Keg Thievery or Lucky Find?

[Positronic_Matrix]

I purchased two 1/6 bbl Sanke kegs from a neighborhood acquaintance for a song. One had no brewery markings but the other had a collar stamped with a brewery name, a label, and a keg tracking sticker. I expressed concerns about buying a keg from a microbrewery, as I’ve read that it can hurt their bottom line. The individual said that the brewery went out of business in early 2018 and he couldn’t return the keg if he wanted.

I looked it up and, sure enough, the brewery has indeed gone out of business. Given that the kegs were likely not leased as the brewery name is stamped in steel in the collar, am I in the clear with this keg? I hope so, as it’s an unique piece of brewing history as well.

 

[grampamark]

Hmm. Maybe the cost of replacing stolen kegs was a factor in the brewery’s failure.

 

[day_trippr]

Bottom line, the keg wasn't the property of the acquaintance to sell or even give away.
If the assets of the failed brewery were acquired that keg was no doubt part of the deal...

Cheers!

 

[GnenieGone]

Sometimes brewery sells they're old kegs. I bought 4 from Jester King for $100. I wouldn't be concerned.

 

[bracconiere]

i have three kegs from more beer telling me i'm possessing stolen property......

 

[jack13]

i have three kegs from more beer telling me i'm possessing stolen property......

Lucky! All these years and my kegs have said nary a word.

 

[bracconiere]

Lucky! All these years and my kegs have said nary a word.

mine threaten me every time i rinse and fill them....lol, ominously have me wondering...

 

[twd000]

I'm doing serious time if they ever find all the stolen milk crates in my garage and basement

 

[Robert65]

Still stolen property. If you steal from an individual and they die, it doesn't erase the fact of the theft and subsequent receipt of stolen property, or the status of the goods; their rightful posession passes to the estate or creditors or other claimants. Likewise the brewery, though defunct, has either successors or creditors or other potential claimants. The law will imply legitimate succession of property rights. It doesn't matter how many "sales" or "transfers" intervene, none are valid as no grantor had title to pass. The question you have to ask yourself is, is anyone going to enforce their rights or take action to press charges -- IOW, do I feel lucky? Well, do you, punk? [emoji6]


[EDIT and as for the keg with no visible label, the fact that along the way someone peeled off a label doesn't help any more than grinding off the VIN on a car or the serial number on a firearm does.]

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Stamped or stickers do not always mean stolen. Bluepoint sold a pile of firkins before moving to their new brewery. A brewery that’s out of business or on its way out might sell kegs too. Theft is of course is wrong. I would think that a seller would be able to provide a plausible account of how they acquired what they are selling.

 

[Robert65]

Good point, @Hoppy2bmerry. Compare and contrast corny kegs. Since they have long since been abandoned by the soft drinks industry, even though some may remain in circulation that were originally stolen, the presumption must be that any currently available have been sold on through legitimate channels. OTOH since Sanke kegs are still universally used by breweries, the opposite must hold, that in the absence of proof of legal purchase, all those in private circulation must be presumed stolen. A bill of sale will save you any trouble.

 

[triethylborane]

Still stolen property. It doesn't matter how many "sales" or "transfers" intervene, none are valid as no grantor had title to pass. The question you have to ask yourself is, is anyone going to enforce their rights or take action to press charges [emoji6]


[EDIT and as for the keg with no visible label, the fact that along the way someone peeled off a label doesn't help any more than grinding off the VIN on a car or the registration on a firearm does.]

Generally a criminal does not hold a transferable title to tangible property obtained through a criminal act, but nothing in the facts definitively states the keg was obtained criminally. Its possible while the neighbor was a bailee of the keg, the brewery went out of business. Happens.

Enforcing rights via a chose in action often has costs that exceed the returns and going after kegs in a multitude of bailees possession of a failed brewery fall in that realm, not like enforcing a patent or suing just a few individuals/persons involved in a probate matter.

And "pressing charges" isnt a right an individual has, only the state.

 

[day_trippr]

^Weak^

Nobody's gonna lose sleep over this, including the OP, but from this distance it appears there's a keg that belonged to a corporation that has since gone defunct. There's clearly no legal conveyance here, the keg is most likely the property of an acquiring company or a lien holder, but as there's little motivation to resolve that, there's just inertia...

Cheers!

 

[triethylborane]

^Weak^

Nobody's gonna lose sleep over this, including the OP, but from this distance it appears there's a keg that belonged to a corporation that has since gone defunct. There's clearly no legal conveyance here, the keg is most likely the property of an acquiring company or a lien holder, but as there's little motivation to resolve that, there's just inertia...

Cheers!

Weak? You half-wittedly regurgitated my comment in lesser form.

 

[madscientist451]

I'm doing serious time if they ever find all the stolen milk crates in my garage and basement

I wondering why anyone would want to advertise the fact that they are a thief?

