Kegging & Misc Question

[brew703]

I transferred my last batch to my keg this past Friday- it was just 3 gallons. I had it sitting in my ferm chamber since then at 38 degrees. Didn't have time to get the co2 hooked up.
My keezer will be operational towards the end of the week and would like to have this beer fully carbed.

Would it be best to force carb or set at a certain PSI and let it ride until the weekend?

If time is an issue (say 2-3 days), what is the best way to carb? What if you have time (4-7 days or longer) which is the best method to carb?

In the future, I would like to have all my beers carbed in under 7 days. What's the best way to do this?

 

[doug293cz]

I transferred my last batch to my keg this past Friday- it was just 3 gallons. I had it sitting in my ferm chamber since then at 38 degrees. Didn't have time to get the co2 hooked up.
My keezer will be operational towards the end of the week and would like to have this beer fully carbed.

Would it be best to force carb or set at a certain PSI and let it ride until the weekend?

If time is an issue (say 2-3 days), what is the best way to carb? What if you have time (4-7 days or longer) which is the best method to carb?

In the future, I would like to have all my beers carbed in under 7 days. What's the best way to do this?

Start with the beer cold (will be if you cold crashed), then purge the headspace, set at 30 psi and leave for 36 hours. Then vent the headspace and reset to 10-12 psi. If you have less than 5 gal in the keg, then adjust the 36 hours proportionately. So, for 3 gals you would use 36 hrs * 3 gal / 5 gal = ~22 hrs @ 30 psi.

Brew on

 

[brew703]

Another question. I put my co2 tank in my ferm chamber before I left for work today. It's never been used except to purge kegs. It was registering full (in the green) when i left now it shows below the green closer to the red. I turned off the tank so there was no co2 going to the keg and I also turned off the check valve.
Is it normal for the pressure to drop in tank when cold?

 

[doug293cz]

Another question. I put my co2 tank in my ferm chamber before I left for work today. It's never been used except to purge kegs. It was registering full (in the green) when i left now it shows below the green closer to the red. I turned off the tank so there was no co2 going to the keg and I also turned off the check valve.
Is it normal for the pressure to drop in tank when cold?

Yes, that's normal. Most of the CO2 in the tank is liquid, and this liquid is in equilibrium with the CO2 gas in the headspace. Whenever you have a gas in equilibrium with liquid, the gas pressure is solely determined by the temperature (the lower the temp, the lower the equilibrium vapor pressure above the liquid), so the pressure gauge only tells you if there is any liquid at all left in the tank. Once the liquid is gone, then the gauge does represent the amount of CO2 in the tank (which is still affected a little bit by temp.)

Brew on

 

[PADave]

Universal gas law PV=nrT.

 

[doug293cz]

Universal gas law PV=nrT.

Doesn't apply when you have liquid in equilibrium with gas. In this case the pressure is determined by the equilibrium vapor pressure at the current temperature.

Brew on

 

[cmac62]

My beer lines are like 3', no wonder I have a hard time getting anything but foam. I went from the keg to the tap, with a foot or so play. I had no idea this would be a problem. Well I guess I'll have to get some knew lines. I learn something every time I log on. Hope that continues, at the same time getting smarter

 

[brew703]

Got the faucets installed as well as the bulkheads for my gas lines. Next up will be the beer lines.

I'm using Bev Seal Ultra with the JG fittings. With that said, trying to determine line length. We've talked about this a bit in this thread as well as others that I have read.
Seems like the consensus is 1.5 times regular beer line.

Mikes calculator shows to measure from center of keg, which i assume he means the top to the keg to tap nozzle. From center of keg to the end of the shank is approx 12". The nozzle I assume would be the spout where the beer comes out the faucet right? If so that would be approx 12" as I would have to measure going over the collar and down to the spout. Is that right? Assuming these are the measurements required, that would put me at 12.18' of hose. If I change the diameter of the hose to .200 that would put me at 11.07', so approx 1' difference.
Don't understand why someone doesn't come up with a calculator for bev seal ultra tubing. I'm sure quite a few home brewers use this tubing.
Anyway, would you go with 12.18' or 11.07'? Or just go with 15' or so and cut down as needed?

Does the fan placement make a difference?

 

[doug293cz]

No, Mike means to measure from the center of the keg vertically. So, about a foot from the top of a corny keg.

