Kottbusser - A style deserving of revival!

[myerstyson]

Since I got my desktop computer fixed & found all my book files, I'm back to work on book 2 of my home brewing series. I just wanted to remind you folks brewing this beer that if you want your recipe included in the book, to send me a bottle to compare against mine & others, along with the recipe in a PM or something. Some different examples would prove interesting to figuring out which one seems closer to the original, or which is best at the very least. Maybe in trade for a link-back to your blog or something?

Damn. Would love to, but I'm overseas now so can't mail out any liquids.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Wow. Your taste descriptions beat heck out of mine. My recipe is a compilation of what descriptions I could find. I used .6oz Value Time "unsulphured" Golden molasses & 1.3oz Gunter's Clover honey in secondary. I couldn't make up my mind on when to add them. Odd that it had that dry finish moreso before secondary as after. I also used 4ozs acidulated malt in the mash, feeling that this might give that bit of tartness that some mistook for souring. I used .65oz magnum for bittering & 1oz saaz @ 3 minutes. German halertau @ 3 minutes as well. Maybe need to bump the hops to 8 or 10 minutes? Or maybe dig some more & find out what hops were used around Cottbus at the time? Being close to the Western border of Poland, & the NW border of the Czech republic, saaz was a logical choice. But the right one? Maybe some Polish hops, or Serbian?
I also used 3lbs of German wheat malt, feeling I should keep things as German-originated as possible, save for the hops. I'm sure it's also responsible for the slight mistiness? So I do think the combination of secondarying the honey & molasses worked some kind of magic with the acidulated malt & the WL029 yeast to give the qualities mentioned.
I also made a starter with the remaining .17lb of pilsner LME ( jugs are like 3.15lbs) in 800ml spring water. Yeast tube was added @ 85.1F. That was on 2/2/15,cold crashed 2/5/15. Brew day was 2/10/15 & grains crushed @ .039". Mashed 7.5lbs grains, oats, rice hulls in 2 1/4 gallons spring water @ 154F one hour. Dunk sparged 10 minutes @ 168F. Same as sachrification rest of 7 minutes BS2 called for? Yeast decanted to about 200ml, pitched into 62.5F wort. Fermentation started @ 64F, one degree below WL029's sweet spot. * Yeast was about half-frozen by the time ingredients shipment got here, so maybe starter helped? The weather was so cold, I had to fire of the kerosene heater to bring ambient temps up. Took a couple days to get internal primary temp to about 68F, maybe 68.5F? I think this combination of things accounts for the flavors, etc?

I also added my honey and molasses to secondary, and I agree the mistiness is from the wheat.

I think the unique flavors in yours must be the combination of the acid malt with the honey and molasses. I guess you'll have to try it again to be sure, but that's the only area we really differed. I also fermented mine fairly cool, which is where I think I got that little whiff of sulfur.

Again, I thought they were both really good. I think it would be really fun to try more versions to see how widely they vary. Definitely a style deserving of revival.

 

[unionrdr]

Agreed. It's definitely an interesting beer. I was thinking of adding the molasses & honey @ flame out next time, just to do a comparison. That, or do it the same way, but try to keep temps more stable & within range of the yeast's sweet spot. You're probably right about the interaction of the acidulated malt, honey & molasses. I just wondered if it'd keep that dry finish if I added the honey & molasses @ flame out? Since it's been cloudy & raining every day here, I haven't had enough light in the brewery to do the video comparison. I'll get to it as soon as I can. Looking forward to it.

 

[beergolf]

Since it's been cloudy & raining every day here, I haven't had enough light in the brewery to do the video comparison. I'll get to it as soon as I can. Looking forward to it.

It is the 21st century and they make these newfangled thigs called lights. They are powered by something called electricity..

 

[unionrdr]

When fil died, they wouldn't let me have his umbrella light set-up. Only have the desk lamp with one of those twist florescent in it. Not quite enough for the Powershot...

 

[bhchrist]

I am a bit late on this, but my second run at the Kottbusser was interesting. As I mentioned before, I split my wort into two 5 gallon fermentors rather than a single 6 gallon after having some aggressive fermentation clean up with the WLP029 yeast last time. I also had forgotten to add the honey+molasses at flameout so I added it to one of the fermentors a few days in.

