramel malts & some others do the job quite well, even after additions to the boil, like Whirlfloc. Anyway, I agree about the ingredients all adding a lil sumpthin' sumpthin(!) to the beer. They'll go out this weekend, hopefully. I've had 4 bottles left in the fridge conditioning for nearly 2 weeks. This beer definitely needs lagering time.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I agree on the mouthfeel. With such a simple recipe, every ingredient really contributes something to the final product. The oats in particular with the mouthfeel.

On a related note, I have started replacing carapils with either flaked barley, oats, or rye, recipe dependent, in all my beers, especially session strength brews that can often come across as thin.

Me too. I use either rye, red what, or oats in almost everything. I don't go for the flaked barley... I like the flavor contributions of the other three. I think the low carbonation is making a really big difference, but I'm wondering too if the honey has an impact.

 

[unionrdr]

Oddly enough, the honey & molasses did until I carbed it? Now it really needs lagering time. Need to experiment at this point with how long to lager in bottles in the fridge? Need to get that dry finish back.

 

[bhchrist]

Honey and molasses added this morning and I am starting my 5 day ramp up to 70. I did decide to add it to just one carboy. Given that the batch was split between two carboys, I am thinking about what I would like to do with the yeast. I will probably do another Kotty. This may be the time to funk it up and pitch a smack pack of Roeselare and some Bruery dregs.

 

[unionrdr]

One site I read up on about the beer did try to claim it was a sour & everybody's missing that point. But I think he's mistaking that very dry/hint of sweetness finish for souring. I can understand how somebody could get that out of slightly sweet/dry.Gotta look through my boxes today.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Got a bottle of Kottbusser in the mail from @Unionrdr! I think I'll give it a try in a side by side tomorrow, and send my last bottle out on Monday.

 

[unionrdr]

Cool! Looking forward to some pics & description in comparison! I still have three or four bottles left in the fridge from 4/13 lagering away. I'm going to have to put more in the fridge today. Glad the bottle got to you in good shape. I found that Walmart has those 11x7x7 inch boxes for 58c each. Just the right size for shipping single 12oz bottles. Me thinks this is a great opportunity to use my new camera/tripod to do videos again?...

 

[unionrdr]

Got a bottle of kottbusser delivered today from Barley_Bob. It's going in the fridge till this weekend for comparisons at that time...

 

[unionrdr]

Well, I had 2/3's of a page in my 2nd home brewing book turn into one big hyperlink?! So, this morning, I set about re-writing it. Looking back through Hr. Hermbstatd's recipe, which was one I researched for the beer, I found a DOH! moment. I'd added the honey & molasses in secondary, contrary to what he did. He wrote that the mash started at 113F, then a 2nd infusion of the same amount of boiling water, mashing one hour. Ok, then cover the mash tun & allow 30 minutes rest before drawing off the wort. * Maybe add this rest to my recipe?* It was then boiled down to 2,290 Liters. *This is where I went wrong, adding the honey & molasses to secondary.* After the raw sugar & honey were dissolved into the wort, it was filtered through straw.
So those of you that added the honey & molasses @ flame out were following how Hr. Hermbstatd's experiments duplicated the beer, for which no original recipe was left. I feel, at this juncture, that I must concede this point. The FG sample tasted dry, with a hint of sweetness the beer was said to have. Then secondary with the honey & molasses turned it to more like a saison. Lesson learned there, as it seems adding the two @ flame out seems likely to preserve the dry , hint of sweetness finish. Gotta brew this one again.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Did you ever try my Kottbusser? I still have yours in the fridge... I keep waiting for a day where I'm not too overly tired or distracted to enjoy it. Maybe Sunday?

 

[myerstyson]

So those of you that added the honey & molasses @ flame out were following how Hr. Hermbstatd's experiments duplicated the beer, for which no original recipe was left. I feel, at this juncture, that I must concede this point. The FG sample tasted dry, with a hint of sweetness the beer was said to have. Then secondary with the honey & molasses turned it to more like a saison. Lesson learned there, as it seems adding the two @ flame out seems likely to preserve the dry , hint of sweetness finish. Gotta brew this one again.