Brew on

 

[day_trippr]

Right, the idea is to get the average "lift", so you use the middle of the keg as the reference point, then measure the vertical (only!) rise to the faucet. If you're running shanks through a collar you can measure from the center of the keg to the shank. Again, don't add or subtract anything to/from the vertical distance.

Also, what are you using for CO2 pressure in Mike's calculator? You need to know this value. Don't use the default if that's not what you're using.
Refer to our favorite carbonation table to figure that out.

Examples:
If I use 12 psi, 0.1875" ID line (3/16"), a 2 foot lift, 10 second pour and the default 1.009 FG, I get 9.91 feet.
If I use 12 psi, 0.2000" ID line (1/5"), a 2 foot lift, 10 second pour and the default 1.009 FG, I get 13.51 feet.

Cheers!

 

[brew703]

I usually use 2.5 vol, so according to the table, CO2 pressure would be 9-10.
going with a co2 pressure of 10, do you think 12.5' is a good starting point or should i go longer?

 

[day_trippr]

I'd go with at least 15'.
It's a lot easier to shorten a line than lengthen it, and the need for extra length when using Ultra has been a consistent story...

Cheers!

 

[Konadog]

I'd go with at least 15'.
It's a lot easier to shorten a line than lengthen it, and the need for extra length when using Ultra has been a consistent story...

Cheers!

That's exactly what I went with, 15' on each line. Never went back and cut any of them down so I don't know what you could get away with. The only problem with the Bev-Seal Ultra Tubing is that it is very stiff. Finding a place that isn't in the way can be a challenge to store it.

 

[brew703]

That's exactly what I went with, 15' on each line. Never went back and cut any of them down so I don't know what you could get away with. The only problem with the Bev-Seal Ultra Tubing is that it is very stiff. Finding a place that isn't in the way can be a challenge to store it.

I should have enough room as I will only have two kegs in my keezer at a time. I'll coil up the slack and wrap some velcro around it to keep the lines neat.

 

[brew703]

First pour from the keezer.
Went with 15' lines. Have a computer fan running 24/7 and have noticed some moisture pooling at the bottom. Gonna have to get a couple Eva Dri Dehumidifiers.
The Inkbird ITC308 is cycling on way too much for my liking with the deferential set at 1. I posted about that in another threadhttps://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/itc308.638865/#post-8147167 .
Temp controller is set at 37 however the pour was 44, a little too warm for me but I'll work with the temp to see if I can get it closed to upper 30's.
The pour is a little slow but not bad. Carbonation is decent but fades quickly. Increased the CO2 to 12 PSI and see what happens.
Overall, satisfied so far.

 

[doug293cz]

What is your compressor delay on the 308 set at? It should be set at its max value (10 min IIRC), and this should reduce cycling. Also, if your beer isn't down to the set temp yet, the controller will cycle more. This will slow down once the beer temp matches the set point.

Brew on

 

[mongoose33]

Where is your temperature probe? If you just let it dangle in the open inside the keezer, it's going to cycle a lot. If you put it in a jar of water, that water won't change temperature nearly as fast as the air does, so your cycling will be lower, much lower.

Earlier I was referring to a 1-degree differential for fermentation, which is what I use for that; with the Inkbird I use to control my keezer, I have it on a 3-degree differential.

 

[PADave]

How long have your kegs been in the keezer? If the temp is set at 37, but it pours at 44, then obviously they are not cooled down yet. Which would also explain the frequent cycling.

 

[brew703]

The probe is attached to a mason jar 3/4 full with water and placed on the compressor hump. It is wrapped in a towel with a gel pack on the outside. I do something similar with my ferm chamber and have had no issues.

The Temp differential is set at 1. I may change that to 2 or 3 and see how that works.

I have one keg that has been in the keezer since Tuesday, so 5 days.

Compressor delay is set to 10.

I'm going to check the beer temp later today and report back.

 

[brew703]

Another issue is the temp differential. There is condensation on the bottom of the keezer that is frozen. When I shoot my keg with my infrared it shows 16*. I know it's not completely accurate since it's metal. I have a hard time believing there is a 16+* temp swing from the hump to the floor of the keezer. I'll get a freezer thermometer today and hang down from the keg to get an idea what the temp is.
I figured with the fan running 24/7 it would even out the temps from top to bottom but I haven't seen that yet.