Same routine, held temp low, in the 60-62 range and then ramped up slowly to 70 and slowly back down to 34 for a one month lager.

The carboy I added the sugars to? Crystal clear and into the keg. The one I left alone? my first (that I know of) infection in 6 years, as I have a nicely weaved pellicle formed on top.

So, the Kotty on keg has a bit higher honey and molasses percentage that the target, but it still tastes fantastic. Even with the wheat and oats, extremely clear. If that is what you want, patience with the process and longer cold conditioning seems to work like a charm.

As to the buggy batch? I have wanted to sour/funk up a batch of this anyway, so I have kept it. I will be checking aroma and taking a sample this weekend. I figure I have a 1 in 20 chance at best of this being a happy accident and letting the bugs do their thing over the next 6 months with periodic checks. Likely, it will be pitched.

All in all, this second batch has solidified in my mind that Kottbusser is now my house beer.

 

[unionrdr]

I've been keeping mine in covered boxes under my bottling table the whole time since February. The bottles I've had in the fridge sat there for weeks. The last one I drank a couple days ago had smoothed out a little bit, a hair more like some kind of slightly tart lager. I still have Bob's & one of my bottles of it in the fridge since before his got here. So they've been lagering a good while. Unfortunately, our reunion on the 18th of this month used up the new set of 4 AA batteries I installed in the powershot on that evening. You guys were right, this thing is a battery hog, even without using the fold-out view screen! So no pics till we get paid this Friday. Also, my brewery/man cave being in front with a southern exposer, the videos have to be shot on a bright day by noon or so for best lighting. Oh darn. I've been climbing the walls to taste compare mine & Bob's. Maybe Friday morning? No more videos in front of the computer either...gonna change it up a bit. Maybe even in the shade of the backyard, which faces north?

 

[bhchrist]

Batch 3 is in the fermentor. After going to the Great Taste of the Midwest Saturday (out of 1000+ beers, no Kotty), I was inspired to brew my third batch yesterday. That, and I kicked the small, 2 gallons I had.

I made a starter last week and had moved it to the fridge. I decanted the DME wort and took 1000mL of the Kotty work, boiled for 10 min, cooled to 70, and pitched into the warmed yeast on a stir plate while the batch was boiling. Worked like a charm. Krausen on the starter after about 30-45 minutes. I even a decanted a small mason jar's worth of the starter prior to pitching to use for my next batch using 029.

The pellicle on the infected half of Batch 2 is doing all sorts of interesting, bubbly things, and I have yet to brave taking a sample to determine drinkability vs. dumpability. I will try to snap a couple of pictures if anyone is interested.

Any other rebrews from you gentlemen? I should be kegging in 6 weeks and ready to bottle in October if there is still interest in some swaps.

 

[unionrdr]

I really don't have much in the way of temp control. So when it cools off, I'm going to brew it again, if for nothing else, comparison's sake.

 

[Barley_Bob]

I don't know when I'll brew one again... Maybe this fall sometime. I want to do a Weizenbock next, and then maybe kottbusser after? I am busy with work, and that's slowing my brewing quite a bit. Whenever I do it, it'll be an American crossover.

 

[unionrdr]

I have more left of the first batch for some trades. Gotta get the barleywine version of my Burton ale going soon too. And the Cooper's English bitter so I can use a gallon of it for malt vinegar. Maybe re-brew next month?

 

[bhchrist]

Kottbusser went boom!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1439342070.701447.jpg

 

[Barley_Bob]

Haha, woops!

 

[unionrdr]

Thar she blows! Die, die, die dam ye blasted carboy!...

 

[bhchrist]

I checked it yesterday morning and all was good. The yeast blowoff was so thick, that it was all contained on the top slope of the carboy. The carboy stopper was found in the exact location as in the photo. Some clothes soaked in StarSan made for easy clean-up. I should have known with 5.5 gallons of wort and 029 yeast that this would happen. I added some anti-foam drops last night, soaked a new stopper in StartSan along with the freshly cut and soaked end of the blow off tube, and all looked good this morning.

That was at 60 degrees.

 

[ceannt]

That would be why I switched to a half inch blow off tube....
My sysmpathies

 

[myerstyson]

Just made another Kottbusser this weekend. Upped some of the DME and this one I'll carbonate with honey.