I'm brewing mine again for an Oktoberfest the club is doing. It certainly did have a hint of sweetness in the finish that I loved.

 

[unionrdr]

Did you ever try my Kottbusser? I still have yours in the fridge... I keep waiting for a day where I'm not too overly tired or distracted to enjoy it. Maybe Sunday?

I have to leave at 9:30 to help my older son & his fiance move to their new digs. I'll be driving the truck. Maybe do a video tomorrow?

I'm brewing mine again for an Oktoberfest the club is doing. It certainly did have a hint of sweetness in the finish that I loved.

Next time, I'll be adding the honey & molasses @ flame out, like Hr Hermstadt did. I may add the rest too? I have high hopes that this next one will nail it with the two process changes? It seems quite fitting for an Octoberfest party! Or maybe even that German beer competition that was advertised on here last year?

 

[bhchrist]

I am nearing the end of my lagering phase of my second batch. It will be interesting to note the difference in adding the honey and molasses to the fermentor vs. the flameout addition I did last time. I will check back in with my results.

 

[Bosh]

Thinking of doing a pseudo-Kottbusser with Danstar Belle Saison yeast since the weather's too hot for a proper Kottbusser and SHWBO wants a wheat beer and this has a good bit of wheat in it and I personally love what oats do to beer. Thinking of adding in some melanoidin malt to balance out how dry Belle Saison gets.

The yeast flavors will be utterly and completely off but they're both farmhouse styles so I think some overlap is possible.

 

[unionrdr]

The very dry finish is a hallmark of the kottbusser style, with a hint of sweetness with it. So that should be ok.

 

[Bosh]

The very dry finish is a hallmark of the kottbusser style, with a hint of sweetness with it. So that should be ok.

Well if there's anything the Danstar Belle Saison yeast can do it's provide a dry finish, thing is a freaking monster. Too many phenols and esters of course but oh well.

Thinking about upping the wheat percentage a bit to give the kind of bready taste that SWMBO likes.

 

[unionrdr]

Not sure about the extra wheat. A very dry wheat might not work? Wheat ales usually have a little bit of natural, grainy sweetness to them.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I think it's worth a try. Crossover styles are a lot of fun. I've used really high percentages of wheat in IPAs with great results, so I think you could do it safely (particularly when using a high attenuating yeast).

At some point, I guarantee you European farmers were doing their own kitchen sink versions of their brews.

 

[myerstyson]

I'm making another batch of Kottbusser for our club's O'fest. This time I'm going to carb with honey.

 

[unionrdr]

When I get my computer fixed again, I'll do a comparison video between mine & barley_bob's versions. Damn hackers...

 

[Psylocide]

When I get my computer fixed again, I'll do a comparison video between mine & barley_bob's versions. Damn hackers...

Most likely not hackers... probably all those, uh... sites loaded with malware.

 

[unionrdr]

There are only a couple sites I go to every day...no sex sites. Darn google galaxy download started it all.

 

[ceannt]

From an article I wrote a while back, with my recipe.

Kötbußer:

From the town of Kötbuß in eastern Prussia, this beer is simply amazing. Kötbuß is the cultural center of the Sorbian people, and it is unknown if this is an ancient Sorb beer, or was brought to the area by Germanic settlers at some point in the past (or is a mingling of the two brewing traditions). It is a crying shame that this beer was outlawed due to the ingredients, because it is superb. It has many of the characteristics of a modern German wheat beer, but has a creaminess from the oats, and a complexity that has totally ruined my appreciation for the modern German wheat beers. It also lacks the clove and bubblegum notes of the modern wheat beers, and to me that is a plus. This would be a good one for some American Craft Brewery to offer... hint, hint.
SUMMARY

(Original Gravity) O.G. = 1.070
(Final Gravity) F.G. = 1.017
(Bitterness) IBU = 31
(Color) SRM = 7
(Alcohol) APV = 6.8%
Calories per 12-oz bottle = 226

For a five gallon batch:
Grain: Sugars:
Pounds: Type: Pounds: Type:

7 Pilsner Malt 0.25 molasses

4 Red Wheat Malt 0.25 honey

0.8125 Oatmeal

0.5 Munich Malt


Hops:
Variety: Oz.: Boil time:

Spalt 1 120

Saaz 0.5 60

Spalt 1 5

Saaz 0.5 5


A decoction mash is traditional, and so is a two hour boil. Apparently two versions of this beer were made, a low gravity, session beer, without the Munich Malt, and half the molasses and honey, and a stronger “fest beer” version, such as I have represented.
I don’t believe that a protein rest is necessary with modern malts, so I recommend a single decoction to mash out, after an hour long, single infusion mash at 152 degrees. Calculate your sparge volumes to render enough volume for a two hour boil.
Alt yeast such as K97 is most appropriate.

 

[unionrdr]

An alt yeast was suggested in some articles I read, since it is sort of the grandfather of modern alt as I understood their meanings. But most use the WL029 yeast, as it's closer to the old dual-purpose yeasts they had some 500 years ago.

 

[unionrdr]

Since I got my desktop computer fixed & found all my book files, I'm back to work on book 2 of my home brewing series. I just wanted to remind you folks brewing this beer that if you want your recipe included in the book, to send me a bottle to compare against mine & others, along with the recipe in a PM or something. Some different examples would prove interesting to figuring out which one seems closer to the original, or which is best at the very least. Maybe in trade for a link-back to your blog or something?

 

[Barley_Bob]

I'm trying the beers @unionrdr and I made side by side right now (finally). And wow. No one would confuse these beers. More notes to come.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Appearance - Extremely similar. Both slightly hazy and straw colored, with a persistent, sticky, white head. Mine is slightly more amber in color and leaves slightly more lacing on the glass.

Smell - unionrdr's is tart upfront and slightly grainy. It smells like an intentional lacto introduction took place. Mine smells way more hoppy (German noble hops) (but not melt your face off), it smells more grainy, and there's maybe a slight sulfur?

Feel - unionrdr's is very light, but with plenty of body. Slight prickle on the tongue. Mine is also very light, also with plenty of body, and more round feeling than prickly.

Taste - unionrdr's really surprises me. Grainy, slightly sweet, not very hoppy, but here's what gets me - that lacto tartness turns into clove and slight bananna in my mouth. Is this the honey and molasses? Did they really give your that much phenol-esque flavor? It's very unique. Slight sweet on the back end. Mine is less of a surprise. It's similarly grainy, but with quite a bit of hop flavor and spiciness from the rye. It has an interesting sweetness from the honey and molasses, but nothing like unionrdr's. No taste of sulfur.

Both beers are really good, but really different. I did deviate from the Radical Brewing, but not wildly. And we have really different beers. I think the difference is the honey and molasses. We must have used really different grades and brands.

 

[unionrdr]

Wow. Your taste descriptions beat heck out of mine. My recipe is a compilation of what descriptions I could find. I used .6oz Value Time "unsulphured" Golden molasses & 1.3oz Gunter's Clover honey in secondary. I couldn't make up my mind on when to add them. Odd that it had that dry finish moreso before secondary as after. I also used 4ozs acidulated malt in the mash, feeling that this might give that bit of tartness that some mistook for souring. I used .65oz magnum for bittering & 1oz saaz @ 3 minutes. German halertau @ 3 minutes as well. Maybe need to bump the hops to 8 or 10 minutes? Or maybe dig some more & find out what hops were used around Cottbus at the time? Being close to the Western border of Poland, & the NW border of the Czech republic, saaz was a logical choice. But the right one? Maybe some Polish hops, or Serbian?
I also used 3lbs of German wheat malt, feeling I should keep things as German-originated as possible, save for the hops. I'm sure it's also responsible for the slight mistiness? So I do think the combination of secondarying the honey & molasses worked some kind of magic with the acidulated malt & the WL029 yeast to give the qualities mentioned.
I also made a starter with the remaining .17lb of pilsner LME ( jugs are like 3.15lbs) in 800ml spring water. Yeast tube was added @ 85.1F. That was on 2/2/15,cold crashed 2/5/15. Brew day was 2/10/15 & grains crushed @ .039". Mashed 7.5lbs grains, oats, rice hulls in 2 1/4 gallons spring water @ 154F one hour. Dunk sparged 10 minutes @ 168F. Same as sachrification rest of 7 minutes BS2 called for? Yeast decanted to about 200ml, pitched into 62.5F wort. Fermentation started @ 64F, one degree below WL029's sweet spot. * Yeast was about half-frozen by the time ingredients shipment got here, so maybe starter helped? The weather was so cold, I had to fire of the kerosene heater to bring ambient temps up. Took a couple days to get internal primary temp to about 68F, maybe 68.5F? I think this combination of things accounts for the flavors, etc?