 

[brew703]

I put a freezer thermometer in yesterday. Put it on the floor next to my keg. Temp there was about 25-30* (Inkbird set at 36). When the compressor turns on and runs that temp drops to 16*. With this large of a temp swing will this effect the integrity of the beer? I don't think the temp swing in the keg is as much.

Moved the thermometer to the hump next to the mason jar where my temp probe is located and that temp read the same as the inkbird.

Problem is when the compressor turns on the sides frost up. When the compressor cycles off, that frost turns to liquid and pools at the front corner of the freezer then freezes when the compressor turns on.

Guess it's not a huge issue just have to figure out a way to manage it. I thought with the fan running 24/7 it wouldn't have that issue. Possible the fan is too small. it's a 51 or 52 CFM and it's mounted on the right side of the keezer. Don't really want to add a 2nd fan so I'll live with the condensation.

 

[mongoose33]

Your fan is fine. All it needs to do is mix the air. What you want it to do is eliminate a large temperature gradient from bottom to top in the freezer.

If you're getting a lot of condensation, either you have an air leak that is letting in warm, moist air which then condenses, or you keep opening the keezer to check it which......lets in warm and moist air which then condenses.

The fact that the thermometer reads 16 degrees doesn't mean the beer is 16. The air cools much faster than the beer, which has considerable thermal mass compared to air.

 

[brew703]

I think it's sealed up tight. I have foam board around the inside of the collar and taped all the seams. Don't see how any air could be getting in unless it's from the camper top moulding I used which fits between the collar and freezer lip. The collar fits tight and don't see how it could be from there. I'll take a look when I get home to see if I can identify any areas were it could be allowing air in.

 

[mongoose33]

You have a lot of empty space in there--which is filled with warm, moist air when you open the lid. I'm guessing that fan is helping you mix that warm air in there at a very nice rate. You might get a smaller fan and put it on the bottom, and either put empty kegs in there to use up some of the volume, or perhaps empty boxes kept off the floor so they don't get wet. There's an awful lot of empty volume there.

Here's the type of fan I use:

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Gpx-Au25r-USB-Fan-Red/52642470

 

[PADave]

Just for the sake of trying, try taping the temp probe to a keg towards the bottom and see what happens.

 

[brew703]

I have 4 kegs. One is in the keezer, one has starsan and the other two are empty at the moment. I could place the empty kegs if that would help. Would filling w/water help or leave empty?
I will have to kegs going at a time, hopefully by next month. I just cant ferment more than one batch at a time. Only have one 6 gal carboy.

 

[day_trippr]

Empty kegs will take up space and displace the equivalent air volume, but they won't affect compressor cycling much.
Filled, otoh, they will provide a huge additional thermal mass, which will affect the cycle time...

Cheers!

 

[mongoose33]

Just for the sake of trying, try taping the temp probe to a keg towards the bottom and see what happens.

I think if he does that he needs to cover the temp probe with foam or other insulation to isolate it from ambient, or it'll probably just take its temp from that.

But it's probably the best idea of all, as it would read the temp of the beer, which ultimately is what we want to be cooled to a certain temperature.

 

[brew703]

I think if he does that he needs to cover the temp probe with foam or other insulation to isolate it from ambient, or it'll probably just take its temp from that.

But it's probably the best idea of all, as it would read the temp of the beer, which ultimately is what we want to be cooled to a certain temperature.

I may do that tomorrow and see what it reads. I did shoot the side of the keg yesterday with my infrared and it read the same as the temp probe on the mason jar. Temp probe attached to the side may read differently.

 

[day_trippr]

This is a plot of the 6 channel temperature logger I run on my keezer.
The purple line (Ch4) is tracking a keg with a probe pinned to the side with an inch thick closed cell foam pad over it.
The controller differential is +/-1°F from Set Point as measured by the keg probe.
There's a 120mm fan keeping the chamber air stirred up.

As you can see the air temperature probes have some severe slope as the compressor kicks on and off.
Meanwhile, the keg channel is nudging along in response. The cycle time here is ~ 5hrs 15 mins.

If I used either of the chamber air probes (upper or lower) one can imagine what would happen: Cycle City...

Cheers!