 

[Gerry_P]

I'm too lazy to look through the whole thread to answer this question myself, but has anybody mentioned Pattinson's recipe for 1850 Kotbusser? I can share if anyone's interested.

 

[unionrdr]

I have to look through my research files to see which recipes I took an average of. Go ahead & post it Gerry. I'm sure we'd all like to see it!

 

[Gerry_P]

Here ya go!

1850 Kotbusser from Pattinson's "The Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer", which I recommend buying if you're interested in historic beer recipes.

Ingredients for 5 gallons:

7.5 lbs. Pils malt
4 lbs. pale wheat malt
1 lb. oats
.10 lb. honey
.10 lb. sugar

1 oz. Spalter, 90 min.

OG 1057
FG 1016
ABV 5.42%
Apparent attenuation: 71.93%

IBU 13
SRM 5
Mash at 150F (mash time not specified)
Sparge at 165F
Boil Time 90 min.

Pitching temp. 64F
Yeast: Kolsch and lactobacillus

Notes: The original "historic" mash method consisted of an initial mash with water at 113F, followed by a second mash with boiling water. Hops were boiled separately in a small amount of water for 8 to 10 hours, then added to the wort just before it was cooled. When fermentation reached its peak, the wort was transferred from fermentation vessels to barrels with open bungs. When yeast stopped coming out of the bunghole (heh heh...heh), the barrel was bunged and left to condition for 3 to 4 weeks.

 

[OswaldvW]

Subscribed

 

[unionrdr]

Here ya go!

1850 Kotbusser from Pattinson's "The Home Brewer's Guide to Vintage Beer", which I recommend buying if you're interested in historic beer recipes.

Ingredients for 5 gallons:

7.5 lbs. Pils malt
4 lbs. pale wheat malt
1 lb. oats
.10 lb. honey
.10 lb. sugar

1 oz. Spalter, 90 min.

OG 1057
FG 1016
ABV 5.42%
Apparent attenuation: 71.93%

IBU 13
SRM 5
Mash at 150F (mash time not specified)
Sparge at 165F
Boil Time 90 min.

Pitching temp. 64F
Yeast: Kolsch and lactobacillus

Notes: The original "historic" mash method consisted of an initial mash with water at 113F, followed by a second mash with boiling water. Hops were boiled separately in a small amount of water for 8 to 10 hours, then added to the wort just before it was cooled. When fermentation reached its peak, the wort was transferred from fermentation vessels to barrels with open bungs. When yeast stopped coming out of the bunghole (heh heh...heh), the barrel was bunged and left to condition for 3 to 4 weeks.

Looks like you used more wheat malt & oats than I did. And instead of souring the mash, I added 4ozs acidulated malt. This gives that slight tartness that seemed to have been mistaken for souring in my opinion. I used 12ozs flaked oats & 1.3 ozs honey. Sugar was sometimes used, rather than the bit of molasses I did. I used unsulphured golden molasses in mine, .6oz. Also in my case, I used bohemian pils malt, while the regular pils malt was 3lbs of LME, being the pb/pn biab style I do. Rehydrated WL029 yeast along with the acidulated malt gave the bit of tartness the ale was said to have. You can look back at barley-bob's comparison of the flavors, etc of mine vs his for some good descriptions. I thought he described them quite well! Further comparisons would be nice, but I gotta re-brew this one!

 

[Gerry_P]

Looks like you used more wheat malt & oats than I did. And instead of souring the mash, I added 4ozs acidulated malt. etc.

I haven't brewed this myself, this is just the recipe Pattinson came up with after researching the style. I'd be interested to hear how it turns out if anyone tries it.

 

[Barley_Bob]

Thanks for sharing that, Gerry. It's such a good beer. The more I read these, the more I want to tinker. I wish more people would try this if for no other reason than to see how versatile this beer can be. It deserves so much more attention.

 

[unionrdr]

I agree. It ages well too. I still have some left, not sure how much?

 

[Gerry_P]

You guys' enthusiasm is making me want to brew this!

 

[unionrdr]

Do it! It's surprisingly good!

 

[Barley_Bob]

One of us... One of us...

 

[Gerry_P]

One of us... One of us...

Nice "Freaks" reference.

 

[unionrdr]

Hey, not all the freaks come out at night!...