I'm going to answer the OPS question by saying there's really no way to tell if the kegs in question are stolen or not.

Everyone has individual tastes and everyone has an individual threshold of determining what is right or wrong. If you are OK with being a thief, or are OK with being in possession of possible stolen property, that's up to you.

 

[tmendick]

I wondering why anyone would want to advertise the fact that they are a thief?

I'm going to answer the OPS question by saying there's really no way to tell if the kegs in question are stolen or not.

Everyone has individual tastes and everyone has an individual threshold of determining what is right or wrong. If you are OK with being a thief, or are OK with being in possession of possible stolen property, that's up to you.

If the brewery is closed, what is he supposed to do? As for the other keg, there's probably something that could be done to get it back into the proper circulation (possible its a MicroStar or other leasing company that can be dropped at several places usually)

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

I have confirmed that the individual was in possession of this keg when the business shut down. He did not discover the issue until trying to return the keg, finding that the relatively small brewery had shut down months prior. He cannot get it filled anywhere else, because the stainless steel collar is stamped with the defunct brewery name.

He had an interesting take on all of this. He said only in the US could someone get cheated out of a deposit, left with an unusable keg that cannot be filled, and simultaneously be called a thief. He wished me the best of luck tracking down asset owners to get a deposit back for a keg with no resale value (due to the stamp). He laughed at me like the Chinese business owner who sold a kid a mogwai/gremlin.

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

I found some information. It looks like creditors sold the inventory of Schubros Brewery to Rabin Worldwide, an auction house. They held an on-line auction on 17 May 2018. Interestingly, none of the keg inventory sold. Here’s a link to the old auction page:

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/timed/rabin/catalogue-id-rabin10054

I wonder if all those kegs were destroyed and sold as scrap steel. At $0.21 per pound a 16.5 pound 1/6 bbl keg would be worth about $3.47.

I also found another thread, where Schubros workers spent 2-3 days taking the barbs out of plastic 1/2 bbl in order to send them to plastic recycling. I couldn’t tell from context whether or not this was related to their shutdown or they were just getting rid of worn plastic 1/2 bbl from their inventory.

As an aside, given that no one made a bid on the kegs, an auction might be an incredible way to get cheap 1/6 bbl kegs. Stamped kegs have no value to other businesses but they have value to home brewers.

 

[triethylborane]

I have confirmed that the individual was in possession of this keg when the business shut down. He did not discover the issue until trying to return the keg, finding that the relatively small brewery had shut down months prior. He cannot get it filled anywhere else, because the stainless steel collar is stamped with the defunct brewery name.

He had an interesting take on all of this. He said only in the US could someone get cheated out of a deposit, left with an unusable keg that cannot be filled, and simultaneously be called a thief. He wished me the best of luck tracking down asset owners to get a deposit back for a keg with no resale value (due to the stamp). He laughed at me like the Chinese business owner who sold a kid a mogwai/gremlin.

If he gave a deposit for the keg, he had a contract with the brewery to possess the keg and the creditors of the defunct brewery acquire the contracts, such as this one. The statute of frauds of any state or at common law do not apply, so no written memorialization is required. His possession of the keg is prima facie evidence of the contract, and if he couldnt prove a deposit, he could be a bailee.

It is interesting given scant facts that individuals would default to him having stolen property or having committed a criminal act, but that is a lay view. And perhaps a bit of virtue signaling.

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

If he gave a deposit for the keg, he had a contract with the brewery to possess the keg and the creditors of the defunct brewery acquire the contracts, such as this one. The statute of frauds of any state or at common law do not apply, so no written memorialization is required. His possession of the keg is prima facie evidence of the contract, and if he couldnt prove a deposit, he could be a bailee.

It is interesting given scant facts that individuals would default to him having stolen property or having committed a criminal act, but that is a lay view. And perhaps a bit of virtue signaling.

Your comment is incredibly insightful. You demonstrate a knowledge of law that is well beyond my understanding. I greatly appreciate your contribution, as it was very important to me to not financially harm a microbrewery nor operate in a legal grey space by purchasing a used keg for home brewing.

In fact, given that almost all of the kegs from Schubros were not transferred in auction, I’m excited to have rescued one. It’s a bit of Northern California microbrew history.

 

[Soulshine2]

I'm doing serious time if they ever find all the stolen milk crates in my garage and basement

you probably removed that mattress tag too didnt you...you rebel !!

 

[mdscole]

This forum and the keg Nazis...
If you don't have a certificate of authenticity signed by the CEO of the brewery while in possession of a keg with any marking, you are hereby waived of all due process and shall proceed directly to death row. Sorry you bought a malt mill right before your confession. You will never get to use it.

 

[odie]

Umm...deposit? propane tanks are the same way...CO2 tanks as well...the deposit usually is at least what the container is worth...

Whoever got the keg originally paid a deposit to the brewery or distributor...that keg was paid for in my opinion...