 

[myerstyson]

Since I got my desktop computer fixed & found all my book files, I'm back to work on book 2 of my home brewing series. I just wanted to remind you folks brewing this beer that if you want your recipe included in the book, to send me a bottle to compare against mine & others, along with the recipe in a PM or something. Some different examples would prove interesting to figuring out which one seems closer to the original, or which is best at the very least. Maybe in trade for a link-back to your blog or something?

Damn. Would love to, but I'm overseas now so can't mail out any liquids.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Wow. Your taste descriptions beat heck out of mine. My recipe is a compilation of what descriptions I could find. I used .6oz Value Time "unsulphured" Golden molasses & 1.3oz Gunter's Clover honey in secondary. I couldn't make up my mind on when to add them. Odd that it had that dry finish moreso before secondary as after. I also used 4ozs acidulated malt in the mash, feeling that this might give that bit of tartness that some mistook for souring. I used .65oz magnum for bittering & 1oz saaz @ 3 minutes. German halertau @ 3 minutes as well. Maybe need to bump the hops to 8 or 10 minutes? Or maybe dig some more & find out what hops were used around Cottbus at the time? Being close to the Western border of Poland, & the NW border of the Czech republic, saaz was a logical choice. But the right one? Maybe some Polish hops, or Serbian?
I also used 3lbs of German wheat malt, feeling I should keep things as German-originated as possible, save for the hops. I'm sure it's also responsible for the slight mistiness? So I do think the combination of secondarying the honey & molasses worked some kind of magic with the acidulated malt & the WL029 yeast to give the qualities mentioned.
I also made a starter with the remaining .17lb of pilsner LME ( jugs are like 3.15lbs) in 800ml spring water. Yeast tube was added @ 85.1F. That was on 2/2/15,cold crashed 2/5/15. Brew day was 2/10/15 & grains crushed @ .039". Mashed 7.5lbs grains, oats, rice hulls in 2 1/4 gallons spring water @ 154F one hour. Dunk sparged 10 minutes @ 168F. Same as sachrification rest of 7 minutes BS2 called for? Yeast decanted to about 200ml, pitched into 62.5F wort. Fermentation started @ 64F, one degree below WL029's sweet spot. * Yeast was about half-frozen by the time ingredients shipment got here, so maybe starter helped? The weather was so cold, I had to fire of the kerosene heater to bring ambient temps up. Took a couple days to get internal primary temp to about 68F, maybe 68.5F? I think this combination of things accounts for the flavors, etc?

I also added my honey and molasses to secondary, and I agree the mistiness is from the wheat.

I think the unique flavors in yours must be the combination of the acid malt with the honey and molasses. I guess you'll have to try it again to be sure, but that's the only area we really differed. I also fermented mine fairly cool, which is where I think I got that little whiff of sulfur.

Again, I thought they were both really good. I think it would be really fun to try more versions to see how widely they vary. Definitely a style deserving of revival.

 

[unionrdr]

Agreed. It's definitely an interesting beer. I was thinking of adding the molasses & honey @ flame out next time, just to do a comparison. That, or do it the same way, but try to keep temps more stable & within range of the yeast's sweet spot. You're probably right about the interaction of the acidulated malt, honey & molasses. I just wondered if it'd keep that dry finish if I added the honey & molasses @ flame out? Since it's been cloudy & raining every day here, I haven't had enough light in the brewery to do the video comparison. I'll get to it as soon as I can. Looking forward to it.

