kegging still cider (and cider style wine) and a few other questions

[MMBB]

I went to a cidery in Pittsburgh a few weeks ago (Arsenal, check it out if you can) and they had all of their ciders and wine style ciders on tap. They were pretty busy being it was a Saturday so I didn't want to ask them exactly how they got their cider from the keg to the tap with no carbonation. Can anyone shed some light on this for me?

I am also curious how to sweeten cider in large batches i.e. five gallon keg batches. Do you simply stop fermentation and filter out yeast once desired sweetness is attained or is there another means?

What, exactly, makes a wine cider style? I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this concept. Is it basically wine fermented with cider yeast or is it an apple base with the fruit added in? I am lost here.

Further, they had a blueberry cider style wine that was simply amazing. It was semi-sweet and 10.5% ABV. Does anyone have a recipe I can try out for something similar?

 

[Silentdrinker]

They probably use an enert gas like nitrogen to push the cider but not absorb into the cider like co2.

Apple wine is nothing more than a cider with a higher alcohol content. i want to say the threshold is over 8 or 9%, but don't quote me.

To sweeten cider, look up "back sweetening" there are several methods.

The way I do it is to cold crash, use potassium sorbated then back sweeten with juice concentrate to keep the Abv high or if I want to dilute it, apple juice. Or sometimes I use dissolved sugar. Some will also use wine conditioner.

I keg, so if I want it sparkling, I force carb after I inhibit the yeast and back sweeten. Some will kill the yeast by heating up bottles (there's a stove top method for back sweetening and carbonating by pasteurizing the bottles with heat.) that method kills the yeast. Potassium sorbated will only inhibit yeast growth, so it's important your cider is as clear as possible to keep the yeast from over coming the potassium sorbate.

 

[MMBB]

That is possible but nitrogen will still absorb into the cider just like beer, right (ex. Guinness with beer gas which has nitrogen)? Maybe the cider wasn't still as memory was a little hazy by the time we got to Arsenal. I'll have to email them and ask to be 100% sure. I don't believe the growler my buddy got was sparkling.

 

[Silentdrinker]

That is possible but nitrogen will still absorb into the cider just like beer, right (ex. Guinness with beer gas which has nitrogen)? Maybe the cider wasn't still as memory was a little hazy by the time we got to Arsenal. I'll have to email them and ask to be 100% sure. I don't believe the growler my buddy got was sparkling.

Beer served on nitrogen is still carbonated with c02 and the gas used in a nitrogen system is a 75/25 mix of nitrogen/co2 or sometimes a 70/30 mix. With out some co2, the beer will go flat.

I carbonate my stouts at a 1.8vol then use a 70/30 beer gas mix to
serve.

By the way, there are other inert gases used in keg systems. Argon is another popular one for wine.

 

[MMBB]

That makes sense. I guess with beer gas the nitrogen hitches a ride on the Co2 into the beer whereas with 100% nitrogen there is no process. I read an article a few minutes ago that said using nitrogen was the way to go.

 

[Silentdrinker]

That makes sense. I guess with beer gas the nitrogen hitches a ride on the Co2 into the beer whereas with 100% nitrogen there is no process. I read an article a few minutes ago that said using nitrogen was the way to go.

Nitrogen is inert and is used to push beer. It's not used to dissolve into the solution. Some may dissolve, but it's very minimal. It's the co2 in the mix that dissolves into the beer keeping it from being flat.

To keep stouts carbonated properly, but also push them through long lines in some bars, they will use nitrogen to help. By pushing with pure co2, it will over carbonate. Because they would have to up the psi of the co2.

With a Beer advertised as on nitro, they carbonate the beer very very low, but serve the beer on a high pressure of nitrogen/co2 mix--way higher than you would use for co2 alone. A nitro faucet has small holes in a restrictor plate and the beer is forced through those holes. This froths the almost flat beer up and causes the thick head. That's why nitro beers have a creamy mouth feel and are smooth. The flat beer feels creamy to the mouth plus there is no carbonic acid bite caused by co2. Co2 does cause acidity.

Guinness in cans use a widget. It's nothing more than a ping pong ball with a tiny needle sized hole poked in it. When the beer is put under pressure and sealed, the beer fills the ping pong ball. When you open the can, it bursts out the ball through the tiny hole and creates that same affect the nitrogen faucet causes with the restrictor plates.

Now left hand has their milk stout in bottles on nitro. They spend like $300k on research and development to figure out how to actually dissolve the nitrogen into the beer to create a nitrogen pour in a bottle with out a widget. This requires a very vigorous pour; You dump it hard straight upside down. They don't want to patent the process because they don't want to reveal how they do it.

 

[MMBB]

Ahhh gotcha. I figured that the nitrogen dissolved into the beer which is what gave it the creamy mouthfeel/tiny bubbles/thick head and the tap was different to accomidate the nitrogen in the beer. The more you know!

 

[MarkKF]

I make a blueberry cider. Its simple:
5 gal. apple juice
5 cups sugar
Two cans blueberry pie filling
Large bag of frozen blueberries
Yeast nutrient and ale yeast
Ferment dry it's not very sweet

 

[MarkKF]

Just bottled my blueberry that sat in the secondary for 10 months. It tastes so good still. Stopped at 1.008 with Notty yeast. View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1417030262.726728.jpg