I never, ever purchased a keg of beer or a tank of propane, CO2 or nitro without either paying a hefty deposit or swapping out an empty one...

 

[odie]

there is a brewery down here whining on facebook right now about loosing their kegs...well keep the deposit then...

I would say something on their facebook but I really like their beer...so I will shut my pie hole...

 

[firerat]

Umm...deposit? propane tanks are the same way...CO2 tanks as well...the deposit usually is at least what the container is worth...

Whoever got the keg originally paid a deposit to the brewery or distributor...that keg was paid for in my opinion...

I never, ever purchased a keg of beer or a tank of propane, CO2 or nitro without either paying a hefty deposit or swapping out an empty one...

I would think the deposit is what the container is worth too. Isn't that sort of the point? How much is a sanke keg worth when you buy a pallet of them? (honest question as I really don't know)

I have a 1/6 sanke I obtained because the dimwits at Total Wine refused to give my deposit back because I didn't have a receipt.

K, thanks. I doubt I could have bought one for $35 (I think it was $35) anywhere else. I didn't really want one at the time, but meh....

Makes getting fresh kegs easy now as I have a swap and don't worry about deposits.​

 

[odie]

They probably are really that cheap. Remember they buy in bulk. Think the price of a bottle of beer at the bar and then the same beer in a six pack at the store.

 

[day_trippr]

The best volume price I've found for 1/2 barrel SS sanke-D kegs is $97, and you have to buy by the pallet to get that price. Shipping is extra, of course.

So, a $35 keg deposit isn't close to covering loss...

Cheers!

 

[bleme]

I found some information. It looks like creditors sold the inventory of Schubros Brewery to Rabin Worldwide, an auction house. They held an on-line auction on 17 May 2018. Interestingly, none of the keg inventory sold. Here’s a link to the old auction page:

https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/timed/rabin/catalogue-id-rabin10054

If I am reading it right, the $250,000 bid for Lot 1 included all the other lots (including the kegs) except the keg washer.

 

[Positronic_Matrix]

If I am reading it right, the $250,000 bid for Lot 1 included all the other lots (including the kegs) except the keg washer.

Thank you. I missed that.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

I purchased two 1/6 bbl Sanke kegs from a neighborhood acquaintance for a song. One had no brewery markings but the other had a collar stamped with a brewery name, a label, and a keg tracking sticker. I expressed concerns about buying a keg from a microbrewery, as I’ve read that it can hurt their bottom line. The individual said that the brewery went out of business in early 2018 and he couldn’t return the keg if he wanted.

I looked it up and, sure enough, the brewery has indeed gone out of business. Given that the kegs were likely not leased as the brewery name is stamped in steel in the collar, am I in the clear with this keg? I hope so, as it’s an unique piece of brewing history as well.

You paid a fair price for the keg. If larceny was involved in the ownership trail you can prove you did not have intent to steal the keg.

It is possible the keg was originally stolen from the brewery. It's also possible the keg was excessed by the brewery and purchased by the previous owner. You simply don't know. Keep your receipt, brew on and don't worry about it. The worst that could happen is if someone with legal title to the brewery's assets found the keg and went to court to recover. You can prove you paid for it. In order to be successful they would need to prove the particular keg in your possession was originally stolen. In that case ( remember litigation cost would likely exceed the value of the keg unless you have several thousand kegs) their recover would be the return of the keg.

I have an acquaintance that runs a bar. He pays a deposit on each keg he acquires from the distributor. In reality we does a one for one swap once he has established a pipeline. It's most likely IMHO that the brewery went belly up, the kegs were abandoned in the pipeline and whoever was caught with an empty keg and no brewery to return it to simply sold it to recover their deposit.

 

[Horseflesh]

I randomly ended up with a Bud keg in a pile of stuff I purchased from a homebrewer exiting the hobby. After reading this thread, I've become concerned about the keg's history. Things could have gotten pretty ugly, but I saved myself a lot of trouble by burning down my house and fleeing to Nambia, the one place beyond ABI's reach. If anyone comes around asking about a guy with a keg, you don't know me.

 

[fastengine]

Not a keg, but a close story. About 25 years ago a beer distributor closed up and had an auction. My father and a friend bought 6 co2 tanks at the auction. 15 years later I went to fill one for my welder and the idiot at Airgas told me it was a stolen tank and I wasn't allowed to fill it. I told him where and how they were purchased but he kept arguing with me and threatened to keep the tank. I grabbed it from him, told him my name and said to look up my account, and then close it, I won't be back. He lost a lot of sales and I have not returned there since.. Two other spots in town to fill tanks and they NEVER give me any grief about my legally purchased tanks, and one is used for my kegged beer.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Don't worry about it. Someone payed the deposit already. Think of it like a can or bottle. If the breweries deposit isn't enough to cover the container it's the breweries fault. Pretty simple concept. Cheers