 

[beergolf]

Since it's been cloudy & raining every day here, I haven't had enough light in the brewery to do the video comparison. I'll get to it as soon as I can. Looking forward to it.

It is the 21st century and they make these newfangled thigs called lights. They are powered by something called electricity..

 

[unionrdr]

When fil died, they wouldn't let me have his umbrella light set-up. Only have the desk lamp with one of those twist florescent in it. Not quite enough for the Powershot...

 

[bhchrist]

I am a bit late on this, but my second run at the Kottbusser was interesting. As I mentioned before, I split my wort into two 5 gallon fermentors rather than a single 6 gallon after having some aggressive fermentation clean up with the WLP029 yeast last time. I also had forgotten to add the honey+molasses at flameout so I added it to one of the fermentors a few days in.

Same routine, held temp low, in the 60-62 range and then ramped up slowly to 70 and slowly back down to 34 for a one month lager.

The carboy I added the sugars to? Crystal clear and into the keg. The one I left alone? my first (that I know of) infection in 6 years, as I have a nicely weaved pellicle formed on top.

So, the Kotty on keg has a bit higher honey and molasses percentage that the target, but it still tastes fantastic. Even with the wheat and oats, extremely clear. If that is what you want, patience with the process and longer cold conditioning seems to work like a charm.

As to the buggy batch? I have wanted to sour/funk up a batch of this anyway, so I have kept it. I will be checking aroma and taking a sample this weekend. I figure I have a 1 in 20 chance at best of this being a happy accident and letting the bugs do their thing over the next 6 months with periodic checks. Likely, it will be pitched.

All in all, this second batch has solidified in my mind that Kottbusser is now my house beer.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been keeping mine in covered boxes under my bottling table the whole time since February. The bottles I've had in the fridge sat there for weeks. The last one I drank a couple days ago had smoothed out a little bit, a hair more like some kind of slightly tart lager. I still have Bob's & one of my bottles of it in the fridge since before his got here. So they've been lagering a good while. Unfortunately, our reunion on the 18th of this month used up the new set of 4 AA batteries I installed in the powershot on that evening. You guys were right, this thing is a battery hog, even without using the fold-out view screen! So no pics till we get paid this Friday. Also, my brewery/man cave being in front with a southern exposer, the videos have to be shot on a bright day by noon or so for best lighting. Oh darn. I've been climbing the walls to taste compare mine & Bob's. Maybe Friday morning? No more videos in front of the computer either...gonna change it up a bit. Maybe even in the shade of the backyard, which faces north?

 

[bhchrist]

Batch 3 is in the fermentor. After going to the Great Taste of the Midwest Saturday (out of 1000+ beers, no Kotty), I was inspired to brew my third batch yesterday. That, and I kicked the small, 2 gallons I had.

I made a starter last week and had moved it to the fridge. I decanted the DME wort and took 1000mL of the Kotty work, boiled for 10 min, cooled to 70, and pitched into the warmed yeast on a stir plate while the batch was boiling. Worked like a charm. Krausen on the starter after about 30-45 minutes. I even a decanted a small mason jar's worth of the starter prior to pitching to use for my next batch using 029.

The pellicle on the infected half of Batch 2 is doing all sorts of interesting, bubbly things, and I have yet to brave taking a sample to determine drinkability vs. dumpability. I will try to snap a couple of pictures if anyone is interested.

Any other rebrews from you gentlemen? I should be kegging in 6 weeks and ready to bottle in October if there is still interest in some swaps.

 

[unionrdr]

I really don't have much in the way of temp control. So when it cools off, I'm going to brew it again, if for nothing else, comparison's sake.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I don't know when I'll brew one again... Maybe this fall sometime. I want to do a Weizenbock next, and then maybe kottbusser after? I am busy with work, and that's slowing my brewing quite a bit. Whenever I do it, it'll be an American crossover.